REDO of Last Poll, I promise

[Gary Campbell]

This is a REDO of prior post, please revote. pardon my mistake

My previous poll for SB Link Users Tooling shows that 60% zero to the top of material at some point during a job run. Another, even tho with many less votes, show that 55% use a single tool to cut their Link files. I get a good amount of feedback from users on this, and it seems some improvement could be used in this area.

So, assuming I could push the easy button and make this better for you, what would you want changed?

Please Vote TWICE in the poll. Once for the bit change, once for the zero options.

Enter your comments as a post below or email me and I will post anonymously

[zeykr]

Currently using a 1/4 and a 3/8 bit. Zeroing to table beyond 4x8 area.

[Gary Campbell]

Guys...
this is both a bump and plea for more votes from SB Link Users.

There may be some nice features added in the future, I think most of the 30 users should have input, rather than less than 1/3 of the total.
Thanks

[thewoodcrafter]

Gary,

Can I vote since I sold my machine?

[bleeth]

Gary:
Not sure how my vote would be appropriate since we haven't started using link yet so I'll try this and you can interpret it as you see fit:
1. Changing bits is a non starter but with drill attached I will use 2 bits.
2. Based on experienced user input I guess I will end up changing from top zero to bed zero. Personal experience with the blind mortise construction will undoubtedly lead to a more informed decision. As you know, I zero to top now.

In general I believe in anything to KISS since I don't want to be the only one in the plant who can operate the machine properly. That means all operations have to be a fairly short and easy to remember limited step process. Therefore flip operations are out. Slapping a board down close to straight and 0,0; running c3, c2, and starting the file just about anyone can understand.

[thewoodcrafter]

Dave,
Flips are very easy.
First you need some pop-up pins so you can index 0,0 fast.
Then all you need to do is type in the number on the label of the piece that needs to be machined on the other side. Or buy my bar code scanner so you don't have to type. LOL

[Gary Campbell]

Roger...
Since you were in on the beta phase of the link, I would surely appreciate your vote.

Dave...
We are currently testing different versions of "the easy button"

[thewoodcrafter]

The most accurate way to zero is to the bed or a block set at bed height.
This makes the tenons fit correctly.
I think we established this in a previous thread.

The fastest production method I have found is a drill or second Z and a 1/4" bit in the Z. The back material you use will determine the smallest cutting bit you can use. I used 1/4" backs so I used a 1/4" bit to cut everything. I cut at 6IPS 2 pass.

If you only have a primary Z I would think changing from a drill to a bit would be a time saver. Only if you can zero to the bed height, otherwise you loose accuracy and the time savings is lost in trying to fit the pieces together during assembly.

The time savings in cutting speed with a 1/4" or 3/8" bit over cutting with a 5mm bit should be worth the bit change.

[dlcw]

Gary,

I'm not sure if I can select any of the options in the poll. My preferred method of operation is to zero to the bed on all operations. When I'm doing an operation that calls for bit changes (SBLink or Aspire) I will do a zero to bed operation using my "easy button" 'C' files. These files take care of zeroing the spindle and the air drill in one operation and then start the cutting/carving process without any intervention from me - other then to change the bit.

The exception to this is when I'm carving in a door panel or some other smaller material. With these operations, my material is held in place using blocks for side to side support and pieces of 1/4" ply to hold the material flat to the MDO. The MDO is then held on the CNC table using the vacuum hold down.

Bit changes don't bother me. I will do them if it creates a better quality result. Zeroing to bed versus zeroing to top of material is also a non-issue since I use both methods for different types of jobs.

[Gary Campbell]

Dave...
I agree with Roger...
Once you are up and running with eCabs & the SB Link, I am sure you will implement one version or the other of doing flip ops. One of the things being worked on now is simplification. The other is automation of repetitive tasks. This, at least from my position, has both speed and safety of an Owner or a lesser skilled employee, in mind.

Don...
I agree. There is a small number of us that were using the Link before its release with "beta" versions of the MTC files. These files were always designed for zero to bed. When ShopBot completed these files, and since they also had to work with PartWorks AND needed to be supported for new users, the decision was made to support zero to top of material. Since this follows the convention of the vast majority of Vectric users, and their tutorials, it makes sense.

That said, from a cabinetmakers standpoint, especially one that has tried joinery using the Z to top method, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I do concede that the software should follow the 90+% of its users rather than a select few. And few we are. Earlier polls showed 60% zero to top. That leaves 12 of the 30 SB Link users using Z to Bed. An extremely small majority.

As you know, since you are beta testing the new versions, they are based almost exactly on the SB code, but support zero to bed/fixed mounting block rather than top of material. Hopefully these will run almost automatically, with no user input other than changing the bit. Drill offsets update without rerun of the drill_offset file, and flip op fence offsets are now supported. It is my intent that for SB users, manual bit changes will become the norm, as it really increases the options available to a cabinetmaker.

New users will now have a choice. Previously, should a new user want to zero to bed, finding a copy of the beta version, and losing SB's tech support, was almost the only option. Hopefully these new files will render those "circulated without permission or support" beta copies useless.

By the way thanks to those of you testing these, as my ATC machine is nearly useless when it comes to dual Z or drill testing.

[bleeth]

Roger:
Let me pass on some things that I would hear if I ran with bit changes and flip ops:
"Whoops-I forgot to re-zero the bit"
"Since I'm changing bit's so often I need to just stay here and watch the machine"
"Whoops-I lined up the board the wrong way"
"Whoops-I forgot to change the vacuum zones"

Now: If I am using blind mortise and tenons then all cabinet sides need to be cut from the face and to achieve the tenon the bottoms, stretchers, and nailers need to be cut from the back. If I am just cutting butt join parts then all can be cut from face side. The only thing I would be flipping a part for that I can dream of is to do a bit of predrilling for assembly screws. If instead of confirmat or plain drywall, I use cutter head #6 1 5/8" cabinets screws (which we do now) then I don't need a predrilled hole. They self countersink. That's my thoughts on it anyway-Now you can tear it apart!!

[thewoodcrafter]

Dave,
With a little training even your guys could do flip ops, I don't know about bit changes.
Blind dado construction is a different beast then butt joint. Not even the same ball park.
Much higher end product. And besides almost anyone you pick off the street can assemble blind dado cabinets. With the assembly marks I think a blind person can do the assembly.
I used glue and staples, sometime zip screws, finished ends just glue and clamp.
If I wanted to build and sell butt joint cabinets I don't think I would need a CNC to cut them.
With a few procedures in place your guys will be cutting, edgebanding and assembling faster then you know.
But you do need a drilling setup so you don't have to change bits.

[Gary Campbell]

Dave...
RE: your "Now" paragraph

Agree on the face up/down orientation. eCabs makes little or no provision for single side or difference in sides materials. User work around is by sheet names.

New "Flip Ops First" option should reduce both time and complexity of double sided machining. Sheet promps tell operator to load face up or down. You will have to add pilot holes to sides but not full depth to force drill on flip side.

[bleeth]

Gary:
Thanks for info-last night I was thinking that since the purpose of the flip op is simply marking the board it makes more sense to mark the whole board and then flip and cut.

Roger: For our work it is not about making our cabinets more high end but making them easier and more timely to assemble. Our typical projects have many more boxes than the normal kitchen and commercial pricing is extremely competitive. One of my competitors is trying to Ace me with pricing of $95/ft per box on a job. I have done 100% of this GC's work for years and the other guy is being forced down his throat by the developer. My client knows their work is inferior but he's not about to jeopardize his contract either.

[Gary Campbell]

Dave....
Forget high end. I know your market. Roger is correct, the blind dado cabs go together much faster. In most cases, they hold themselves together while you reach for a screwgun or stapler. In your case (and in many others that do post assembly lam or vener applications, there will be redundant operations due to the lack of side selections.