Spindle noise on sartup

[ssflyer]

Hi all,

Quick question - I think my spindle is making more noise than it used to, but only on startup. The first 10-15 seconds, it sounds bad, but then smooths out and sounds/runs normally. Could this be an incipient problem?

Thanks,
Ron

[dlcw]

Ron,

Mine does the same thing. It has about 300 hours of carving/cutting time so I figure it has a right to be a little noisy in the morning when I start it up.

My joints snap, crackle and pop when I get started in the morning too. :D

[bleeth]

Ron: Could be bearings starting to go. If so you want to get it taken care of. Question: Does it do it no matter what rpm you are starting at? If it only happens at 1 setting (eg 5k) then you may have something doing a "harmonic". Alternately it could also be a slow starting fan motor that is the culprit. That would be good news too. Harmonics is a pain to trace but no big deal, fan is cheap, bearings are a pain.
BTW-what kind and power spindle?

[ssflyer]

dlcw - :D My joints do the same thing, and I won't even get into my eyes! At a rough guesstimate, my spindle only has about 150 hours on it...

bleeth - I always start it at 9K - I'll try some other speed, but the sound is definitely not a harmonic, as it happens all the way through coming up to speed and continues for several seconds - I'd guess it takes ~1 seconds to get to speed, but the noise lasts ~12 seconds. My fan starts when I power up the control box (Alpha). so it's already been running for awhile when I start the spindle.

Specs: HSD 2.2HP spindle, Yaskawa V7-4X supply.

Thanks for all the ideas!
Ron

[ssflyer]

More info - I actually noticed it last winter, and simply attributed it to the cold weather. However, it's now 90 degrees, so that theory doesn't seem to hold much water... :confused:

[ssflyer]

Still more info... Sorry!
I just did the startup routine - ~2 minutes at each of the following speeds: 9k, 13.5k, 18k.

Sounded awful for the first several seconds, but quited down as described above. I let it sit for about 30 minutes, and tried starting it again - sounded great.

I'm thinking it is simply a matter of warming up the grease in the spindle (I guess 90 degrees isn't cutting it :rolleyes:)

May I am imagining it (I hope so) but I do worry about the bearings - it costs way too much to replace them!

[bleeth]

Sounds like what an engine does when the oil is too thick and has to heat up before it flows! Don't know about HSD bearings or internal lube but that sure sounds like what it is in general. With that few hours on it it should be under warrenty-Get to the service department fast!! 150 or even 300 is low hours on a spindle. VERY low.

PS: Joints creaking, cracking, and popping started so damned long ago that I forgot what its like when they don't. The worst part is starting to get to the point when middle aged looks young!

[zeykr]

Could be upper bearings, especially if fan has been intermittent.

A local motor rebuild shop with experience in industrial motors may be able to replace the upper bearing for a reasonable cost and leave the lower bearings assembled. The upper is a common bearing, the lower ones are the expensive ones.

[kubotaman]

Mine does the exact same thing. I have tyhe 4hp model. Does it tll it warms up for maybe 5 minutes or so. Hardly any hours on it so don't concern yourself with it. :D

[ssflyer]

Thanks! That was what I was hoping to here! :)

[ghostcreek]

Hey Ron, I have the exact same spindle as you, and I get the same sounds for the same time. I am glad to hear from others this is semi-normal. Anyone: what is reccomended time (hours use) should one be thinking about getting it rebuild? Thanks in advance.

[srwtlc]

I've got the HSD 4HP model and with just one job that I did throughout the last year (not including everything else in-between), I put on over 600 hours. I've noticed a bit more noise at the top lately, but not too bad. Gets better as it gets warmer than the warm up period gets it.

[paco]

Same here; 4HP HSD, a little bit of rough/loose sound on cold start. The noise disappear within seconds. It's been like this for over a year now. I'm pretty sure it's the upper bearing.

[bleeth]

Wow-I'm glad I have a Columbo-Start-up noise would drive me crazy. I think someone should bust HSD's chops over this.

[steelhead]

Thanks! That was what I was hoping to here! :)
Hey Ron, I'm fairly new to the site, But have owned mine for about 2 years. I have the HSD 4 hp spindle as well and mine did the same thing after about 500 hours or so. I have several friends that are machinists, and one used to be Onsrud's only guy to rebuild their spindles. They are out of business, but he still rebuilds them for the customers that Onsrud used to have. He had me put a 4" bit in is and push and pull with some force to see how much play I had. When the spindle was cold, I had just a tiny bit, you can hear it click. He had me alter my warm up routine as follows: 2k for 2 min. 4k until it started to get warm, then 8k for 2 min., or until it came up to operating temperature. If it was going to be a few minutes between cuts, he told me to run it around 3k to keep it at temperature. When the spindel did warm up there was no play and it is still that way today. I now have about 3000 hrs on it, with no problems. This was about 1 1/2 years ago and I had the same thought process that you did on having it rebuilt. I ran it by him and he strongly recommended that I Do Not have that done. He said it would cost about half the price of a new one and it would probably wouldn't last 6 months after that. (He doesn't rebuild these type of spindles, but knows people that do). According to him they don't know what their doing, and I would have been hard pressed to find someone who did. The problem is that baring tolerance in a spindle are much tighter than what most people who do this kind of work are used too. He mentioned to me at one point that the tolerance for the press fit for his Onsrud were around .000250".

By the way Shop bot wants $1,700.00 for a new HSD 4hp. I priced it just in case something did happen I knew what I would be in for. Frank over there mentioned to me if I bought one to store it on end, not on its side and after it was installed to let it run at about 50 rpm for 8-9 hrs. then 100 for another 9-10 hrs then 200 for a few more hrs and keep this routine going until your around 1000 rpm. All the grease could be laying in the side of the baring with a new one and it needs to get moved around slowly. I hope I was of some help and useful info if nothing else.

Take Care, Ben

[ssflyer]

Hey Ben,

That's some really good information! I tried cutting a large piece of "soapstone" today (the quotes are due to the fact that it had what looked to be quartz running through it) and I had to restart, then run several passes, to try and avoid chipping. After several runs, each only ~0.005 deeper, I never saw it miss its target. This suggests to me that the run-out is minimal at best - what is your take?

Thanks and best regards,
Ron

[myxpykalix]

having never owned a spindle I wonder if all this maintainance and aggrivation is really worth it? I guess if i worked in the shop cutting for 8 hours a day it might be different but the cost and hassle of all this warmup maintainance and repair and intitial cost doesn't seem to be worth the lower decibels.

I guess its probably one of those things where those who went from router to spindle wouldn't go back. I can't justify the cost....

[harryball]

It is well worth it. It's the first upgrade anyone should do. Besides sound, no runout and a far greater useable rpm range.

/RB

[steelhead]

Your, probably not much if any lateral force on the bit, but It sounds to me like your spindle is probably fine. Something else to keep in mind is most spindles are not designed for taking force perpendicular to the baring. Lateral force is what they are designed for. Do check it for movement periodocly both cold and warm. It should. Put your mind at ease and give you a guage of how it is doing. Also make sure the fan is running on it. They some times stick. Use your air blower to get it moving.

Jack, its a good idea to warm up every spindle if you can.
A spindle is well worth the money. Another benefit is torque. Your spindle won't bog down under load.

[harryball]

I spoke directly to an HSD engineer a year or so ago. According to him the 4HP spindle is designed to take thrust pressure. It is used in mortising operations where that is all it does all day. In fact, he showed the literature that included a mortising system with the same 4HP spindle install that I have on my bot.

Not the same story with the Columbo spindles.

/RB

[Brady Watson]

Run it until it blows up (unlikely) or the cut quality goes South. The noise you hear is the top bearing, which is much, much smaller than the 2 larger bearings in the nose. It's just an electric motor - yes, a pricey one when compared to a router, but just a motor in the end.

All noises aside, these are much more durable than you'd think. Use it to make enough $$$ to buy a spare spindle.

-B