E-cab luvin

[chunkstyle]

As usual, it's Friday and I have just a few parts to cut to finish a job. Have just enough of a sheet in the rack to get my parts out of. A cabinet back and two drawer boxes with blind dado construction.
Using a .25" M.C. bit for my outlines and pocket cuts.
Machine runs around and does the pocket cuts first. Leaves off the pockets on the drawer box bottoms (there blind dado'd into the front and sides).
****! Forgot that the link wont cut the shoulders of any tenons that are .25" in length, according to Thermwood. Bug that needs fixing. All right, I'll cut them out manually.
Machine next asks for tool #15. This would be my 5mm bit for system holes. Only there ain't any on these parts. All right, I'm game. Let's see what it will do. Machine runs the bit over, after the change and zeroing off the remote touch pas, and proceeds to slam bit in material without the spindle coming back on. O.K..........!
Decide to call TW and see if they know anything. It's Friday and it's late in the afternoon so S.O.L.
Try removing the tool #15 from the link, since there is no use for it on this sheet, and re-write the file to SB. Tool errer results. Wants the Tool #15.
Shut everything off. Re-boot computer. relaunch the Link and re-zero machine.
Write file to the SB. Scan the preview. No more tool change for the 5mm bit!
Ran the file and finished the job. Anyone seen this kind of problem? I will say that the Chain operation that was calling for the 5mm bit was a part editor cut on the cabinets back panel. Perhaps the part editor cuts are causing some issues?

Tim

[Gary Campbell]

Tim...

Part Editor cust have always been problematic. In EVERY case where I used imported geometry, I had problems. I have since learned to use the eCabs editors to add these geometry's and have reduced errors substantially. (90% vs 10%)

There has been a few bugs that I have noticed since I have been cutting with V6 designed cabinets. These seems to be related more to eCabs V6 than the SB Link as I cut a couple hundred sheets designed with V5 early in the year on SB Link v18 without a glitch. There were of course differences in the cabinets, but as a rule they have all of my same "stuff", which means they are laced with PE cuts, ass. marks and blind dado geometry's

[Gary Campbell]

A reminder to Tim and any others that may experience "bugs" while cutting using the SB Link. I am fairly sure there will be a new version in the coming months. Thermwood does not have a ShopBot on which to do any testing. This makes it paramount that we users report any items we feel may need fixing.

To report an error:
From the SB Link while the erroneous job is still nested, press the export button and save a .cab file following the instructions.

Attach this file to an email and send to: program@thermwood.com with "SB Link Error" in the subject line. It may help to also include the TWD and ESJ file.

Give a description of the problem that you encountered and steps to repeat. Also include any that allowed a workaround. You may want to inlcude your phone number.

Remember.... If we dont report them, they wont get fixed.

[ken_rychlik]

The last thing I reported.. Flip opps pockets cutting climb instead of conv. ... Zero response. Not an email, not a phone call,,, Nothing.

I included the file export so they could trouble shoot it.

I even sent it straight to Scott V.

It seems like they would at least respond and tell me that they were looking into it, but not a word.

[chunkstyle]

The part editor cuts are a real problem and I would hope they look into it to get it fixed. E-cab is a good program but some of the parts do not function well or efficiently. Drawing geometry in the part editor is about as efficient as the LDE or room editor. There are companies that simply are better at producing simple robust cad programs that are better suited than trying to draw in part editor.
I hope that there is a solution to this problem with importing geometry into part editor to make cuts with. It is much more efficient to be able to down load dxf's from hardware manufacturers and lay it right onto your cabinet parts and make the appropriate cut. This would be a feature a lot more useful in the hardware hole editor as well. Why redraw what the hardware folks have done for us been a request to e-cabs from me for quite awhile.

We've done a lot of part editor cuts using imported dxf geometry in our cabinets without problems for a few years now. I have just had a job run off on a Thermwood that was part editor heavy and there was no problem. This is a problem that is in the Link. I hope that it gets fixed soon. Going back to drawing in E-cabs's would be a major step back in terms of speed, accuracy and efficiency.

Has anyone else noticed the dropped shoulder cuts on tennons that are .25" long? I doubt I'm the only one using 1/2" material. Just wondering.

Thanks,
Tim

[Gary Campbell]

I will check Monday and see if we should be using a different approach/email for reporting. I have also had a couple emails not responded to. A post ot 2 on the forum also. I was hoping that after V6 was up and running, the Link progrsmmers would be not so tied up.

Stay tuned, GC

[kerry_fullington]

Tim,

I want to make a couple of suggestions to you. If you plan to use eCabinets to produce your cabinet designs to send to your machine via the link it would greatly benefit you to spend the time to truly learn how to use eCabinets. I have been using eCabinets since it was first introduced and can tell you it will draw just about anything you can dream up. It works a little bit differently to other CAD products but is extremely powerful in its own right. You probably go back to your other programs because you are familiar with them. Don't do that.
First of all purchase The Nearly Complete Guide to eCabinet Systems Software. It is worth the money.
Use that manual to learn the Hardware Hole Editor and take an afternoon and create all the hole patterns you need from your manufacturers drawings. These will work much better than an imported dxf and you can eliminate all the holes you don't need. It is very important that you do this if you want to cut hardware holes properly.
Use the Part Editor for all your cuts. I can guarantee that you can do any cuts you will need using this. Once again use the manual and learn how to use this editor. Don't simply say it is buggy and go back to your other other CAD program. The Part Editor is great once you learn to use it. Again, part editor cuts created in eCabinets will work better than an imported dxf.
The Line Drawing Editor will do any thing you want, it is just a little tedious right now. They are working on improvements but it would be in your best interest to use it anyway. It is better than trying to use multiple programs.
There is nothing wrong with the room editor (Custom Layout). It may not work the way you are used to or how you want but it works great. Forget how you want it to work and learn how eCabinets works. It will draw anything you need.

Kerry

[Gary Campbell]

Tim...

I have just cut a 10 cab ent center with a good number of .25 tenons into both the cab sides and face frames. 100% tenons on the 1/2" material and 67% on the 3/4". Many had shelf holes by the editor, as top to bottom (line bored) holes dont keep equal spaces when put in with shelves. All had assembly marks, PE holes for levelers, and PE cuts for my web top cutouts. I even milled all the drawers out of board stock. My only errors were with labels. Seems the user selected the wrong one.

I also want to reaffirm what Kerry says above, the good and not so good, but especially about imported geometry. There are numerous posts on this forum concerning imported vectors returning unsatisfactory results in both the 2D and 3D versions of both Vectric and Delcam CAD/CAM softwares. It appears that eCabs is no different.

The fact is that the easy to use (read as familiar) CAD programs dont output the best vectors for cutting. They are drawing programs. They output lines for paper, not lines to cut. Geometry generated by each of these CAD/CAM programs and of course, eCabs, will be virtually error free when posted.

My 90/10 ratio above refers to the fact that I still have some errors... these are user errors, usually depth, that I didnt set properly. But I am getting better.

If you require virtually seamless integration between your CAD and CAM products I would reccommend AutoCads latest version and MicroVellum. I doubt that they will set you back more than 2 or 3 ShopBots.

[chunkstyle]

Hi Kerry,

I remember printing out the manual for e-cabs and sitting down with it, going thru the entire manual from beginning to end, and taking months to do so. I hope I havn't offended anyone by making a critical comment on a program that I have come to rely on and enjoy using very much, I also sing it's praises to anyone I meet and would consider benefitting from the use of it.

It don't think that E-cabs does everything well. What tool does?
Yes, E-cabs is buggy. This is why it is always being revised. This is not a slam. I'm glad that TW is dedicated to improving it. I also try to find ways of improving my product.

I will say that the link has some issues with the imported DXF geometry brought into part editor due to the fact that all my jobs, including the one picked up two weeks ago, are all part editor cut heavy and milled flawlessly on a Thermwood CNC. I have had jobs cut out a Thermwood for 5 years (as a result of using e-cabs). It has only been while trying to run files off on the Shopbot that these issues have come up and persisted.

The cad package that comes with E-cabs is nice to have and I used it. It was my first exposure to CAD. After a couple of years, and with the advice from the Thermwood shop owner, I learned Turbo CAD in a weekend and have never looked back. It's an opinion come from by honest attempt at using E-cabs and using others programs and making a decision that works best for me. It was not a decision made out of a lack of understanding nor is my statement of the link being buggy made without comparison to similar files being cut out on two different machines using the same Design software (E-Cabs). One machine cuts the files without problems and the other (via Link) has issues. Are you running just the E-cabs program on your machine to the exclusion of any other design or drafting programs? If so that's impressive. If you are using a Thermwood I would wonder why we are having different results and experiences regarding the use of imported DXF geometry for part editor cuts. My experience has been 100% success on the Thermwood.

Gary,
Your results of using .25" tenon lengths and mine has me completely up a stump. ANY cabinet part that has had a .25" tenon on it wether it has been a drawer box bottom or a .75" thick cabinet partition has had the shoulder cuts (the pocket cut) dropped off the part. I still have my router set up to run the cut manually when I forget to change this length in the construction settings. Daniell, at TW, found the issue involved the .25" tenon length when he ran the twd file I supplied thru his link file on his end. There were no part editor cuts involved with this. I will ask TW about it in the morning, if I can spare the time, and try to find out why this is occurring on my files but not on yours. Very odd. Would you be able to send a file that had .25" tenons successfully run off? It would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Tim

[ken_rychlik]

Tim, If you want to email me a cabinet that is giving you issues, I will nest it and see what my machine does with it.

If we repeat the issue on several machines, it may help them take note of it.

i got into the habbit of doing a nest in ecabs before outputting the twd. I catch a lot of issues this way. It will help understand if the issue is in ecabs or just the shopbot link.

Then when the parts are nested in the link, I look them over again for issues.

[Gary Campbell]

Tim...
YES, if you need it

[chunkstyle]

Thanks Kenneth,

I will take you up on it. I can send you a cabinet that I just ran off on friday. Problem is that the dropped shoulder (pocket) cuts for the .25" long tennons will show up in the E-cab nest as well as the Link nest. The link is simply ignoring the operation and not writing it out to the SB.
I'm thinking of creating a small cabinet part, say a deck, where one side gets a .25" length blind dado tennon and the other side gets a .375" length tennon. Same thickness % for each side.

I'll run the part and see if the shoulder cut will get applied to the .375" side and dropped off the .25" side. If it does, then I will try and send the job file out to you to see if you get similar results. All my blind dado's tennons greater than .25" in length have been milled without any problems.

Thanks again for your offer, it's appreciated.

Tim

[kerry_fullington]

Hey Tim,

All software will have bugs. "Buggy" implies that it is not usable.

My point is that if eCabinet Systems is to be you cabinet design and manufacturing software you will be better off doing everything in that software. It will do what you want. (I would tell you the same thing if you were using Cabinet Vision, CabnetWare, KCD etc.) eCabinets may not be the best at every operation you want to do but it does "do them well". Take the time to learn , truly learn, each of the editors and the payback will be great. Trying to use multiple programs is time consuming and as you are finding with the imported .dxf files, problematic. You will know you have learned an editor well when you are able to use it for all your work.

What have you tried to do in the Part Editor or Hardware Hole Editor that couldn't be done? I have Intellicad, Delta Cad, Via Cad, Soft Cad, Just Cad, Alibre Design, and Sketchup and all I use any of them for is to convert 3D objects to use in eCabinets. They are all great for what they can do but for building cabinets eCabinet Systems is far superior.
I have also found that if there is something that eCabinets and in your case the SB Link simply will not do, it is far better to change your construction methods to something the software will do. You can lobby for a change in the software but until the feature is implemented it is better to change your construction and eliminate the frustration.

You still need to purchase The Nearly Complete Guide to eCabinet Systems if you are serious about using eCabinets. It is better than any manual eCabinets has ever produced and I have most of them.

Once again, if you want eCabinet Systems via the SB Link to be your design and manufacturing software then do it all in eCabinets.

[ken_rychlik]

Kerry,

To a large degree, I agree with your thoughts on doing everything in one program.... BUT

The part that these files cut correct on a thermwood and not within the link is very interesting.

If he can send a TWD to a thermwood shop and it cuts fine, the same TWD file should cut fine on a shopbot with the link shouldn't it?

[chunkstyle]

Whoops! What am i saying? Can't have different length tennons on the same part. Anyway, I created a tiny cabinet and had the deck construction for blind dado's on the left and right side. Tenon length was .375" long and the thickness % was 55.
Cabinet was then copied and the tenon length of the copied cabinet's deck was set for .25".
Cabinets were saved off as an assembly. Assembly was added to a batch. TWD file was created from batch. TWD file was sent to the SB computer where the link is installed. Loaded the TWD to the link program. All parts of the two cabinets were turned off in the link except the two decks.
Deck were nested and the results are shown in the attached photo.

[ken_rychlik]

Tim, do you think the thermwood shop you were using would run the same twd and nest those two parts for you?

That part on the left is what mine look like when I run 100% blind dado thickness.

I would be happy to give it a run on my machine as well, but I would be VERY interested to see what a thermwood does with it.

Of course you may be able to just change the depth to .26 and find a work around ??

Sometimes you have to do what works and not what makes sense.

[chunkstyle]

Good Morning Kenneth,

I have just recently picked up a load of parts from the Thermwood shop. I currently have a pile of dovetail drawer boxes with imported DXF geometry part editor cuts and .25" tenon lengths.
Cabinets are loaded with part editor cuts with imported DXF geometry. No problems.
I have shelves in that Thermwood run job where I set the front construction of the fixed shelves with a blind dado tenon. This aids in applying hardwood edging. Shelves were cut out by the Thermwood with the shoulder cut on the fixed shelves. Tenon length was .375" long. I have tried this same joint on the SB. The result was the shoulder cut being dropped on the front edge tenons but were cut on the left and right sides' tenons. This is NOT happening on the Thermwood. I'm baffled. It's a PITA when it happens, for sure. It's been reported.

Your spot on with workarounds. It gets expensive to find out that there is a problem with a job that gets run: discovering there's a problem, identifying the problem and reporting the problem to Thermwood and then fixing the parts or, if completely spoiled, throw them out and re-cut.
For us, Ecabs is like that psycho girlfriend (or boyfriend) you had. You love what it does for you but hate what it does to you.

Tim

[ken_rychlik]

An update on my flip opps running climb instead of conventional.

I sent the email to cabinets@thermwood.com and Scott did get back with me this time. It is a bug and he has reported it to the programmers.

Tim do you have the same TWD that you sent to the thermwood shop handy?

Run one of those same parts on the shopbot and then we can't blame ecabs if it goes wrong. It has to be a link/tooling issue.

[chunkstyle]

Kenneth,

I send the Thermwood job files and not TWD's, though I see what you're driving at. I will send the deck parts over as a TWD and see if they have time to run them.

Tim

[ken_rychlik]

I got the twd from Tim and ran the decks on my machine. All went well.

[chunkstyle]

Well what the .....
Thanks Kenneth, I'm happily annoyed. It has to be something from my end that can be remedied. Now to find it.

Kerry,
Here's a stack of dovetailed drawers next to my desk with part editor cutouts from imported DXF's. Thermwood milled. No problems.
I agree that you should take the time to learn the program. I would disagree that you should not avail yourself to learn what compliments the program. It was an enormous help to import DXF geometry from Turbo. We have had no issues with it on the Thermwood. This doesn't take away anything from E-cabs. Our experience is that it magnified what the program could do for you. It made it that much more powerfull and I have done some jobs that I would never attempt to do all in E-cabs alone.
I did not reach this conslusion alone and was resistant to trying anything outside of E-cabs. After some prodding from the THermwood owner and the discovery of how easy TW has made it for us to import a DXF into the part and shape editor I was off to the races. I don't understand where the notion of having to do it all in E-cabs comes from. It also not clear how you could be churning out good quality shop drawings or architectural submittals using just E-cabs. Not in a timely and profitable way.
I would not disagree with you to learn and keep learning all there is to the program. I doubt anyone knows it more than you. I would disagree that you should not learn how other programs can compliment what is a remarkable program as E-cabs.

Again, let me stress that the problems that I'm having with my parts are happening on my machine and not on a Thermwood. I do all that I think I can to resolve the issue. That would include trying to find the problem on my own first, reporting the problem to TW, sending the requested files and finally doing as TW recommended.

[chunkstyle]

To follow up on the dropped tenon shoulder cuts I think it's solved. Big thanks to Kenneth.
My .25" M.C. compression was set up as .253" in diameter. Changing the bit diameter to .25" allowed the cut to be made. Why it didn't throw up a tooling error I have no idea. The tooling tolerance setting is set to .01", also.
Spoke to the Thermwood shop and the owner mentioned that the pocket cut for the tenon shoulder has a boundary and perhaps it is becouse the boundary is at .25" and not .253"? That would make me wonder, though.

Why no tooling errors?
Is a .375" diam. bit not able to mill out a shoulder for a .25" long tenon? I would like to think it could.
Does the code not get written from the data in the tooling? Why would it skip the pocket altogether if the tolerance is set to .01" and my tooling is only over by .003"?

I'll drop a line to TW and let them know the results.

Tim


P.S: Email from TW just arrived as follows:


Tim,

Try changing your tool diameter from .253" to .25" or less. This should
take care of the tenon problem.

If it doesn't, let me know.

Thanks,

[Gary Campbell]

Tim...
I was going to have you send me a cab file, as I was sure what your problem was. I guess it is obvious now, but the tenon cannot be shorter than the diameter of the cutting bit.

Since parts are nested an outline bit diameter and a few thousandths apart, cutting geometry with a larger bit wont work. It would be nice, but is not available as a feature at this time.

In case you are wondering, the reason the parts were able to be cut on the TWD machine and not yours is simple..... The TWD operator was not trying to trick the software by adding erroneous bit diameters. :D

I am VERY happy to see Kenneth help you solve these problems. (he knows why) Send him an email and ask him how much easier life is when you decide to live it within the realm of supported features in a software package rather than trying to force your own wishes, methods and logic into something that was written not for you persoanlly. You have the makings of a very good combo with eCabs, the SB Link and your ShopBot. Those that have traveled this path before you would advise you... "Don't fight the software"

As a side note, if you need the tooling set to .253 to get accurate dado widths, set your tenons to that number, those 3 thou. will be absorbed by the depth clearance easier than gaining 6 thou. on the width

[chunkstyle]

Thanks for the help Gary,

Actually, I did not think that it would matter what the bit diameter for setting the tenon lengths. It is all X,Y direction. Now getting a .253 to cut a .25 inch dado is another matter. Without evidence to the contrary, i would assume that the software would no where to put the tool path to account for the extra .003". The tolerance setting could also be construed to allow for this, no?

I am not trying to get the software to conform to my thinking. Rather the other way around. I have been up against this problem for about 3-4 weeks now and have talked to TW about it and sent the associated files to be looked at. All of which is appreciated.

Question is- Why no tooling error? Again, not fighting it (been there done that ) merely trying to figure out what has been going wrong. There was no feedback from the system to give an indication where to find the problem, correct?

I have been wondering all day about those shelves mentioned earlier that had this same operation skipped on the front edge. Here we have a .253" bit cutting out 55% of .72. I will look into this some more, given the time, to see what could have been wrong there. I'll isolate the part in the link nest and run it again. See if I can replicate this problem.

Not fighting it brudder. Learned along time ago how resistant software is to outside considerations. It's not my first time to a rodeo where technology, in the form of chips and code, had replaced earlier modes and methods of doing things. All of it in film and graphics, from personal experience. Adapt, improvise and overcome right?

In this case, there was no obvious feedback for what was going wrong. At least to me anyways. Sometimes things do get set up for failure, not realized until it's happened. Guessing we've all been there. Is it the failure of the user or is there something in the design of the user interface?

Glad to find this one. Hopefully, the other one will get sorted out as well. Trust me, this isn't the first time a file of mine has blown up on the launch pad and I've had to figure out why. Thermwood has the patience of Noah helping me out over the years. I hope they will continue to help me. I love trying stuff in E-cabs. So much so that I bought a SB. So much that I'll be critical of it, if that makes sense.

Thank again for your insights and inputs. It's always appreciated and helpful.

Tim

[ken_rychlik]

Tim,

It will let you use a .25 bit for a back rabbet/dado that is only .2 deep. i apply some cabient backs this way and they changed the programming to allow it on an outside of a cabient side. The dado overhangs the part before it is cut out.

Maybe the same thing could be done for a tenon?? If you tell them you would like to be able to use a 3/8 bit to cut the tenon and let the bit hang off of the part, they may work it into the next release.

I am thinking you were telling it you had the wrongs size bit to make your parts fit together.

Use the correct bit size and make your fit adjustments within ecabinets settings. "construction settings"

Once you get it dialed in, life is good.

I have been through about 10 reports with thermwood and 3 of them turned out to be bugs. The other 7 were operator error.:rolleyes:

[Gary Campbell]

Tim....
"Actually, I did not think that it would matter what the bit diameter for setting the tenon lengths. It is all X,Y direction. Now getting a .253 to cut a .25 inch dado is another matter. Without evidence to the contrary, i would assume that the software would no where to put the tool path to account for the extra .003". The tolerance setting could also be construed to allow for this, no?"

In short NO. As we spoke of before, the tenon has no clearance etc applied to it. It will be the programmed width and thickness set in eCabs. You need to remember dados are pure rectangles. They will NOT go off the edge of a part, due to close nesting tolerances. They cannot encroach on the interior of the part. If you select .25 as the tenon depth an exact .25 rectangle is placed on the edge of the part. Period. Your selected bit must be equal or smaller. Period. It is this way with every CAM software that I have looked at. You cannot cut the interior of a .250 rectangle with a .253 bit with any one of them. How or IF they report an error, varies with the App.

The software does not know where to put any extra amount, even .001. Your extraordinary ( .010) high tolerance number may have supressed the error. Set this from 10/1000 to a realistic number under 5/1000. You have agonized over .006 variation in a dado width, (which is .003 X 2 sides) why accept .010 in your tooling?

As a side note, I would prefer to cut my tenon dados with a .375 dado as Kenneth desribes, so would a good number of guys on the TWD 3 axis forum. If we add this to our wish list as they have.... never know.. we might get it.

I have a 5mm compression bit mounted as my "dummy" bit. In other words, if the designer was a dummy, the ATC can compensate for him. I prefer not to say how many times it gets pulled from the rack! :D

[chunkstyle]

Gary,

To recap what you said and gut check my thinking on this, the tenon length set up in E-cabs construction settings will determine the size of the boundary box for the tenon shoulder cuts?
The bit diameter is not factored into the boundary box, only the tenon length Dado depth in construction settings). Correct?

What are you referring to regarding the .375" tenon dado's? It's e-cab easy, just multiply your material thickness by a tenon percentage thickness to get to .375". What could be more simpler? Less of course you change the thickness of the material at the twd. Your dado's will be .375" plus any fit clearance added right? Or are you referring to the boundary box to create the pocket operation for your tenon shoulder cuts? Cutting a shoulder on a .25" long tenon with a .375" bit?

It was a long way to the well but I think I got there. Thanks for the help and patience,

Tim

[kerry_fullington]

Tim,

Here is a link to a thread on the Thermwood forum discussing the larger bit situation. It is a little confusing also but the gist is that at this time you can't use a larger bit .375 to cut a .25 tenon on blind dado. They are hoping to get this ability implemented.

http://www.thermwood.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11752

[chunkstyle]

Hmmmm....

Good thread, thanks Kerry.

So the bit to cut the shoulder (pocket cut) on our tenon's are determined by the dado width's. That being any tool diameter that can cut out a dado within 2 passes will be the bit used to pocket out the boundary box for the tenon shoulder cuts. Is this correct?

I think I understand better what Kenneth is describing. The boundary box for the back rabbet is overhanging the edge of his panel? The same method, if applied to tenon shoulder pockets could be applied. The boundary box would overhang the tenon geometry in order to be able to use a bigger bit?

Lastly, can I conclude from all this that the tool tolerance works for anything below tooling diameter for some specified cut and not above tooling diameter?

[chunkstyle]

"It is not the tenon depth that dictates what tool is chosen for an operation. The tool is chosen based on the the dia. of the dado (tenon thickness). For example: if your dado is going to be .375, then a tool dia. that can cut this dia. within two passes is selected (tool setup for rout/dado with dia. .374 and smaller)." - TWD

What is TWD referring to in the above statement by the use of tenon dado?
Is he talkind about the dado that will be milled out on the adjoining cabinet panel to recieve the tenon? Or is 'dado' referring to the boundary box used to pocket out the tenon shoulder?

Just wanting to be sure I am understanding the references correctly.

[chunkstyle]

I ask this because the tenons that were dropped from my test twd. (the one that Kenneth also ran) were 55% of .75". In other worlds, that means that the resulting tenon was .4125" thick. That would require a .4125" wide corresponding dado, if fit tolerances are set to zero, in the adjoining part recieving the dado would it not? If this is the case then why were my .25" long tenons dropped on my parts with a bit daimeter of .253"?

When I speak of tenon length I am referring to how far off the edge of the panel the tenon extends.

When I think of dado I think of a grove that is milled into the face of material by a DADO set on a table saw or a router bit in a router (or spindle).

I am assuming that what TWD meant by dado diameter is actually referring to the width of the dado.

Dado depth is usually determined by tenon length and vice versa in my way of thinking.

Boundary box is a term that I learned from the Thermwood shop to describe the pocket geometry outline that is used to create pocket cuts.

""It is not the tenon depth that dictates what tool is chosen for an operation. The tool is chosen based on the the dia. of the dado (tenon thickness). For example: if your dado is going to be .375, then a tool dia. that can cut this dia. within two passes is selected (tool setup for rout/dado with dia. .374 and smaller)." - TWD

Am I interpreting this statement as meaning that the tool chosen to mill out the pocket for the tenon shoulders (the boundary box) is determined by the dado diameter (guessing that means dado width since they refer to tenon thickness)?

If so then the question is still unanswered in my mind. Why didn't the .253" bit cut the shoulder if it can cut the .4125" wide dado for the same tenon?

Or does it make sense to try and understand it if you find out that .25" diameter works?

Is this considered fighting the program logic? :confused:

[chunkstyle]

Gary,
After reading yours and Thermwoods logic I'll think about it in your terms. I think you are saying that tenon length (or dado depth in construction settings) determines the boundary box (possibly referred to as a dado?) and that is what has to be cut by a bit of smaller diameter. Makes sense to me and jives with what I have observed here. The TW explanation manages to confuse me a bit.

All right, I think I've managed to suck the life out of this issue, nuff said.

Tim

[chunkstyle]

Ok. Ok. really this is it...

Gary,

You and TW are using the term Dado for that shoulder cut operation? I see the code for the milling of those two parts has the operation listed as a dado. This is where the confusion is coming from for me.

Someone tells me I need to cut some tenon dado's... I think of the actual dado that will receive the tenon. Some one tells me to cut a tenon shoulder.... that might involve a Dado blade but I would be thinking shoulder cut.

It's the nomenclature of the code and not that of a shop that you were speaking in I'm guessing? Penny just dropped and I ran down to check the code on the machine's computer to see how it was describing it. Words can get confusing. I'll try and use what is being documented in the Link code and not accepted shop terms from now on.

I post this in case it might help others avoid confusing themselves as I have done.

Tim

[ken_rychlik]

I thought I understood it, but now I'm confused. :eek:

[Gary Campbell]

Tim....
You are overthinking this. You have yourself confused and you almost have me there too. I will ignore your answers that turn into questions and explain it the way that I know it. My terminology may not match yours, but please bear with me.

I refer to all dado cuts as rectangular geometry. Just as they are shown in the eCabs or SB Link nest. I am not going to mention the amount that is added to a dado rectangles length. (1/2 bit diameter to each end)

Assume .72 material, 55% tenon thickness(.396) and .375 dado depth, .010 fit clearance, .020 depth clearance

A tenon dado (located on the end of a part and forms the tenon) is the dado depth wide and material thickness minus tenon thickness deep. .375 wide by .324 deep by whatever length. No clearance is applied to this geometry Leaves a tenon .396 thick by .375 long


A pocket dado (usually on a cabinet side to receive a tenon) is the tenon thickness (.396) plus the fit clearance wide, dado depth (tenon length) plus the depth clearance deep. .406 wide by .395 deep. All the clearance settings are applied to this geometry.

How this applies to tooling are in my folllowing recommendations:

When designing for a single bit, then you select your bit first.

I assume either 1/4 or 3/8, I prefer 3/8. I will give parameters for both.

Your dado depth must be the same or larger than the bit diameter. (does not apply to full dados)

Your tenon thickness plus fit clearance must be equal or greater than the bit diameter. For efficient machining, I recommend that the tenon thickness (or the width of any dado) not be greater than 1.8 times the bit diameter. I think that due to small bits that Link users can pocket dados, but I do not chose to use this feature, if it exists.

Thats all ya get till you buy the video! :D

[Gary Campbell]

Tim...
To clarify my terminology, here is a screen shot from an eCabs nest:

[chunkstyle]

Thanks Gary,

Picture is worth a thousand posts.

Make sure you tenon length is greater than your Rout/Dado diameter.

Make sure your full dado's and pocket dado's widths are greater than your Rout/Dado bit diameter.

Tenon's shoulders (well actually the cheek cut to be accurate) are formed by the creation of a boundary box, called tenon dados, where the width of the box is derived from the tenon length (dado depth in E-cabs construction settings).

Sound correct?

Got hung up in the use of the term dado. Lead to confusion in the explanation of the CNC operation. Probably why the TW Shop owner was using the term 'tenon boundary box'. Less confusing to explain to employees maybe. I think I've got it now.

Thanks heaps,

Tim

[Gary Campbell]

Tim...
I believe you have just snatched the pebble, Weedhopper! :D

Now stop over analyzing and get back to cutting!