Sign Material

[3ps]

I was wondering if any of you experienced sign people could fill me in on a cheap way to get into outdoor signs. I do not have the money to put into the commonly used sign materials(HDU) or have them readily available in my area. For this reason I want to stick to something I can get at Lowes or HD. Maybe glue up 2x4's or has anyone tried mdf. I have a friend wanting me to help him with a sign for a salon he and his wife owns. I would like to do some raised letters on a back ground to give it some dimension. Thanks for any help!

Doug

[cartar929]

Doug some PVC sheets might be a better solution, I wouldn't choose MDF. MDF would take a lot of work to make it strong enough to with stand any sort of weather elements.

What is your budget for this project?

[3ps]

I am not sure on how much he wants to put in to it. I just found MDO 1/2 one good side for 38.00. I thought about using two pieces of it with maybe 1.5 " spacer between the two for thickness and then edge it with 1" painted material? the sign will be two sided. Thanks

Doug

[joewino]

You're probably not going to like my answer....

You have already begun a reputation for cheap signs and you haven't even made one yet. Materials are not what determines the selling cost of a sign because it's the design that is most important.

Your customer is going to pay for the materials through the cost of the sign, so price the work so that you can use the appropriate materials.

I wouldn't suggest using anything but PVC (at least .5" thick), MDO, or HDU. Other substrates are available (like aluminum) but would be more difficult for a beginner.

If you are going to get into the sign business, begin by doing the best work you can with the best materials possible. You can always go down on your prices but it is very hard to go up once you start getting clients.

Lowering your prices just to get work is a downward spiral that ends with you going out of business. There is always someone willing to do the job cheaper than you...but they won't last long.

Good luck. Keep us informed as to how the sign business works for you.

[ghostcreek]

Doug, some wise words from Raymond. Stay away from MDF, nice for experiments and trying out designs (dulls bits too!). Look into premade sign blanks. Perfect plank makes a great product at a great price. I am not a sign maker, but have made signs. There is a wealth of information to be gotten from Guys like Raymond & Dick Akers. Using their knowledge will save you tons of time and money! But by all means experiment, but not on a product that will be on display for all to see. Just my 2.5 cents. Let us know how and what you do, but do it!

[VisionAccomplished]

[FONT="Times New Roman"][SIZE="5"]

I am new to this site and seek professional opinions from this thread.

As a former local government administrator I now consult with governments and developers. We requested quotes for outdoor community welcome signs mounted to pvc posts installed in cement, 4' x 8' HDU rot resistant synthetic with hand carved lettering, 23k gold leaf. Prior experience seems to confirm that these sign boards withstand wheather elementts and the hand carved gold leaf retains (even improves) its shimmer quality.

One sign-maker suggested that HDU with MDO backing is inferior to Komacel for outdoor signs mounted between posts. However, his Komacel sign will not be hand carved (CNC machine). Another indicated that when following the correct procedure and application, HDU signs will not crack, which both he and the manufacturer will guarantee. He also suggested that non-HDU\MDO material can warp when between posts or mounted incorrectly. Two also reinforced the observation that hand carved lettering is superior to machine routing.

I would like opinions on these observations made between HDU hand carved gold leaf verses a CNC machine carved Komacel for outdoor mounting between posts? Please assume that all other variables are equal and that the signs will be guaranteed if cracking occurs.

Thank you.

[gc3]

Have Joe make 'em

Done deal.

GC

[carlcnc]

Tom
with all due respect,
why would specs call absolutely for handcarved?? If the purpose of these signs is to say Welcome[sic] then cnc carved should be fine. Your main concerns appear be final product appearance [hence the gold leaf],and structural integrity.
If someone in the committee is adamant about " handcarved" then they either A;
don't know what they are talking about or B; have an agenda.
As per Komacel[pvc] vs HDU. both have their pluses and minuses.
properly installed neither should crack/split/
Be danged if I would warranty goldleaf over pvc for an exterior sign though. too much thermal induced movement.
good luck
Carl

[joe]

Thank you Gene for the nice complement.

Very interesting post Tom. I wish every Shopbot fellow has a chance to read it.

Your questions are not unusual and very thoughtful. I'd suggest you first look for sign artists making the kind of signs you're interested in purchasing. They can to answer your questions about materials and techniques.

If I knew your location, I'd be glad to suggest names of shops in your erea. If you find someone in your community that may be best for both of you. But most of all, find someone who is making the kind of product that satisfies your needs. The materials and techniques will fall in line.

You have some excellent sign artist to choose from. Few of them are paid what they are truly worth. It a smörgåsbord of talent and materials.

Materials: Our country is so large, having all sorts of weather conditions. That should be taken consideration. When making signs for coastal area's with ocean conditions you would use different materials than arid, Death Valley locations.

Good luck with your project.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[dakers]

tom, the left sign is hdu with gold leaf. the shimmer is best when the router bit or carving is not a deep V for light reflection.
the hdu broke from vandals.
the sign on the right is color core with corian printed inlay and some special routing effects.
we have a company that only does park and government jobs like this.
we do not like to sell hdu for city entrance because of problems like this.
we like the signs to last a minimum of 15 years but we try to warn about material weaknsess and let the buyer beware.

What joe told you is good info for you moving forward. I am just giving you some info from experience. the hdu is all matthews acrylic poly with gold leaf done with art cam.

[VisionAccomplished]

Thank you all for your responses and insight.

First, original specs were based on prior successes in nearby communities where 4' x 8' hand carved Welcome signs were installed. That set a baseline for comparison. Specs are not absolute, but if changed, the change cannot be so much to skew the comparison.

Since the proposal request is from a government purchase from public funds, the government is required to seek proposals from qualified sign makers and cannot simply pick their favorite sign making artist if that supplier is not the "best" overall, considering all factors. Although not based on price alone, price is significant where there are multiple qualified suppliers. Here, quality of sign appearance and longevity of retaining that quality are also important.

When one of the sign makers quotes signs made from Komacel with machine routed lettering, instead of HDU that is hand carved, comparison could be skewed. Since this is a competitive process, it makes sense to gain neutral opinions from professionals who do not have a possible self interest.

The location at issue is in the center of the eastern end of Nassau County, Long Island. When looking on a map that is probably at about the 75% mark on the western end of all of LI. The potential bidders are all qualified veteran sign makers.

Based on your comments, it appears that there is not a clear selection between the two options, so price may end up to be the determining factor.

Thank you again.

Tom

[dakers]

Tom,
I like the approach you are trying to go in.
maybe you can prevent some of the things i have experienced from happening to others.

In working with parks and government i have found that they either give us a book size document with all the specs, warranties and hundreds hoops to jump through and contracts to sign or they just say how much for a sign like this and they attache a photo or drawing with no specs.

the bids where we have to spend a day reading the specs and jumping through the hoops seems to much like gambling or speculation. it is easier to buy a house than bid some of these. and i find many of the written specs are in error for the real world but they refuse to change them. case in point is we looked at a huge job for National Park in Maine. probably over $100,000. they said 10 year minimum warranty. the manufacturer of the product they want me to use say ten year maximum warranty. Ten year maxiumum warranty means that it could fail anytime. they state if the sign fails at 9.5 years and i do not replace it then i have signed a document that states that they can have another company remake them and send me the bill. So i told them it was written wrong and nothing was done to correct it because the wheels are already rolling.

On the other end of the scale the bids we do with just a photo are also speculation because there are no specs and anyone can quote anything and they often do not care because the person who is making the decision has to answer to someone else and they do not know the difference between 15lb hdu and 18lb hdu, the type of paints and many more things.
so i send them an email and say "why dont you let me write the specs for you" and they say ok but normally the deadlines are so tight because that they want the sign installed within a month from bid. they just figured out at the last minute that they needed the sign.

so we usually lose both types of bids for different reasons.

You sound like a person who wants to try to do things the right way and i hope you succeed and present a fair package for those who bid so you can compare apples to apples.
we usually see the lowest bidder win unless we have worked with them before.

I love simple specs that show the exact material, sizes, thickness, type of paint and color that we can match, type of hardware and how installed, type of posts, if slotted then how deep, etc, letter styles, if a logo then hopefully they vector art or high res bitmaps, if wood is used they let us know what type and how they want the grain, etc. shipping addresses and info that shippers need if the sign is to be shipped, who pays and how soon will they pay.etc.

we have had bids for parks that have said we would be paid sometime within 6 months. We have had shipments refused because the people in the office did not know the shipment was coming. color issues have been a problem as well.

[dvmike]

I had some questions about customers who wanted certain things when I started my sign shop .
I like to work with HDU when possible to keep production time down, and avoid building boards from wood . But the bottom line is what the customer wants.
If the customer wants a handcarved sign , it may be just for that reason. Some people love the art aspect as much as the message . In that case the chisel marks and hands on craftsmanship are the key.
I will be honest and tell you that I have made 1 sign that I truly didn't like. But I made it exactly to the customer's specs.
The most important spec to the customer is that it had to contain an angel that he gave me a photo of. He wanted the angel carved in by hand and only .250 to .300 " deep, and he wanted it done by hand ?
When I was done I really wasn't crazy about the results ,but he was ecstatic and loved it , because it was just what he wanted.
In the end that's what it's about .
Don't get me wrong ! I still have tons to learn in the sign buisness and I can't hold a candle to the art that Joe and some of you others create ! But it is all learned by lessons , and that was one I had to learn.
But the biggest thing I learned was there is always a reason. The reason for the sign with the certain angel was that his daughter had passed away and the angel was a sketch she had drawn before her death.

[joe]

Mike,

Thanks for the nice complement.

We all have tons to learn. That's what keeps me going. When I take on a new project, no matter how big or small, I seldom consider materials or techniques at the start. And I try to stay away from, how much it will cost. Those are important issue but I don't let them get in the way up front. That comes later.

My main concern is how to blow the socks off. When I wrap my mind around the final concept is when I start figuring how to pull it off. Some compromises may need to occur but the job is how do I pull off the concept.

Every job I take on deserves to be consdiered for the portfolio.

I encourage everyone to shoot high on every little step. It's the little steps which make a project sing.