Spindle control from SB3

[dubliner]

I noticed a few posts referencing spindle control & I saw it on the tools list in the latest SW version. Do you still need an RS 485 to do it?

[ed_lang]

Hi Neville,

Yes, you do need to communicate with the VFD via serial and the USB to serial converter is required. Give ShopBot a call, they have one and it works real good. I am putting mine to good use each day.

[knight_toolworks]

unless you can have it change when you run a toolpath I can't see that it is a big deal. if you forget to change it or need to slow or speed up while running a file is it any use? now that my vfd shows the speed it is not a big deal to change the speed manually.

[ed_lang]

You set the speed in the tool database so when you toolpath a project, the VFD is set and ready to go.

You can also change the speed on the VFD with the up and down arrows just like you do now. You just do not start and stop the spindle with the VFD.

I find this feature very handy and I am looking forward to the tool changer, which is the next logical step in the chain.

[srwtlc]

If you use VCP and maybe Parts Works, you can have the file change the speed for files that use the same cutter.

Meaning that if you have several toolpaths that are saved into one file that use the same cutter, you can vary the speed throughout the file.

The post processor file needs to be edited so that the section for "Begin New Segment" looks like this...

+---------------------------------------------------
+ Commands output for a new segment - toolpath
+ with same toolnumber but maybe different feedrates
+---------------------------------------------------

begin NEW_SEGMENT
""
"'Toolpath Name: [TOOLPATH_NAME]"
""
"TR,[S]"
"MS,[FC],[FP]"
""

+---------------------------------------------

[dubliner]

could you write a warm up routine, hit one button so to speak when you go to the shop & it'll run up the revs?

[srwtlc]

Yes, I have one set up as a Custom Cut.

It goes like this...

MSGBOX(Ready to warm up the spindle?,4,Spindle Warm-Up)
If &msganswer = NO Then END

TR,9000
PAUSE 2
SO,1,1 'Spindle on
PAUSE 120
TR,13500
PAUSE 120
TR,18000
PAUSE 120
SO,1,0 'Spindle Off

MSGBOX(Spindle is now warmed up and ready to use,64,Spindle Ready)

END

[knight_toolworks]

what does it take in hardware to get spindle speed control with a HSD spindle?

[ed_lang]

Scott, Add a FP for the XY Zero and the tool is ready to load material, set Z and cut! I love my spindle warm up routine in the morning.

Steve, USB to Serial converter. Connected to the VFD and the control computer. ShopBot can fix you right up.

[bstern]

Steve,

I talked with Ryan yesterday and there is one other hardware option. You can use RS232 but you have to unplug the control panel on the Yaskawa drive. Your display and the SB3 software will show RPM and you can control the RPM through the sb3 software as well. I do not feel I will be giving up anything as the display and controls on the drive are hard to read and use anyway.

How to do it is in the Yaskawa "modbus communication manual". It seems the hardware needed is just a RJ-45 to Db9 converter ($6.99 from Amazon, RJ45 cable (same as any eithernet cable) and, if you need it, a USB to Serial cable, ($8.99 Amazon). I have them on order and will report back here what the result is.

WARNING: Read the manual carefully. It states that if you plug the RJ45 cable into the Ethernet port of your computer damage will result to the drive.

[srwtlc]

Steve, I bought this (http://www.rs485.com/fullphotos/iusb24at006full.html) RS485 board and the required USB cable and put it in a project box from Radio Shack. The place with the RS485 board also has an enclosure.

Then you just need some two conductor wire (I used the extra brown Beldin (?) wire that came with my machine) and connect it as stated in the readme file in Ryan Pattersons "Yaskawa VFD Control" program in ShopBot Labs. You don't use that program though as you can now use the new Virtual Tool to control it along with the TR command.

This was done before ShopBot came out with there version and they may now have other solutions as stated above, but it works just the same.

[3imoh]

question...If I hooked up the rs485 board could I still use the vfd control panel in tandem with SB3? I have a remote vfd control for my yaskawa, and I like being able to dial the speed in with the pot, and montitoring the amp draw of the spindle...

[ed_lang]

I can not comment on the remote as I don't have one. But, I can say that I am able to change speed via the front panel of the VFD. I cannot start or stop the spindle from the front of the VFD.

[knight_toolworks]

I wonder if I can make a y cable so I can see the vfd display and access the speed control on my computer.
can't you just use a Ethernet to usb converter verses going from the ethernet to serial to usb?

[bstern]

Steve,

WARNING - The VFD control panel is a serial connection not Ethernet! It uses the RJ45 connector for SERIAL- RS232 communications. The Yaskawa manual states that if you plug this into an Ethernet port you will damage the drive!!!!

The use of RJ45 cables for serial is not that uncommon. Always read the manual.
Please read the Yaskawa manual before attempting this.

That being said. I did some checking and found that you can get an RJ45 switch for about $20.00. This would probably work for you.

My thinking is that the only time you need the control panel would be for changing settings. Something I have never had to do. I have been told the SB software will display the RPM (full not shortened) and you are able to set the speed from the software as well. I don't think I will miss my hard to read - difficult to set control panel.

I got all my stuff in and hope to get some time today to try to hook it up to the RS232 port.
I will report back to let you all know how I did.

[knight_toolworks]

I know it is not Ethernet but it is handy to sue that term. but I wonder if you can go directly from the Ethernet cable to a usb connection? skip going from the ethernet cable to serial to usb?

[bstern]

Though it is not uncommon for RJ45(also used for Ethernet) to be used as a connector for RS232 it is not very common either. I doubt you could find an adapter. You could spend hours searching or just spend $6.99 for the adapter and be done with it


If you have an Serial(RS232) port on your computer you could just go to it but you would need a RJ45 to DB9 adapter.

Not many computers have a serial port anymore. The real issue is going from the Serial-RS232 port on the VFD to something on your computer. Most of us just have USB so some sort of a conversion is necessary.

Hope this helps

[knight_toolworks]

so I have to go go from the rj45 to serial to serial to usb? cant skip the serial connection?

[Ryan Patterson]

As Bob states it is possible to use a RS232 to the drive. There are a couple problems in doing so.
1: you will not have any visible read out on the drive. This would not be a problem if the read out was only for the RMP. It also displays any faults the drive may have. If you disconnect the display and there is a problem with the drive the spindle may still work and change the RMP from the computer, you will not know that something has gone wrong with the drive and may cause more problems.

RS485 would be the best way to connect to the drive.

[dubliner]

Hey Ryan, When will they be available?

[beacon14]

OK, I'm a little embarrassed to admit I've been following this thread for weeks and still don't get it. I see the RJ-45 option but I don't want to lose the display or the ability to adjust spindle speed directly from the VFD during cutting.

What I don't see is a serial connection at the VFD. Can someone explain to me in simple terms how I am supposed to connect my computer to my VFD?

8974

[Gary Campbell]

David...
The Option that is being developed by Ryan at ShopBot uses a USB to rs-485 adapter. This adds an additional comm port. The SB3x software will use this comm port to communicate with the VFD to control the spindle speed. As mentioned above, there are other options with rs-232. There seems to be an adapter from most of the serial interfaces to RJ45 (network) to simplify cabling. I am going to test a rs-485 pci card with a DB9 port. I havnt decided whether to adapt to rj-45 or just use a DB9 serial cable to connect to the VFD. With any luck I will have the time to get it installed before our Camp this weekend.

RS485 is another serial interface option for machine or device control that allows many more devices on the same bus and over much longer distances. This apparently is the OEM interface from the VFD Mfgr. I hope this helps.
Gary

[Gary Campbell]

David.. I hit the wrong button...
lift the green wire terminal covers. the 4 we are interested in are marked R-, R+, S-, S+. Ryan has a short .txt file that explains the connections. SO... USB from computer to usb/rs485 adapter. 2 wires from adapter card to the vfd. That should just about do it.
Gary

[bstern]

The method I was following for RS232 was basically removing the control panel from its RS232 port and hooking your computer to it.

I had not taken into consideration the display of error codes. (newbie)

How serious is this? How often has anyone gotten an error code from there Yaskawa VFD?

I would not want to save $150.00 just to end up putting my machine at risk.

[Brady Watson]

My question is this: How useful is controling spindle RPM from the computer anyway? If it is just to get the VFD control panel closer to your computer, then they sell a keypad extension cord that allows you to pull off the VFD control pad and bring it over to your computer area. This is one of those things that seems pretty neat (and that is not to take anything away from those who have invested time & energy into getting it to work) - but, to me, it doesn't seem all that useful and introduces another headache into the mix.

So - what real world usefulness does it offer?

-B

[knight_toolworks]

easy warmups? it is a lazy factor really. I will only do it if it is not a hassle. but hey you got a computer controlled machine might was well do it all with the computer if you can.

[bstern]

Hi Brady,

I would like the option of slowing the move speed as well as spindle speed (keep proper chip load) when cutting the onion skin on small parts.
I gen my own code so I can check the size of a part to see if I need to onion skin.

I only have 10hp Fuji with about 9" vac.

(if I only had Becky)

[bcammack]

In an iterative, production environment such as ours, it reduces the operator training considerably and adds more control over the process.

[zeykr]

Seems you could also create tool settings in your software tool database to have specific speeds and feeds set that work well for certian materials or different types of cuts.

I.e 1.25 90v Redwood could be different than 1.25 90v Oak or a profile cut could be run at a different feed and speed than an area clear using the same bit.

[Brady Watson]

Well...as with everything, everybody has their own system of doing things. I personally like full manual control of the spindle at all times - of for no other reason than I have been doing it this way since I bought my Bot 6yrs ago. It is no trouble at all to bump up the spindle speeds as the tool is cutting via the VFD keypad. I think the VFDs function perfectly as is...to rely on the PC to command a spinning tool is not something that I personally want, since it is often that the machine has to run overnight doing large 3D files, and the last thing I want is to add another layer of 'gotcha' to the mix.

Bob - you actually want to decrease chipload when cutting off your onion skin, not maintain it. Higher RPM will help reduce part movement at the last second. Then again - a BradyVac II mask will allow you to cut about as fast as you want - if the job warrants a vac jig.

Even though I may not agree with many reasons for doing this personally - thanks for chiming in and letting me know about the benefits many find useful. In my shop, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a mantra I often adhere to.

-B

[srwtlc]

Along with the warm-up routine, I quite often have a file (created in VCP) that will use the same tool for several different toolpaths and it's nice to be able to change the spindle rpm, if so desired, throughout the file. As in the case of an onion skin, I'll cut the profile of the part at a feed/rpm combination that gives good chipload (faster feedrate) and then follow up by moving in on the profile approximately 0.018" and to a depth that takes out the skin with a higher rpm and slow feedrate to give a finished edge that needs little to no clean-up or sanding.

With the RS485 option, you can use either the computer (with the spindle speed control VT) or the VFD keypad. The computer (with TR,16000 in a file for example) will change or set the speed to that speed and if so desired while the file is cutting, you can also change the speed with the VFD keypad.

So, you can have the best of both worlds. ;-)