Aluminum Leaf

[cartar929]

For this project I used aluminum leaf for the first time. The stuff is fairly sensitive and drastically different from gold leaf.

We used aluminum leaf because this company specializes in aluminum foil packaging (i.e. hershey's kisses, gum, candy bars, etc...). The sign also uses the Modern Masters Sapphire Blue for the background, and for the darker part the paint was custom tinted.

We subbed out the aluminum cabinet work, and then put a brush attachment on a grinder and put the texture on it.

However, I was disappointed with the lack of landscaping. Anybody have any good techniques for up-selling landscaping around their projects?

[cabnet636]

that is impressive, fire the landscaper

[cartar929]

The client said they were going to do the landscaping, I was just wondering if people have found a way of getting around this challenge of customers thinking they can do it.

[jimmya]

The customer is always right. You didn't do it so they will have to live with it, or change it.
Jimmy

[jimmya]

By the way GREAT JOB!!!

[cartar929]

Thanks for the comments Jimmy. I'm not a big believer in the customer always being right. I think that line is just more of a gimmick to make people believe they are getting everything they want.

In this industry I believe the customer needs help and they aren't experts on what looks good, or how to communicate/promote their business properly. It just seems like everyone's pockets are tight and was wondering if anybody has come across some good techniques on how to up-sell.

Because in this situation I created a sign that I like, but the landscaping around it is busted. In this situation it causes the portfolio to suffer and doesn't help to showcase how attractive this type of sign can be for a company.

[signtist]

I always tell them to landscape the area too. This dosen't work most of the time. I tell them that it stops vandle problems by putting a barrier in front of the sign.
If the sign looks good like this one, I often photoshop some landscape into the photo just for my portfolio.
What material did you use?.....looks like HDU or PVC.

[cartar929]

John the sign is HDU, Sign Foam in the 18lb density.

[curtiss]

Very very nice... You might have to show the owner another sign with some proper landscaping.

I would think a low rock wall border with landscape stone inside and scrap the petunias and wood chips.

I would suppose if it gets hit by a car they will be in touch with you...

[joe]

Congratulations on a splendid layout. That's what caught my eye first. For me, the artwork is the most important part of any sign. I'm also impresed with your use of materials. I'm most interested with the Modern Masters materials. I've been using them some and am keeping a close watch over how well the metalic effects last.

I'm not too fond of aluminum leaf. I've found a much better material is white and silver mica.

I'm very fond of your brushed treatment of the aluminum. We've had to top coat it with Matthews Clear to keep if from turning dull.

Keep up the good work.

J.

[cartar929]

I could see why somebody wouldn't be found of the aluminum leaf, I would really like to use mica in some future projects. But, I am not sure of how to exactly use it. I know letterhead has a sample or test kit which would be good to try out.

Joe do you have a particular color with the mica that you find works best?

[maxheadroom]

while it's nice to be complementary, it also helps to be honest.

I'd never let a gilded job as posted out the front door!

1. The leaf you laid down will get you a call back - to repair. Looks as though it wasn't burnished properly, and looks like there are voids. Rain or irrigation water, along w/ UV will quickly break down the voids and spread.
2. Properly laid aluminum leaf does not need to be cleared, period.
3. Properly laid and burnished aluminum leaf is not as nice as gold or silver leaf, but should look better than the close up's posted.

For $ 22, buy a book of 12k gold and clear, or better yet get a book of palladium which is good for exterior w/o clearing.

While mica looks nice, surface gilded mica has it's own limitations for surface gilding.

12k and palladium both lay well, and properly gilded, are seamless.

What's the old saying?: Gold is gold, paint ain't. (or any other substitute)

Both the old timers know this.....

max

[marysvillesign]

I think Walter noted what I saw as well. The photos show great design and processes until the close up of the gilding.
I am poor at gilding myself (likely not enough practice). A brief step by step of the process & materials used would help myself and others to improve.
I'm particularly interested in the design process. This looks like a single piece, single pass. Could any of the copy have been pocketed for ease of finish work? We often have price/time challenges that don't allow us the latitude I would prefer.

[joe]

I know, exactly, what Carter went through with aluminum leaf. As I stated earlier, I'm not fond of it but have seen some nice applications. The only, meager advice I can give it to lay down plenty of size and don't let it get too firm. Unlike gold, I don't think you can drown it.

Walter, I wish we were closer and could go over some of my mica tests. I truly believe it rivals 23K in some application. And exceeds gold in some ways.

My first experiments were extensions of the techniques I saw Noel Webber and Mike Jackson doing on reverse glass panels. On those they would lay down regular oil size and apply the powders with a gilding mop. It was very deliclate, thin process. However when applying mica to surface wood signs there needed to be a more robust technique. I've ended up by mixing the mica and clear size. To finish up you can apply the last coat of mica with a gilders mop. One of the neat tricks here is, you can use different colors of the powder to highlight or deapen letters.

I'd take my hat off to Carter for his making that beautiful sign and trying out a new technique. I encourage everyone on this forum to take risks and experimenting. You're gonna have failures. So What. The few successes are worth it.

Fear of failure has throtled me back all my life.

J.

PS: Looking back at mica sign, over the past two years, I'm seeing what looks like a tendancy for it to gather dust. I'm keeping a good eye it and will keep everyone posted.

[maxheadroom]

Joe,

can't argue with anything you've stated. Well, maybe bout' the mica. I would honestly love to see what you've done with it. In reverse glass you can actually use multiple shades of mica to produce beautiful blends.

Besides, I was taught to respect my elders. Especially those considerably older than myself!

Over the years I have used mica's in various shades, literally by the pound, both on reversed glass and surface gilding. Other than mixing in paint, surface gilded mica is prone to wear and abrasion like nothing else. If you want the best gold paint, get Aquathane by Rhonan. The only problem is it's semi transparent, and requires multiple coats to achieve a decent gold look.

I've also tried mixing mica into the paint and varnish, but as I've said, with projects that have been up for years, I haven't found a bullet proof way of using surface gilded mica.

Honestly, the cost of gold and application doesn't add that much to material cost, and when the client can afford the addition of gold it can add considerably for those with the ability to lay leaf well, more than just the actual cost of time and materials for the gold. Looking at carters project, I see problems down the road, and the only reason I want to hear back from the customer is 1. to tell you of someone they've refereed to you, or 2. for another order.

Laying leaf isn't that difficult, and the best way to learn is to finagle a signmaker that's good at it. That and a little practice.

Joe's also right on the aluminimimmumiam:). Gold: need the right tack. Run a knuckle across the size after 45 min for quick size and it should 'squeak'.Or put a knuckle into the size, and your knuckle has no varnish residue. It's time to gild just at the time it's not wet, and not totally dry. Clear as mud.

On the other hand, aluminum should have an aggressive tack, ie still a little on the wet size. Try Wunder Size, a water based size for gilding. It's listed as interior only, but in a pinch I've used it in hard to get to areas high up that needed to be done right now outside. Some of those have lasted over 10 years w/o problems. Again, you need an aggressive tack, which Wunder size is good for. That and dutch metals. In case some of you need to be told, DON'T run your knuckle across the project itself, gild a scrap piece and test for the tack on the scrap!

I am a firm believer that one, as Joe has pointed out frequently, do a test on your own, get the process down, the do it for the customer and do it right!

When I started, like others, there was no internet, just the local library. Test, test, and test again until your proficient!

With Joe re trying, maybe he can open 'Joe's School of Sign Making'.

PS:


You're gonna have failures. So What. True, we all make them. Do you let them go out the door Joe? I frequent your web site, though it's not changed in a while;-),but the answer I'd guess would be no.

[joe]

Walter,


Have you tried mixing Mica and Matthews Clear. It's near bullet proof and extremely bright. On large jobs like "The Reserve", photo's below, I've found Maya Mica to be excellent. On this job I thought about using 23K but covering the hundred's of ribs was a consideration. Another problem was the water features on each side of the lettering. That would play havoc on most surfaces, so I've top coated the mica with automotive clear.

You stated you'd like to see some of my mica work. Do a search and you'll see some. I'll post a pix or two for you. And yes I haven't updated my my old website in a long time. Thanks for the reminder. Now please show us some of your mica work and do you have a website. We're trying to move the ball down the court here. Everyone wants to do better work. That's the heart beat of this forum.

About letting mistakes leave the shop. Yes they leave my shop all the time. I've capitalized on my mistakes. Sometimes they come back to haunt me. For example, the ribbed look I'm now using was a mistake. While experimenting I come across these all the time. Dante, the middle ages poet, described them as “The Divine Mistake”. It requires letting go. Last week I posted one of my latest mistakes. I laminated HDU and DiBond. After a couple of weeks after installation it began to fail. We all do our best but to curb problems but they get by us. When a customers job is running behind schedule and the pressure is on is when I make mistakes. Confession is good for the soul.

Please do a step by step, or two, on a process or topic you feel would be of assistance. Perhaps we could do a joint step by step!

Joe

[joe]

Here's another example of Mica used on a sign which shipped to Corpus Christi.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/jcrumley1/MicaGoldtoCSA.jpg

[cartar929]

I appreciate all the posts and the criticisms. I do believe that the letters could have been guilded better, but like I said this is project one using the stuff. Which means I probably didn't have the best materials and or the best technique but still went for it.

I did do a small test before using it, but honestly we had already sold the idea before the test. You know it's the real world things don't work perfectly.

I would have never used gold for this project. The company specializes in aluminum packaging, so gold would not make any conceptual sense. I have used gold leaf before with better success. But, don't consider to have the process down perfect, however if you don't go out and try your not going to get better.

This sign has been up for a year with no failures, I know that's not a long time but that is the case so far (so knock on wood), and we have had some major temperature swings this year.

Joe like I said before I like your mica stuff and I am very interested in the technique and the material, and like the texture in the lettering.

I do agree that pocketing the letters would probably have been a more efficient and quality controlled technique for the project, but honestly it was something that I didn't even think about.

I have only been in the sign business for 5 years total, and have only been running the CNC for 2 years. We are a very small shop (I'm the only guy in production, and don't own the shop) and really do appreciate the feedback. I use it to try to help me do better work. I also enjoy seeing examples so Walter if you have any with aluminum leaf projects please post.

[joe]

Carter,

If you paint a letter with white enamel, like One Shot, and dust on white or silver mica, with a mop brush, it will levitate off the table. It's so easy and your customers will be impressed.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[cartar929]

Sounds like a pretty cool process, I am eager to give it a try.

[marysvillesign]

I've been awaiting a project for aluminum leaf. Good to see that it will have challenges. I'll add be adding Mica to the wish list now as well.