Way to excited customer.

[knight_toolworks]

I get these guys who are all worked up about making their product (speaker enclosures) http://edgeenclosures.com/index.html
they say they are going to grow like crazy and have a ton of work for me. They of course want a really low price. they are talking foam sheets that I think are like hdu so they can be cut fast.
They want me to sign a NDA too.
well OK they don't have anything drawn out but the guy is an engineer and can draw it. ok this is last week a week ago I think. I get calls every day how they are going to send me drawings but have not done so Maybe they can send me hand drawings and I can draw it out for a fee and how much would it be?. then I get a call monday they want these rings nested inside each other and a bunch of 2.5" circles cut out of sintra. well they then can't manage to say what they want in a email and tell me over the phone. it's not hard to do but I want confirmation. well they were going to come see what I had yesterday and order the sintra to be delivered they would also bring a check. well no show and today they want me to buy the sintra and get it delivered (only two sheets) and cut it. but I have not gotten any money I have not signed for anything and they have not approved my sample pieces.
Plus they thought they would get these parts cut (several hundred per sheet) for the low piece of bigger rectangles cut out of foam. we are talking they wanted the foam cut for around 20 a sheet. but the sintra will take about 2.5 hours to cut so will cost 150 a sheet and a bit for every two sheets.
This thing is getting smaller and smaller every day. They also wanted me to store 10 sheets of this 220.00 a sheet foam in my shop and were asking about insurance.
I really need them to aprove the part and pay for materials. it's not much but the way this this is going with the constant change of plans and now me buying material is making me uncomfortable.

[john_l]

I know I hate it. But sometimes I have to fire a customer around here.

[dlcw]

Steve,

Time for them to &#$*( or get off the pot and let you move on.

[cnc_works]

It is plain and simple. Material and 50% deposit up front, final payment on pick-up. If that is clearly understood and agreed on, then negotiations on extra services can go on.

That being said, I agree that occasionally it is best just to indicate lack of interest unless CONCRETE progress happens. Remember, you are also training them as to further behaviors in their relationship with you and it sounds like they may need more training then you want to provide.

[benchmark]

Steve,

That opening statement "they say they are going to grow like crazy and have a ton of work for me" that sounds like the kiss of death to me.
The way they are performing now is exactly how the will perform when it comes to paying.

We all need customers, but there comes a time when you have to say No.

Best wishes

Paul

[knight_toolworks]

I am always Leary when I hear such. But I wonder how they have done anything without having Anything drawn up? They are engineers but everything is in their heads?
I am flexible about payment but not with such actions. 90 percent of my customers bring me material so I don't usually need a deposit. If they wanted this so fast they should have ordered the material Monday when they said they would.

[thewoodcrafter]

I don't do ANYTHING without some sort of a deposit.
It is not a job till some money changes hands.
Without that they have nothing invested and you do.
That can bite you.

[bleeth]

They are fast talking con artists. Politely make them pay up front for material deposit. Nothing leaves the shop without 100% payment. Watch them run.

[coach]

Everybody wants a price for 200 trillion parts per month. Then they order 5 parts to get started and you never see them again.

I got hooked up with a management company that ran 83 apartment complex's here in Fl. I thought it was the goose that laid the golden egg......So I let them do net 30 with no deposit.....I am now owed about 8,000.00 since September of 09. I have to turn them away now. They keep trying to get cabinets from me.

Don't do what I did.

[curtiss]

A little time on there "under construction web site" might tell you something.

.........Edge enclosures inc. was founded in 2010’. Our story actually started long before our companies official start. The company started with one man's dream to revolutionize an industry more than a decade ago! A team of engineers was assembled to bring more than 20 years of knowledge and experience.....

.........Our engineers looked at the problems with existing Audio Enclosures, and found new ways to tackle key issues like; weight, durability, convenience, and value. After several years of R&D, our company has developed an incredible line of products just now becoming available to the market place.
　

Sounds like they want YOU to provide everything for their TEAM...

[rcnewcomb]

Only cut material that they buy.

If they want a 10% discount then they pay full price on the first 90 and get the next 10 for free.

[thewoodcrafter]

If they want a 10% discount then they pay full price on the first 90 and get the next 10 for free.

I like that idea.

I'm going to use that one the next time someone is looking for a discount.

[john_l]

David, Florida has many safeguards to help you get paid. If you are licensed, filed a notice of commencement, and did the install you can attach the properties with a mechanics lien very quickly. Even if you just provided materials (cabinets) then you still have recourse avaiable.

Broward's NOC as an example... http://www.broward.org/PermittingAndLicensing/Permitting/Documents/cri03502.pdf

If not, a local lawyer can still help you but it's kinda costly and sticky.

[michael_schwartz]

Materials + 50% deposit on labor up front with the rest COD. Your not a bank, you shouldn't have to extend credit. If you do let customers keep an account, charge them interest if they go past 30 days. Free loans are a sure shot way to get taken advantage of.

I wouldn't cut anything without a quote signed/approved by the customer and the first payment. Any other buisness will ask the same so it should be perfectly reasonable.

[gc3]

Run, don't walk away from that job. Lesson learned. Do not answer any e mails or phone calls from them.

Gene

[magic]

At least he's getting calls. I get solicitors.

[dlcw]

Simple payment plan:

Installation required projects: 50% up front deposit, 45% when cabinets are delivered (no payment, cabinets stay in the trailer), balance when installation is complete

No installation required projects: 50% up front deposit, balance due on delivery (no payment project stays in the trailer).

[michael_schwartz]

At least he's getting calls. I get solicitors.

the trick is flipping the tables and at least attempting to sell stuff to the solicitors.

[knight_toolworks]

most of my jobs the customer supplies the material. and most of my jobs are under 500. so if I am only working time I will just get paid when they pick up the stuff. most of the time the materials cost more then the labor.
so for the two sheets of sintra below I quoted 150.00 each plus a bit. I don't think it will take2.5 hours like vcarve says but I want to have some leeway. of course they want a lower price then 60 a hour.
well good luck on that I am not going lower though if it only takes two hours will only charge that maybe depending on how they act.
but you can only cut so fast with a .125 bit.
of course they will throw a lot of work my way so I need to give them a lower price. if they can't afford .37 a part they are not charging enough.
thanks for giving me the courage to stand up to them. I know I would regret if I went any lower. lets see if they go for it. and if not let them find it for less.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s266/knighttoolworks/posting/rings.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s266/knighttoolworks/posting/25discs.jpg

[bleeth]

John:

If David did not file his NTO within 60 days of commencing operations on the jobsite then his rights to lien the owner are forfeit (although he can still sue in court and would probably win a judgement against the GC). The entire process of filing an NTO in Fla is tightly regulated and is only in favor of the sub-contractor given that said sub contractor has filed all paperwork properly and on a timely basis and that the job has also had the appropriate paperwork (including the NOC) properly filed by the General. It is far from more sub-contractor friendly states, some of which, like Louisianna, require no NTO from a sub-contractor at all or Washington State where an NTO is simply a letter written to the owner by the subcontractor with no court filing required. Of course, when one starts going down that road than you are also putting yourself into the hands of the GC generated contract which typically has terms like pay when paid and AIA billing which really means lay out a bunch of money, bill it, and wait 30-60 days or more to get your money and then when the job is completely done wait another undefined period of time for your last 10% (which is usually all or most of your net profit).
That comes from someone who darned near all of their work is under those terms. You learn very quicky which contractors to deal with and which not. In Davids case, if I had been waiting that long for that large a percentage of the job, they would have received extensive legal notices by now in addition to many very pointed e-mails and phone calls. They sound like relative small timers who move from one sub to another and deal mostly with suppliers who don't know the game.
In Steve's case, none of this applies as it is not a construction project, hence my advice to get all of his money from these fast talkers before he gives them any product. I would like to add to him to make sure they sign a plainly worded agreement of terms if and when they pony up the deposit.
Steve-I would also like to add (and paraphrase recent posting by Joe Crumley) that anyone who starts trying to get discount work up front based on "more to come later" is full of S--T and selling yourself cheaply simply sets a bad precident.

[michael_schwartz]

John:
Steve-I would also like to add (and paraphrase recent posting by Joe Crumley) that anyone who starts trying to get discount work up front based on "more to come later" is full of S--T and selling yourself cheaply simply sets a bad precident.

Very true, until a client puts their money where there mouth is what they say about future buisness is meaningless.

If you walk into a bar and tell the bartender you will be back every day will they give you cheaper drinks or be ok with a lousy tip?

I suppose it would be reasonable to offer a discount based on the quantity of parts they order. There is no shame in charging commercial rates for your work.

[knight_toolworks]

I would not mind giving them something but I have not done any work for them and I am starting to think they don't have any money. They want me to store 3k in materials but they can't afford 300 in labor.

[gene]

This guys name isnt Jack Riley is it?

[knight_toolworks]

This guys name isnt Jack Riley is it?

no it's not.

[myxpykalix]

make them pay for all material up front!! You are going to come out on the short end of this deal, i guarantee it....

[tgm]

Steve,

This is similar to the classic 'bait and switch' scenario. Dangle that big carrot in front of you, request low prices and bad terms and then watch it all fall out of the sky. Been there, done that and it's not fun.
It's harder to walk away from what appears to be a lot of work but in the end you will not lose money.
Classic...if it's to good to be true, it probably isn't.
Most of the times these jobs are just not worth it, period!

Good Luck...........and heed all the advice given above.

Tom in PA

[knight_toolworks]

yes I am wondering if it will be worth it. I have had a few of those guys going on how they will grow and I never hear from them again. As far as I know I am the only small guy in town. I have had some sign guys come to me because the other guys keep going up in price. did a simple job for one sign guy cutting sintra. took me 5 or 6 minutes a sheet I charged him 2.5 a part 8 per sheet. I only cut 1.5ips but I still made 3 bucks a minute. the other guy wanted 11 a part. so either his machine was really slow or his price was way out of line.
so I told them no lower then 60 and I have extra time to cover any extra time. so we will see if they call today.

[harold_weber]

You learn to read folks that immediately want quotes for large quantities. I give them a quote with price breaks depending upon quantity or a graph like below. Then there is no issue when they order 2 parts.

In the case of the customer mentioned at the start of this thread, before deciding to bid low so you get "Future Business", Google the probability that the average new business will be around in 2 years.

[knight_toolworks]

well he came by and gave me a check for labor drawing and the material. only one sheet of sintra for this run.
he was wanting the parts under1.50 each. He did not do the math well as my quote came to about .75 each and that's about 80 or so a hour.
so we will see how it goes.

[robtown]

Run, don't walk from these guys. You've already wasted too many hours on them. Whatever you've been paid won't be enough once you've really added up all your time spent on this. And even if they come back it will be a constant struggle to get a decent price for your labor. Moving forward they will pressure you to work cheaper, at the same time you'll feel pressured to make more on this work. It's a race to the bottom.

[benchmark]

well he came by and gave me a check for labor drawing and the material. .


Steve,

That was the easy part, the difficult bit is getting paid the balance without them taking the parts away.

Best of luck

Paul

[jerry_stanek]

You just have to have them pay before you give them the parts.

[benchmark]

You just have to have them pay before you give them the parts.


Jerry,

That's when you get the story, "we need the parts urgent and the wife's gone off for the day with the cheque book in her car" or some other lame excuse.

Paul

[knight_toolworks]

they gave me a check for the full amount up front. After I talked to them about their faulty math and that the parts are within their budget that helped. but I think they are overestimating their growth.

[jerry_stanek]

You are in charge at this time. Tell them you take Paypal and have them submit you a payment Don't accept a check if they tell you this as they can then stop payment at this time you will accept a certified check or money order if they pull that.

[jdoug5170]

Steve, as one of your neighbors, and one that was responsible for the routing of speaker enclosure parts on 3 cnc routers for 3 years, I can tell you that from experience....these speaker enclosure guys tend to all over estimate their volumes.

Cash their check at their bank before you move forward on the job and price each job as the last you will ever see. IF they grow, they will be shopping all over the world for price and Asian cnc shops will kill anything we are doing and will do very small qty's now. No longer do you need huge volume to move production overseas.

If you move forward with them, good for you. Glad to hear you are getting some business.

Side question....has vacuum hold down improved so much that you are able to hold down all of those small circles without them moving????

Doug

[knight_toolworks]

Steve, as one of your neighbors, and one that was responsible for the routing of speaker enclosure parts on 3 cnc routers for 3 years, I can tell you that from experience....these speaker enclosure guys tend to all over estimate their volumes.

Cash their check at their bank before you move forward on the job and price each job as the last you will ever see. IF they grow, they will be shopping all over the world for price and Asian cnc shops will kill anything we are doing and will do very small qty's now. No longer do you need huge volume to move production overseas.

If you move forward with them, good for you. Glad to hear you are getting some business.

Side question....has vacuum hold down improved so much that you are able to hold down all of those small circles without them moving????

Doug

yes this is what I figure. their material is very expensive 225.00 a sheet so these are going to be expensive no matter what.
Vacuum will hold the sheet but I will be using a straight cut bit and the shavings will hold the parts in place. that usually works well with sintra. if it was wood I would use a small downcut bit for the same effect.
this method has really let me cut more parts per sheet then I could otherwise.

[knight_toolworks]

took about 1.25 hours to cut I had to slow it down from 2ips to 1.5" to keep things in place and turn off the dc.
but only a few losses on the edge of the sheet and if I had cut it all at 1.5 maybe no losses.
so I told him 2.5 I will charge him for 2 and it took me 1.25.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s266/knighttoolworks/posting/f08ec900.jpg

[erik_f]

As long as you get paid I guess that is all that matters. BUT...from someone that has designed and build high end speaker systems, these are not any sort of ground breaking designs. They do not have proprietary anything. The design on their website is a joke. The language they use shows an obvious lack of knowledge about acoustic box design. These guys won't be in business long...frankly, they are just too stupid. Take their money, because they are just going to waste it somewhere else if you don't...but make sure you get paid up front.

[knight_toolworks]

As long as you get paid I guess that is all that matters. BUT...from someone that has designed and build high end speaker systems, these are not any sort of ground breaking designs. They do not have proprietary anything. The design on their website is a joke. The language they use shows an obvious lack of knowledge about acoustic box design. These guys won't be in business long...frankly, they are just too stupid. Take their money, because they are just going to waste it somewhere else if you don't...but make sure you get paid up front.

I am thinking the same way. the only I can see is a waterproof box. but can a hdu type foam work well in such a application?
once I realized they had no cad drawings I really wondered about their whole business program.

[joe]

I'm laughing & laughing. We're all on the same page.

I like to talk money, up front, with my clients. It make the good ones comfortable.

Good luck with the crooks.

Joe Crumley

[knight_toolworks]

left their parts to be picked up and I have not heard from them. They usually bug me way too much.

[bleeth]

Glad you got your money up front!!! Give them a few more days and then leave them a message that you will be charging for storage!!

[knight_toolworks]

they picked it up and i have not heard anymore.

[rb99]

Hopefully they didn't stumble across this thread...

RIB