I need a little advice, please. [Archive]

tuck

04-25-2010, 01:54 PM

An old army buddy that lives up in Minnesota wants to commission me to make him a sign for his new hunting cabin. He's a big deer hunter and here's what I've come up with:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/JeffWhiteTail.jpg

The sign will be about 46" in diameter, 2.5D routed HDU, perhaps backed with some polymetal. The deer will be raised, with the background routed down and the scenery painted on. What has me in a quandary is how to do the cross hairs I've added to the design. My thoughts are to cut a round piece of plexiglass to cover the inside circle and do the cross hairs with vinyl. I could silicone and screw the plexi to the HDU and make it air tight, but what concerns me is the possibility of condensation building up between the plexi and the HDU. Also, aren't some types of clear plexi prone to yellow over time when exposed to the sun?

Any thoughts are appreciated.

bleeth

04-25-2010, 05:15 PM

Mark:

Lexan will not yellow. Others may come up with a totally different approach, but to go with your acrylic concept I would "float" it off the sign on studs (probably 3 for stability) and not try to make it airtight.

Your artwork is pretty doable as more relief work than you seem to have in mind.

This is a big sign. It will be a real attention getter. I hope more people than your friends see it!!

JohnG

04-25-2010, 09:15 PM

Dave, I like your concept of adding the "standoffs" for the acrylic. One correction though.....lexan is one of the worst choices for yellowing.

tuck

04-25-2010, 09:20 PM

Hey Dave you're right. Stand-offs would have been the way to go. However, upon further discussion with my old buddy Spike and a more thorough understanding of his budget, we've decided to use a digital print for the image of the deer: (clickable images)

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/th_SpikeBlank.jpg (http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/?action=view&current=SpikeBlank.jpg)

I'll use 3/4" PVC now instead of HDU, and I still get to do some carving and he'll have a nice sign for his cabin. Only thing I'm worried about is that some drunk hunter will come along and take a shot at it!

I gotta tell y'all something funny while I'm at it. He had expressed to me that he wanted a white tail buck with a big rack on the sign. I went searching through my files for all of the deer I had and first sent him this:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/th_Spike.jpg (http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/?action=view&current=Spike.jpg)

He replied back and said "I really like the design, Tuck, but I want a white tail buck,...NOT AN ELK!"

Hahaha! Oh well,.......I'm not a hunter and it looked like a deer to me!:confused:

tuck

04-25-2010, 09:23 PM

Dave, I like your concept of adding the "standoffs" for the acrylic. One correction though.....lexan is one of the worst choices for yellowing.

That's what I thought, but I rarely use plastics and don't really know.

JohnG

04-25-2010, 09:35 PM

Yeah, the lexan is a great product, but it does look like **** after a few years in the sun. A high impace SG Acrylic is a good compromise between strength and UV fading.

bleeth

04-25-2010, 09:56 PM

There are modern Lexan polycarbs that withstand yellowing so well they come with a 10 year guarentee. GE Polymer is one manufacturer.
The world of plastics is ever-changing! FYI-If you happen to have older Lexan that has yellowed there are restoration kits at your local auto supply store that reportedly work wonders.

GlenP

04-25-2010, 10:35 PM

tuck

04-25-2010, 11:15 PM

Nice design Mark. I think it would look really cool if the outside border of the sign was black and make it look like a scope. I am no hunter so I am assuming they are black. Even add a extra inline or something to give it a realism of looking through a scope. Just a thought, love the design. You have some great design skills.
Maybe you better put a bullet proof backer on it in case of your drunkin hunter....what a minute are hunters allowed to be drunk!:eek:

You're exactly right, Glen. He wants a fancier scope pattern. No problem. And the outside boarder going to black is a great idea. I like how this is turning out. I didn't set out to have an appearance of peering down a rifle scope, but that's what it's gonna end up as. PERFECT! If I mess around enough, I sometimes get it right!

I'll post pics of the final product before I ship it to my buddy, and thank you sir for your compliments on my sign design skills. I'm not nearly as talented at it as some in here, but I keep trying!:)

myxpykalix

04-26-2010, 12:55 AM

tuck

04-26-2010, 02:17 AM

Mark im not a sign maker but here is what i'd do. The picture is pretty self explanitory.
Make your scope parts out of metal, you could pop rivet the detent marks of the scope together.
This probably would take a long time to carve but i think it would be a heck of a nice sign...

by vcarving the deer lower and thereby raising the sides of the circle you could mount your scope parts as described without having to drill into your carving for standoffs

Jack -I appreciate it so much and thanks for your feedback! This is a wonderful place for information and advice!

After many e-mails and phone calls to my old bud in Minny, we have settled on the digital print for the image of the deer and scope. Here is the final design???

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/BigBuckProperScope.jpg

I have no experience yet in true 3D carving and like Joe Crumely has said in another thread, something this large (the deer is 36" diameter) would take an enormous amount of time to machine, touch up and paint properly. I haven't seen my old buddy Spike in 35 years and likely never will again, but I want to produce for him a fine looking sign without breaking his bank account. I still love him, but I ain't in no position to be giving my work away! So,...digital print it shall be. It's a beautiful painting. I didn't paint it and take no credit for it.

Glen- I have decided to leave the outside boarder metallic silver because the outside ring is carved down, painted black, and I want some contrast. I think it's gonna look good!:)

Along these same lines....digital prints have a reputation for fading through the years. Paint does the same thing, even the best of it. Nothing last forever except maybe gold leaf and I ain't going there with this job. I'm wondering if there is a good clear satin product I can spray on the final product that will help protect it and give it the longest life possible. I don't want Spike to call me in a few short years and say: "Tuck,...this sign looks like ****!:eek:

john_l

04-26-2010, 05:47 AM

Whoever does your digital print can likely laminate it with a uv protective clear overlam. Another option is a brush grade clear product called ClearShield.

The yellow on yellowed Lexan can be cleaned off with "Greased Lightening", a cheap spray degreaser product available most anywhere. "Awesome" degreaser from Family Dollar Stores also works well but is a little more caustic... and dont get it in your eyes.

JohnG

04-26-2010, 09:15 AM

ClearShield is a great product to use over the entire sign.

I love the photo you picked, but it seems a little "washed out". Check on istockphoto.com. Perhaps that is the look you were "shooting" for?

JohnG

04-26-2010, 12:21 PM

Hunters are fanatics about naming their camps. What if you beefed up the lettering.....or went with a panel.

(just a quickie)

tuck

04-26-2010, 12:52 PM

Very nice, John G.! I like the beefed up lettering. I like the panel design very much as well. Hmmmmmm...............

The photo is that of a pastel drawing, and that's why it appears slightly washed out. I played around with some actual photos of bucks, but it looked kinda cheap and very commercial. When I came across the drawing, I said: "Viola!"

JohnG

04-26-2010, 01:07 PM

When I came across the drawing, I said: "Viola!"

Sounds like me. You know as soon as you see the "perfect" picture...Viola!!

That is a great picture & does give that feeling of distance (thru the scope). I would import in photoshop, and darken up the deer a tad. Leave the background alone....perfect.

Good luck with the project. Can't wait to see the finished job.

tuck

04-26-2010, 01:40 PM

I would import in photoshop, and darken up the deer a tad. Leave the background alone....perfect.

John - I use photoshop mainly for my cartoon illustrations but am far from an expert in it. If I were to send you the pic of the deer sans scope, would you mind working a little magic for me? No rush...

tuck

04-26-2010, 03:51 PM

Never mind, I think I figured it out. How's this look, John? Better?

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/buckdarker.jpg

JohnG

04-26-2010, 03:54 PM

Mark, I'm far from a photoshop expert, but this is one instance where I think that program would do the best job. I sent you a PM with my email.....but no guarantees on the outcome.

I have most design softwares, flexi, Illy, corel & photoshop (oh yeah, and aspire :)). My field of expertise is in flexi & illy. I think most sign shops that use photoshop are into vehicle wraps & such. I do mostly Monument signs & cabinet (electrical) signs, but I have done a wrap or two. ;)

JohnG

04-26-2010, 04:02 PM

posting at the same time.....hahaha

tuck

04-26-2010, 04:17 PM

Here we go,...I took it into PS and clicked "auto contrast" and I think that did the trick.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/buckdarker-1.jpg

You were right, John, and I like it mucho better!

JohnG

04-26-2010, 04:57 PM

I'd focus on the horns, nose, eyes & the outline. Then I would make the reddish portions a little brighter. I sprayed the dead trees at his feet also.

A quick (not real neat) example.

JohnG

04-26-2010, 05:00 PM

lookin good.

dakers

04-27-2010, 02:26 PM

Mark,
we do alot of digital inlays. we would probably print the cross hairs too but the outer circle would be a retainer ring for the digital inlay. we use lexan mr10 1 sided, print mirror image on oracal 8 year clear then mount it subsurface and spray the back white or apply vinyl. the black circle around the cross hairs would be a raised separate piece we call a retainer ring for the digital print which is put in a relief area. then sealed around edges. we usually attach the retainer ring with stainless screws. the lexan mr10 is a different animal than most polycarbonates. we do some aluminum digital printed inlays with cast laminate also but they do not hold up near as well as the subsurface digital inlay. have some out over 10 years. no yellowing, plus they are mar resistant and grafitti proof.

tuck

04-27-2010, 05:35 PM

Here's the final design. The cross hairs will be on the print which will have the laminated UV protection. 3/4" PVC will be my substrate and 47" will be the diameter of the whole sign. The copy and two outer rings will be routed down into the PVC and sprayed black. The yellowish looking color around the copy will be one shot metallic brass and the outer boarder will be beveled and painted metallic silver.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/SpikeFinalPeg.jpg

Thanks for all of the input, especially to John G. I think this will be a fine looking sign for my buddy and I will post a pic of it in this thread when it's finished and before I ship.

Fun stuff!:)

joe

04-27-2010, 10:06 PM

Mark my advice, Go Fishing!

You used to do that and it brought about a good answer to the question!

GlenP

04-28-2010, 10:01 AM

Very Nice design. don't forget to put the bullet proof vest behind it on the wall to stop those drunkin hunters :eek:. Mark looking back at the original you had a red dot in the middle. I think it might look good with the red dot to the middle again to add a contrast colour to it. Just a thought. Do post pics of your final sign and even your cutting or process during. There is alot of new botters that I think would benefit from hearing how some of the more experienced guys start a project and the end result. One of the first things I cut was a sign for a hunt camp and we used a butt end of a log. Looking back I wish I had done a better design but heck I was a newbie to the machine. :)

JohnG

04-28-2010, 11:26 AM

print mirror image on oracal 8 year clear then mount it subsurface and spray the back white or apply vinyl. the black circle around the cross hairs would be a raised separate piece we call a retainer ring for the digital print which is put in a relief area. then sealed around edges. we usually attach the retainer ring with stainless screws. the lexan mr10 is a different animal than most polycarbonates. we do some aluminum digital printed inlays with cast laminate also but they do not hold up near as well as the subsurface digital inlay. have some out over 10 years. no yellowing, plus they are mar resistant and grafitti proof.

Great advice on the second surface apply, and backed with white.

The lexan mr10 is a great product. As dakers mentioned, mar & graffiti resistant (although nothing is indestructable), but at $300 for a 4x4 sheet, not very cost effective.....ouch.

In the right application, the lexan mr10 is an ideal product (high traffic areas...full coverage items such as lighted sign faces or plaques, and also bus shelter glass... ect). Gotta remember, if someone wants to take a pocket knife to your sign, do you think they would stop at the digital print portion, or would they carve up the routered letter portion also? If someone wants to vandalize this sign, they will accomplish the task.

For this sign, I would stick with a 4x4 of SG Acrylic (second surface) for $75, or use the clear shield.

tuck

04-28-2010, 11:45 AM

Mark looking back at the original you had a red dot in the middle. I think it might look good with the red dot to the middle again to add a contrast colour to it.

Roger that, Glen.;)

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/redpeg.jpg

tuck

05-04-2010, 07:54 PM

Ok, folks, it's done. Glen asked that I post pics and a brief description of the process, so here we go:

Here's my ancient machine plodding along as it cuts this puppy. The cut took about an hour, mainly because the copy is routed down into the 3/4" PVC. Had it been raised letters, it would have taken a good deal more time to machine. Also, because there was no V-carving involved, I need no masking:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/Spike001.jpg

The next step after blowing it clean was to spray the copy and outer routed lines with Krylon Fusion black rattle can paint. Yes, the PVC I'm using is already black, but turns kinda gray when cut. This paint dries FAST and any over-spray was a good thing!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/Spike002.jpg

Next I top-rolled my colors, using 1-shot metallic bronze and silver and some Behr red latex enamel. The over-spray from the Krylon paint acts as a primer because it's formulated to bond with plastics. Notice my big ol' drying fan back there, gettin' the job done:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/Spike004.jpg

I top-roll with 2 or 3 light coats, using the small foam roller pads available most anywhere. The pads are not especially cheap, about $1.60 ea., so when I'm switching colors I put the pads in a zip-lock bag to keep them moist and pliable. This will buy you about 24 hours with the 1-shot enamels and about a week with the latex enamels and acrylics. I use super-cheap styrofoam plates for my pallets:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/Spike003.jpg

SEE NEXT POST

tuck

05-04-2010, 08:00 PM

(SEE PREVIOUS POST) After the paint was good and dry, I applied the digital print. It looked good except I noticed the edge wanted to curl up slightly here and there. This was unacceptable. My solution was to cut an additional ring from some scrap 1/2" PVC, paint it, and screw it down around and over the parameter of the print with some stainless screws. I think it added some depth and visual interest to the overall design for a man's sign:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/Spike005.jpg

This was an easy sign to make. I completed it in one day from beginning to end, minus the design time which was for my friend. I netted about $600.00 and could have done better, but hey, he's my buddy!

myxpykalix

05-05-2010, 12:46 AM

turned out great and i like the pictures of the various steps. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words...good job!

tuck

05-05-2010, 01:26 AM

turned out great and i like the pictures of the various steps. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words...good job!

Thank you Jack. I had some good design advice in here that made it turn out better than it would have otherwise and made it a really FUN job!:)

toych

05-05-2010, 08:28 AM

Mark, I like it! The deer looks as it would if you viewing it through a scope from a couple of hundred yards away. To me it looks better than a really vibrant print would.
Also the screws holding the additional ring add interest.

Well done.

I just quoted another Bruins sign, I am going to try PVC on this one. I added 25% to price because they are still in the playoffs! :D

GlenP

05-05-2010, 09:11 AM

Nice job Mark. Telling the process will help newbies allot. I use most of the same techniques for painting....rattle can, foam brushes etc. Don't have a big fan though. Maybe I should yank mine out of my furnace for the summer....wait bad idea. :rolleyes: I to like the ring with screws.
Keep posting your stuff you have great ideas.

Darren is there any copyright issues with the Bruins sign or not a issue. I just worry about that stuff.

JohnG

05-05-2010, 10:11 PM

Sweet!!! Really good job, and thanks for the step by step pictures.

Why do you suppose the print wanted to lift?

tuck

05-05-2010, 11:05 PM

Sweet!!! Really good job, and thanks for the step by step pictures.

Why do you suppose the print wanted to lift?

Thanks John. I get by with a little help from my friends!:)

I'm not sure why the print wanted to curl on the edges. Maybe the red latex paint under it:confused: Not sure at all, and as I said, it was very slight. As it turned out, the cure made for an even better looking sign we all think. It's one of them there "happy accidents", I reckon.

It's the first time I've employed a digital print in a routed sign design and overall I'm very pleased with the result. The laminated print cost me $55.00 from an associate that does that stuff, and I definitely have added the approach as another arrow in my quiver for future jobs where it would be a good solution. We can't have too many arrows in our quivers, John!:cool: