need material recommendations for large exterior letters [Archive]

ron_churches

04-30-2010, 11:08 AM

Hi,

I've had my shopbot for a few months now and am getting better with design, toolpathing, etc.. I've mostly been cutting MDF, Red Oak, and some acrylic and am still amazed that I have this awesome tool in my garage/shop.

I recently came upon the opportunity to provide all of the interior and exterior lettering for a new restaurant that is opening in my area. The customer's architect specified "driftwood" planks which have been glued up and "carved" by the carpenters using chainsaws and belt sanders. The largest of the planks is 21'x6' and is mounted on the side of the building 22' off of the ground. It's now up to me to cut the lettering using the same font found in the restaurant's logo. They are asking for a quote that provides different pricing options for various materials -they want the letters to last forever, require little or no maintenance, and want to pay next to nothing for them. And of course they need them now. The largest of the largest of the signs faces the Detroit river and gets hit with some pretty harsh weather and high wind speeds. I'm estimating that the larger letters will be close to 3' high.

Can some of you more experienced sign makers give me some suggestions on what materials to use? The letters need to be blue in color to match their logo and in my opinion should have a 3d aspect to them. I had first thought of using Sintra, as the "Dark Blue" color sample is a very close match to the logo, but found that it is only available in 3mm or 6mm thicknesses.

Any help with material ideas or machining techniques would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Ron

tuck

04-30-2010, 11:41 AM

They are asking for a quote that provides different pricing options for various materials -they want the letters to last forever, require little or no maintenance, and want to pay next to nothing for them. And of course they need them now.

I'm sorry but I'm all out of ideas!:confused:

Have they told you what their budget is? This may not be a doable job if they are that cheap based on what they are expecting. Sometimes you have to educate a customer.

dlcw

04-30-2010, 12:02 PM

I agree with Mark. I don't know of any material the will fit all that criteria. But that's what customers always want.

A friend of mine did some signs out of fiberglass with epoxy coatings and those are still looking pretty darn good even after about 10 years. Lot's of work but long lasting.

GlenP

04-30-2010, 12:50 PM

Ron if I were you I would sub the exterior large letters out to another sign shop that does that work. If they want something to last forever then Gemini Letters is the answer. If the letters are to mounted 22' off the ground in a windy area you have a liability issue to be careful of. What happens if a letter comes loose and falls to the ground or flies off and hits someone or a car? Yikes :eek:. With a large letter installed like that cheap should not be in the scope of work. Large letters cost $$. Also don't go cheap as they will label you as a low cost supplier and remind you of it every time they call. I agree educate your customer of the issues with this type of signage that bringing in the proper people only protects all involved and makes for less headaches all around and that you have their best interests in mind. Unless I misunderstand your install. :confused: Do the interior ones yourself. Also just add a handling fee to the outside job to make a few bucks.:)

bleeth

04-30-2010, 01:37 PM

You may want to check out Gemini Letters, probably the largest manufacturer of letters out there. Many sign people use them and you can get pricing guidelines for the manufacturing end. They do large letters like that and whether they have what you need for your client or not you can learn a lot from them.

Glen posted his before me! I do agree with everything he says.

dakers

05-01-2010, 08:52 AM

they want the letters to last forever, require little or no maintenance, and want to pay next to nothing for them. And of course they need them now.

those kind of statements maybe really do not reflect the main goal but since they do not know signs and materials they start saying something like that. usually they want a certain "look"

I am sure they want a certain look to the letters with the rustic background.
maybe they do not want a plastic look, maybe they do,
maybe they will accept polyurethane paint on a substrate or mica on hdu, etc
seems like hdu is the optimal choice and you can just use weights and thicknesses, type of coating as a way to choose price.

there are compromises to be made somewhere maybe.

i have done hand lettering and hand routing on planks like you describe that are holding up well after 20 plus years too.

joe

05-01-2010, 10:36 AM

Ron,

For a First Timer this isn't going to be easy. There's lots of learning steps buy you can do it.

Gemini is excellent for pricing but you can do the work in house. You get a 40% discount off their price list.

I'd suggest you give the client three quotes showing them different materials. You really should make up a couple of samples showing them what you can do. Don't worry about being too expensive. They will go with you if they know you can do the work.

First off, what is the letter style. That's where this quote starts.

navigator7

05-01-2010, 12:01 PM

Hi,
Can some of you more experienced sign makers give me some suggestions on what materials to use? The letters need to be blue in color to match their logo and in my opinion should have a 3d aspect to them.

They are asking for a quote that provides different pricing options for various materials -they want the letters to last forever, require little or no maintenance, and want to pay next to nothing for them.

Any help with material ideas or machining techniques would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Ron

Sorry, not an experienced sign maker but have experience with relatively cheap materials that should last until the customer passes away. I'm responding to the question highlighted in bold red.

Glass Fibre Reinforced Concrete. GFRC
White portland stained blue.

Sealed with 3 coats of UV concrete sealer.

Yields a very sturdy product about 3/4" or thicker.

Your machine is absolutely perfect for creating the required molds and drafts. You already possess the needed skills for mixing concrete.
A few chemicals, a few supplies, a 15 cf/minute air compressor, a hopper sprayer....a little hands on experience.

The toughest part is accepting the idea concrete is not for sidewalks, slabs and freeways anymore!

There is no doubt in my mind this suggestion fits your design criteria!

ron_churches

05-01-2010, 02:02 PM

Thank you all for the advice you've given to this point. I thought I'd provide a little more information about this lettering job. I've attached a couple of images that illustrate what I'm dealing with.

I wasn't totally serious when I said "they want the letters to last forever, require little or no maintenance, and want to pay next to nothing for them". It seems that their main concerns are price and maintenance. I know the project manager from the boat club we belong to, and he's a really good guy. I've done a couple of small jobs for them already and they have been very pleased with my work so far.

I'm confident that this is a job I can handle and honestly really need the work. I'm only cutting the letters and finishing them as needed. The carpenters that are on sight will do the install, therefore I'm not concerned with liability and will make sure the quote I give them states that.

The file I've attached (Sign Lettering.jpg) shows the basic outline of the driftwood planks (that have already been made and are being mounted on the building now) and the font used in their logo. The largest of the signs is really 25' x 6'; not 5 feet as shown in the drawing (typo), and the larger characters are 25" tall. This sign will be mounted in place of the banner shown on the wall in "bobs.jpg"

I've done some research and have found that I can get Sign Foam HDU, Extira, MDO and Sintra locally. I'm wondering what the pros and cons are with each of these materials. I'm now thinking that I'll just cut the profiles of the letters in 1/2" or 3/4" (6mm in Sintra) material and not worry about making them prismatic. I've laid out all 123 letters in Partworks and have nested them in (5) 4' x 8' sheets.

Thanks,
Ron

dakers

05-01-2010, 04:23 PM

sounds like you have some good options.
i have had problems with heat warp with pvc if installed in direct sunlight.
especially larger letters with dark background.
maybe others have not or have used alot of glue or mechanical fasteners.
i would be interested in how others have installed pvc in direct sunlight and the results over a lengthy time period.
after some bad results and replacement i just do not do pvc letters much for some exterior installs.

some have used the 2lb styrofoam and painted them for exterior use with good reslults.

i like the hdu in lower densitiies if money is the issue.

we have used hdpe from king plastics for letters but that has heat issues as well.

When HDU came along it presented the sign industry a really good solution to many previous problems. so i like that the best.

clueless

05-01-2010, 07:11 PM

Scratch off the Sintra from the list. I agree with Dick, PVC in direct sunlight can be a problem. It'll expand and contract an awful lot. Not something I'd want my name on.

HDU would be great, but you'll have to finish them properly, which takes some effort, but it's a nice product and well suited for what you're trying to accomplish. It's also not cheap.

steve_g

05-02-2010, 03:21 AM

Another problem with Sintra is that it fades outdoors. Sintra needs to be painted when exposed to UV.

joe

05-02-2010, 10:35 AM

Hold on there boys on the PVC front. 3/4" or 1" won't warp or bend with letters with this kind of stroke. You must start with the white material. Lets not get carried away here.

PVC letters which have any factory color is NO GOOD for exterior use!

The cheapest material and also a good option is good old double sided MDO. Sealed on the edges it will last longer than most any business will have it's doors open. A good catalized auto paint like DuPont or Centari, can be beautiful and will last for years and years.

Gemini letters will fade and get brittle with time. If you have to replace one letter in a line of copy after a year after installation, you'll see what I'm talking about.

clueless

05-02-2010, 10:43 AM

Joe, 1" PVC is also more expensive than 1" HDU. If I had to pick one to work with, I'd pick the HDU over PVC all day. I did say "It can be a problem", not "It is a problem". In the right application, it'll work fine. Not knowing all the details of this job, I wouldn't commit to using it without knowing more about it.

Just my opinion.

tuck

05-02-2010, 11:25 AM

The cheapest material and also a good option is good old double sided MDO.

I was gonna suggest MDO, Joe. Also, what about Exteria? You use a lot of that, right?

In any case, a top quality paint will be key.

Hey, you know what might look great for a finish? Sculpt Nouveau! The background is "distressed driftwood", right? Unless they just gotta have a solid blue color to match their business cards, this could end up being a fabulous looking sign for not a huge amount of $$$.

Just thinking outside the box.:cool:

joe

05-02-2010, 11:42 AM

Ron,

Thanks for posting this thread. I'm sure there are lots of browsers getting some good information.

Steve,

HDU wouldn't be my first choice for several reasons. The first is it's not tough and when installing, you can't use screws or bolts. It needs a backer with bolts installed. Keep in mind, for Ron to get out from under this work quickly and make a profit, the fewer steps the better. I've probably cut as many letters, as anyone on this forum, and on an economy job HDU wouldn't be in the running. The only time I use HDU now is when textures are required.

Second, HDU needs special priming and sanding to get a quality surface. We use HB (High Build) catalized primers. Still it takes several coats and sanding. Sometimes it can be justified but not on economy work.

Also, if we were forced to use this product we'd make a backer board with screws and attach on the backs.

Mark,

There's nothing wrong with Extira. Many folks on this forum can't get it and don't know much about the product. Even so it's a little fussy on the edges unless coated out with epoxy.

EPS foam, beadboard, could be used but it takes lots of time to finish and needs a backer board for attachment. Finishing with epoxy on edges is necessary.

I choose double sided MDO because it's available, cheap, and lasts. I believe it cost about $60 a sheet.

Sculpt Nouveau would be good but I'd bet this fellow hasn't laid down the first coat of this material. This isn't a time to experiment. It's time to make GOOD money!

dakers

05-02-2010, 12:09 PM

i like mdo and hdo too.

polymetal seems like a good option if thickness is not a problem.

We have sent the approx. 3/4'' sintra to Jekyll island to be mounted on signs there. the size was 12''x48'' plaques painted with auto enamel.
i think there were nearly 20 of them sent. they all warped so bad we had to replace with aluminum. but maybe the heat there is worse than here in ohio.

if you know from experience then it depends on what you have experienced i guess. but it is hard to know everything about all the material choices and how they behave over 10 years. so i like to read about what others have experienced.

tuck

05-02-2010, 12:25 PM

Ron,

I agree with Joe. MDO plywood is the way to go. Use the 3/4", not 1/2", and seal the edges well. You will have an inexpensive and durable material that if properly primed and painted, will still be lookin' good many years down the road.

"MDO" stands for "Medium Density Overlay". It has a smooth resin saturated paper laminated to the surface(s) that keeps out moisture. It's been around for many years and is a good choice for this project as it holds bolts and screws as well as anything.

http://www.alumapanel.com/view_product.cfm?step=1&lines_ID=310&name=MDO%20Good%202%20Side

Good luck with this, and let us know how it turns out.

joe

05-02-2010, 01:06 PM

Dick,

I'd do back flips to see such a small PVC sign warp. Were these the unstable colored factory panels.

I too have seen large 1/2" which are painted a dark color warp. But never .75 or 1" panel warp. Could you please post a photo?

I'm concerned someone doesn't know how or what a backer board looks like. In this photo .75" MDO is used.

GlenP

05-02-2010, 09:00 PM

Dick,

I'd do back flips to see such a small PVC sign warp.

Hey Joe I would love to see you do back flips :)..

Joe what is the process for the look of those letters? I have seen it before but cannot remember.:rolleyes:

joe

05-02-2010, 09:07 PM

Glen,

Glad to help. The letters were textured then a coat of copper Sculpt Nouveau. While wet I applied a little Tiffany Green Patina.

dakers

05-03-2010, 08:01 AM

Joe, the plaques were dark green pvc painted with dark green matthews paint. they were only supported on the ends, after a few months they actually bowed down and out in the middle quite a bit.
this photo is probably with the pan fabricated aluminum replacements.
We had to fly down there and replace plaques on about 20 signs as a warranty issue. that was over 10 years ago but our money was returned to us from the substrate mfg.
i do not want to give pvc a bad name. i have to say i do not know what brand it was. i know sintra is a generic term for pvc sometimes but i know it was not sintra. i could have made the install work with more fasteners in the middle but i did not know this would happen.

joe

05-03-2010, 09:30 AM

Dick,

I don't want to dispute your claim. I know you fellows are top pro's.

If I had to guess, it would be the panels were 1/2" thickness and yes it will flex without a backer. I've never seen .75" or thicker bend no matter what. Even if painted black.

We've cut back on using HDU. The only time we use it is when carving is required. Even then we will use most anything else. It's our last choice. That's because it's not only expensive, delicate, difficult to finish, but most of all it doesn't accept screws or most attachments.

It makes me know difference what other shops employ. This is what we have found to give us the least problems

ron_churches

05-03-2010, 10:56 AM

dakers

05-03-2010, 01:13 PM

Joe,
yes it was 3/4'' pvc. now that it has been rattling around my brain i am remembering some other details.
it was a pvc made for the construction industry as a facia board. the board that the gutters are typically attached to.

So it may have had a different chemical composition

tuck

05-03-2010, 07:19 PM

Thank you all for offering your advice and experience. I've decided that I'm going to go ahead and do this job. It sounds like MDO is the obvious choice due to the cost and ease of use for a beginner like myself. I think I only have two questions for today. (1) For Joe: when using carriage bolts to mount the letters as shown in your photos, what are you using to fill the pockets after the bolts are installed? (2) What's a good material to use for the mounting template when the signs are this large (25' x 6').

Ron

Ron,

I don't mean to answer for Joe and he'll be back asap I'm sure, but obviously the carriage bolts he's showing an example of are for thru-bolting. I'm under the impression that your letters are to be attached to the wood structure the carpenters built that is already attached to the wall??? Because if that's the case, thru-bolts obviously won't work. You'd have to screw the letters to the structure, in which case some stand-offs would be a good idea. I think the stuff he uses to fill the pockets is some kind of epoxy mix if I remember right, but he'll tell ya.

For a mounting template, brown craft paper would work. It comes in rolls about 36" wide if I'm not mistaken and is cheap.

joe

05-03-2010, 11:07 PM

Ron,

I use two different fillers.

Epoxy is hard to beat.

Also we use a mixture of 50% of each Bondo & Epoxy resign. It's magic. Add both hardners last. It pours like pancake batter and sets up in about 15 minues. It's a handy for cracks and knot holes. It' my favorite.

dakers

05-05-2010, 01:00 PM

Joe here is a photo of the pvc warping.

ron_churches

05-16-2010, 07:21 PM

Here's an update on my foray into sign making. I've cut and finished all of the lettering needed for the 8 signs involved and have installed what is shown in the photo. I've been rushed the whole way in order to make the grand opening and T.V. commercial that was shot yesterday. As a result I've made a few mistakes, but overall it's been a good learning experience and the PRT is putting some money back in my pocket. I thinks the captains hat is really cool. It was made of fiberglass in an auto body shop and took weeks to make. I'm considering re-doing the "Banquet Hall" sign and making the characters larger to fill more of the plank. Comments and critiques are welcomed.

Ron