First Sign in Blue Foam / Polymer

[gwerner]

This is our first 36" indoor foam sign.

Four layers of 1/2" blue foam, spray glued together.

Modeled in Aspire from 2D image.

Setup and cut on the BT48

Coated with Polymer.

Painted with Acrylics.

Let's hear it for the wife and kids, who even chipped in on the painting!

[dvmike]

That's a great sign ya have there !
Kudos to the wife and kids too!

[zeykr]

Which polymer coating did you use?

[joe]

Greg,

I really, really like your sign. And you had family help too!

At our shop we harden off blue foam by brushing on a coat of epoxy and pouring on sand. Any kind of sand will work. It's kind of messy but sure hardens off the surface. We use two coats for exterior signs.

It makes me feel good knowing the kids were engaged. Huray!

Joe

[myxpykalix]

Greg,
I have to tell you that frankly any one of us boobs can turn a router on, but the true artistic touch is the great paint job. So we obviously know who has the talent in that family! lol just kidding

I like the varying layers and depth to it. When you glued up did you glue all 4 layers the same size then cut down to the varying heights?

What i'm confused about, is to either save time or material could you have cut it in "slices" then glued it together? good job!

[gwerner]

The product is called Styrospray. It is a two part mix.

[gwerner]

The layers were all glued together, and then the model was cut.

I would have had a heck of a time holding down the 1/2" foam. Too much flex in the middle of a 36" piece. The glue up gave it some rigidity. Let me tell ya, it was at the limit of my 1/4" ballnose though.

[bleeth]

I'm not so sure who the "boob" is but the design, both in concept and drawn in Artcam or Aspire or whatever and the toolpathing takes a lot of work and practice to learn. Great job Greg.

[gwerner]

Hey Dave. Thanks for the kind words. Aspire makes it pretty straight forward, once you learn how. Luckily, I have lots of help. My mom Sarah actually modeled this one for me.
I think she did a great job. She also helped me build our website. What a great woman, she amazes me every day.

[curtiss]

So you get the Styrospray glue where ?

Is there a more precise term & location for "blue foam"

thanx

[rcnewcomb]

Blue (http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=15348-46086-201549&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=3014183&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=sim&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1) foam also comes in pink (http://earlhamhardware.com/images/owensCorningInsulation.jpg).

Blue for Dow
Pink for Owens Corning

[myxpykalix]

Dave, we know who the boob is...the guy asking the question...(ME!)

Greg when you explain it, it makes perfect sense. When i look at it I thought i could see 4 or 6 varying depths and the sails looked like they had wind behind them and not just a flat representation of a full sail.

It might be because of the light or shadow lines or because of the talent of the painter for sure. All in all a great job.

[gwerner]

Curtis - Industrial Polymers makes Styrospray.

Blue foam came from blue themed home improvement store in 1/2" - 4x8 sheets. To be precise it was on isle 17, about 15 feet from the end cap, near the front of the store. :)

[gwerner]

Jack - There ARE varying depths. I did the glue up first. It is 2- 4x8 sheets I thought you were asking if I cut it in slices and then assembled the slices. But the sails are definitely full of wind. I just painted what is raised in relief, after we sealed it with primer. It finishes smooth as glass and keep detail. Really cool product.

[gwerner]

Here is the sign covered before I trimmed and painted it.

[mikeacg]

Blue (Lowes) or Pink (HomeDepot) goes under the name EPS (Extruded Polystryrene) insulation. Look in the insulation area of your lumberyard. The pink is Owens Corning F150 (the F stands for Foamular). Lowes doesn't carry it here (must be too warm for insulation...) but 2" x 4' x 8' pink goes for $29 and change.
I just painted a few pieces yesterday with the Styroprime (a thick primer they sell) and hope to try the 2 part StyroSpray later today. It comes out of Houston from a company called Industrial Polymers Inc. http://www.styrospray.com/ $110.10 for a gallon of part A and a gallon of part B (2 gallons total for that price).

[mikeacg]

Boy, you sure have to be quick around here this morning! By the time I finished my reply to the foam question there were already 4 of them!

Greg,

Did you lose detail with the primer? The stuff I have is really thick and some of my fine lines seemed to fill in...

[blackhawk]

Greg - Looks great! What brand and part # cutter did you use on the blue foam? Feeds and Speeds?

Thanks.

[gwerner]

Michael - Didn't loose detail, use a foam brush to "squeeze out" the excess in the cracks and creases.

Brad - Onsrud 1/4" ballnose from BDP turning 14K at 150.

[mikeacg]

Good idea Greg! I will try that on my next piece! I having pretty good results so far but that was an issue on my Navy plaque.
I also like your idea of painting them before you cut them out. I got that stuff all over my hands (gloves) trying to paint finished shapes.

[joe]

Good going boys,

I'm not sure Styrospray can be sprayed with normal equipment. They told me to use a Wagner sprayer. After I bought one and it didn't work then they told me the NEW Wagner, which I bought, won't work. That was a $50 loss.

If I may, I'd suggest using epoxy. It dry's much harder and sticks much better. Be careful with Styrospray on blue and pink foam. They suggest sanding it down first. It's made to work on white beadboard. Pleasecall them to get the info on blue and pink foams before you get too far down the road. Another advantage to epoxy it doesn't loose fine detail.the detail and you can get it anywhere.


http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/jcrumley1/IMG_1830.jpg


Here's my assistant, Ron, laughing as Styrospray falls off the sign. This stuff is very low on my recommendation list.

Joe

[gwerner]

That is weird, the stuff I mixed doesn't want to peel or tear, matter of fact, I got some on a table surface, and I had to chisel it off. I wonder if hand mixing and brushing yields different results than spraying. I guess your mileage really does vary. :0)

[joe]

Greg,

Styrospray dries with humidity. For that reason you can't use a standard spraygun, according to them, due to the moisture in the line. That's the reason they recommend the Wagner. Don't try it either.

I'd suggest you call them about the release materials used on blue foam.

Why not give epoxy a try. You can get a fast or slow drying variety and it's fool proof.

Good luck on your projects.

Joe

[joe]

Greg,


This another Styrospray failure. The customer picked up the sign which was fabricated with using styrospray. During the installation process it developed stress fractures. The front and back were 1.5" HDU, 15lb. The center was Dow styrene foam.Apparently the mold release keep it from bonding properly. These kind of failures causes a production shop like mine to stop and re-think.

I was so embaresed and gladly made them another sign with the promise it would hold up. The retail price for the sign was $4,600. This came out of my personal pocket. Anyone considering their products should think it over very carefuly. This was our third failure with Styrospray over a two year period.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/jcrumley1/Dump011-1.jpg


I posted a step by step of the replacement. This is only a small section of the finished sign.

Joe Crumley

[mikeacg]

I'm handmixing and brush painting and it seems to be working pretty good. I'm donating the soccer signs so at least they can't ask for their money back.
What is this epoxy called, Joe, if I want to buy some and try it?

[myxpykalix]

Greg,
Your second picture shows the varying heights better and i really like the way you have the outer deminsion of the lettering with the inset paint. It gives it a nice deminsions. Did you say you started from a 2d picture? Regarding your bit length, i have seen extra long bits i think they make specificaly for foam cutting. The one i saw was a .5 shank and was at least 6" long, not sure if they make anything like that in .25 shank. Again, very nice project.

[joe]

My hats off to Greg also. It's a nice concept and techniques.
Michael,
There are several manufacturers of epoxy. Too many to list but you should be able to get what you need at Lowe's or Home Depot. The type of epoxy you want is the kind boat builders use. The magazine Wooden Boat show the history of it's success. I use Precision Board's epoxy knows PB Resin. I like it best because it's about the same thickness as honey. Not too thin. It sets up overnight, giving enough time to work with. Another very popular brand is West Epoxy. As it comes from the can it's a little too thin and runny for me. But an excellent product.
Www.westsystems.com (http://www.westsystems.com/)
www.precisionboard.com (http://www.precisionboard.com)
This is the same epoxy I mix a little color in to fill routed letters.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/jcrumley1/IMG_1863.jpg



One more important consideration is, epoxy will not melt foam.



Joe

[billp]

Mike,
You might also want to see if there is a distributor for MAS epoxy ( www.masepoxies.com (http://www.masepoxies.com)) near you. I've used their epoxy product for years to build boats, signs, and foam statues. With most modern epoxies you can alter your curing speed, viscosity, and final surface.
I happen to like MAS because it's "cleaner" than many other brands with a minimum of VOC's. In fact most of the time you can clean up your hands, and tools with white vinegar, instead of acetone. I don't know if anyone has become "sensitized"to MAS, but I do know that some of the other well known brands can be a liability over time due to continued exposure to the resin, and dust. It also sands easier than some of the other brands as well.
I've posted a bunch of previous messages about different techniques of using the stuff to coat materials, so the search engine should steer you in the right direction.
I had tried the Styrospray stuff years ago, and came away with the same results many people had complained of; "slumping" material on vertical surfaces which took a lot of time to sand/repair. And the loss of detail worked against all of the time I had spent in carving some of my pieces, so the epoxy was a much better choice for me.

[joe]

Thanks Bill for posting about Mas epoxy. I haven't tried it but know it's a good product if you give it a thumbs up. Boat builders are the key for me to follow and Mas is at home there.

Joe Crumley

[JohnG]

very nice Greg. Excellent paint job on the smaller details.

[bill.young]

This is coming from a boatbuilder and not a sign guy, but many epoxies develop an oily coating on the surface when they dry...amine blush...that keeps some oil based paints from EVER drying. The blush is removable by scrubbing with soap and water and a scotchbrite pad, or you can use a special primer designed for going over epoxy.

I've never seen this problem with Latex paint but if you'll be using oil-based paints I'd suggest trying a test piece with the specific epoxy and paint you'll be using, just to be sure.

[mikeacg]

Thanks for the info guys. I just hooked up with a guy who puts epoxy on fishing baits (he wants me to cut bait bodies for him. He found me on 1000 Garages Bill!!!) so he's going to give me some to try out. I was concerned about the melting. I also have a West dealer not too far from the house.

[bill.young]

Hey Mike,

That's great that you're getting work from 100kGarages...that's what we started it for. We're working on adding some new features and upgrading some of the original ones over the next couple of months, which will hopefully help it attract more designers and Makers.

(sorry for the thread diversion!)

Bill

[danandnancy]

Jack - There ARE varying depths. I did the glue up first. It is 2- 4x8 sheets I thought you were asking if I cut it in slices and then assembled the slices. But the sails are definitely full of wind. I just painted what is raised in relief, after we sealed it with primer. It finishes smooth as glass and keep detail. Really cool product.

Beautiful work. Your painting is what really makes it great.

When you say you glued the foam sheets, what glue did you use? You removed the plastic "wrap" first, right? Any other tips?

Thanks!

[gwerner]

Thanks. Yes hand painting is the way to go, if you only have one or two of them. I'm sure folks will chime in with a better way, but thats the way I did it in this case. Never tried masking, but that seems to be the consensus.

I got some 3M adhesive from the Blue themed home improvement store when I bought the foam. Its in the paint section.

Yeah, peel the plastic off both sides carefully. It doesn't stick well if you leave it on there.

Make sure you coat both interior sides well, wait for the tack etc, and go ALL the way to the edges of the adjoining pieces. I bet epoxy would work better, but that is what I had around.

[danandnancy]

I got some 3M adhesive from the Blue themed home improvement store when I bought the foam. Its in the paint section.
...
Make sure you coat both interior sides well, wait for the tack etc, and go ALL the way to the edges of the adjoining pieces. I bet epoxy would work better, but that is what I had around.
Are you talking about contact adhesive? I hadn't thought of that.

Again, great work, especially the painting.

Thanks

[ron_churches]

Hi,

I was hoping Joe C or someone else could tell me what you are using to color the epoxy as shown in your pics? Also, does the West Marine epoxy self level? I would like to try this technique on my next project and any info would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Ron

[joe]

Ron,

Many of us have tinted standard epoxy with One Shot enamels. I'd suggest using a tablespoon to a pint. You may notice some bubbles trying to come to the surface. A light misting with denatured alchohol will render a glass smooth surface.

As Bill suggested there will be a slight oily residue when finished. This can be removed with a soapy, stiff, scrub brush. The last step is an automotive clear coat. Epoxy doesn't have much UV resistance, hence the automotive clear. Without this step the epoxy starts to haze and ends up with a chalky appearance.

The stiff bristle brush will lightly scratch the epoxy surface providing good adhesion for the clear. A light mist of clear is all you need.

Hope this helps.

Joe

[ron_churches]

Hello everyone,

I'm about to try some of the pink foam that I picked up from HD and would like to know what bits can be used with this stuff. I understand that it cuts well with ballnose bits when doing 3d, but does it also work with v-bits and end mills? If so, can someone post recommended speeds/feeds for these cutters? It would be totally pointless to screw this sign up as I like to hear a satisfying bang when I throw a wrecked work piece across my shop.

Thank You,
Ron

[billp]

Ron,
The beauty of using any of these foams ( pink, blue, green, yellow, white, etc.) is that you can try just about ANY combination of bits and speeds with little risk of damage. Their composition is such that they will hold a decent edge, and you will get a very good representation of your tool path.
V bits, end mills, or any other bits you would normally use in wood, plastic will work fine in foam. In fact you can save a TON of bucks by using HSS ( high speed steel) bits instead of carbide with little loss of cut quality. This really makes a difference as you get into the larger sized projects and you see how much they want for a 6"long, 1/2" carbide ball nosed bit, etc.
I used to set my 3D tool paths to cut at 10 IPS, and had no problems. Of course in 3D you rarely GET up to 10" of speed unless you have long "straightaways"...
It's cheap enough to get a "test piece" for experimentation, and unlike some of it's more expensive relatives you can usually buy it locally from 7AM to 9PM every day of the week.
See you at the Detroit Camp/Maker Faire in a few weeks and we'll go over the 3D foam cutting/coating process if you'd like...