X/Y Motors Stalling

[jdervin]

My X/Y motors suddenly developed a case of stalling (or something else that makes a very ugly grinding sound). I think it has something to do with the jog speed. I dropped it to 4ips and the problem went away. Similarly, there were no issues when running at the move speed. I have a PRS Standard and have been jogging it at 6ips for quite some time now without problem (until yesterday), so I'm not completely sure that reducing the speed is the solution. Besides, I'd really like to continue jogging at that speed if at all possible.

Of course this happend at the end of the day on a Friday, so I'll have to wait 'til Monday to call ShopBot. In the meantime, can anyone offer some insight based on this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoWKC5_1DGA

FYI, I'm using the arrow keys to control the movement of the 'Bot in the video and found the problem to be 100% repeatable.

[bleeth]

John:

You are losing steps. Is it possible that there was something that "jarred" the gantry and it is now out of square and the x is not properly aligned on the y rails now? It only takes a little bit of out of alignment to have enough affect to reduce the top speed of jogging. The large amount of mass being moved by the standard motors requires very perfect alignment.

[ken_rychlik]

I agree with Dave. Loosing steps.

Drop the motors and move it around by hand and see where it is binding.

After you get it adjusted to run free by hand, then put the motors back on and you should be fine.

[jimmya]

Try this, turn off your limit switches and then do the same thing you did in your short clip. I think it is like my machine, I got one limit switch engaging for some reason. Use the VN command to get to the settings.

[ed_lang]

I don't think it is an X axis binding since it also showed the same problem when moving the Y axis.

What updates have happened to the computer?

Run a speed test-

Ed

[bill.young]

I have no troubleshooting suggestions (though I think Ed may be on the right track...that something's distracting your computer), but just wanted to make sure that you knew that there's someone from support on call 7 days a week. On the weekends they may not be in the ShopBot office so might not answer the phone, but they monitor the phone calls and tech support emails and will get back to you ASAP.

If you need to get up and running quickly it's the quickest way to get a problem resolved...they know the right questions to ask to narrow it down.

[gc3]

computer problem...RAM = jog speed

[Gary Campbell]

John....
Do you get the same reaction when jogging (using J* command) or moving (using M* command) at these same speeds? Are you sure that you havent set the [SK] jog speeds too high?

Agree with Gene. 2Gigs of Ram

Ed too. Run speed test

[jdervin]

Thanks all for the tips and suggestions.

Bill,
Thanks for the correction about SB support. I've just been going through tech support with a couple of other companies in the M-F/9-5 model and made an assumption. Now I know better.

++++++++++++++++

Well, today everything decided to work fine, however, my computer first booted to a blue screen of death and on reboot, to one of those start normally or safe mode option screens. Fact is, I've been having problems with conflicting drivers since I first installed the RPM tool last summer -- but that's another saga, which is chronicled in the following threads:

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5497
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11671

For now, I've decided that my problems are with the computer and likely USB or driver conflict related. Despite this decision, I've looked into several of the suggestions posted above. Here is what I did along with the results:

**Since the problem was occuring on the X and Y axis, and since it's been running quite well lately, without anything more jarring than a lost comm problem earlier in the week, I decided not to drop the motors for now. If the problem persists, I will look into this theory again.

**Using a Widget Works pen plotting tool, I marked the three corners of a Pythagorean 3-4-5 triangle and then measured the hypotenuse with a tape measure (the most accurate method I could think of, but certainly allows room for a margin of error) and it looked quite precise.

**I've tested both of the limit switches and they appear to be working fine.

**Updates: there have been a few of those "yellow shield" Windows updates in the past week, and I've udated the control software from 3.6.24 to 3.6.28 a couple of days ago. Other than that, things have remained pretty much status quo for awhile now.

**I ran the speed test ten times in succession (knowing that it would show problematic results based on previous experience). The range was 65.7-66.7 with an average of 66.6 (hmmm. ya think there's anything symbolic about that result?) On my to-do list is adding a USB 2.0 pci card as suggested to me in a previous thread. I've tried once, but apparently ordered the wrong size pci card and it didn't fit my computer.

**My RAM is 3.21 Gb, so I don't think there's an issue with it.

For now, the bottom line is that everything is working again. I've certainly got computer issues to resolve, but hopefully, there's nothing wrong with the 'Bot itself. Thanks again for all the help.

[jerry_stanek]

Download a copy of memtest an burn a cd run it and check your ram to see if there are any problems. Some times just one little sector of ram is bad and that will cause things not to work right.

[kevin]

John

Its your speed I had the same thing .I got rid of the hub thinking a direct line was better wrong I had scores of 67 with made all kinds of sounds that you think its mecchanical. Now with the hub i get 77 the machine is smoth also i disable antivirus when running the shpobot its senestive .

Also go in search type msconfig GET RID OF ALL BACKGROUND PROGRAMS LIKE ADOBE UPDATE.If I'am not clear you can find on line how to do it .Also a lap top runs the shopbot slow even with 4 gig of ram I tried both

[bleeth]

A comm speed of 66 is too low for PRS. Now that we know you are square and generally well adjusted it is clear that that is the issue. It needs to be over 75. When I rebuilt my PRT to PRS gantry and rails I had the same issue and the hub and high speed adapter fixed it. Got them in from Amazon or Tiger Direct for a total of like 50 bucks and have run smooth since with jog at 8ips.

[Gary Campbell]

$50 says control computer is a Dell.

There are (at least to me, as I believe in Brady) KNOWN ISSUES with DELL Computers that have NOT had a USB2 PCI card installed.

(disclaimer) This is not to say that this would be the one fix for all woes. USB2 PCI cards are an inexpensive test.

[gc3]

computer problem...RAM = jog speed

computer problem...

time to upgrade regardless of your current RAM

[widgetworks_unlimited]

I don't want to start a fight with Gary, but my PRS runs on a Dell without any problems.

I bought it new 2 years ago. It was the cheapest Dell desktop offered by Best Buy at the time. My Comm speed is over 75 and I haven't installed any special port cards, etc.

I may just be lucky with my situation, so I would follow all the advice offered above... Just thought that I should add my experience to the general pool of knowledge.

[ken_rychlik]

Mine runs on a dell too. After upgrading the ram (thanks Gary) All has been good. 83% speed test with a hub.

[Gary Campbell]

Kenneth, Russ...
I didnt say that they all have the problem. But since I have read Johns problem, I STILL have the finn on it. At least untill John says different.

[jdervin]

Yeah, yeah...
Dell it is. Though in their defense, I also have a Dell laptop (the one I use for ArtCAM, etc.) set up so I can run the 'Bot in a pinch, and it works flawlessly. I'd use it all the time if I didn't need it for a whole host of other activities too.

I ran Memtest today (twice... on both computers) and am happy to report that there were no errors on either.

I'm currently searching for a USB 2.0 PCI card with the physical dimensions small enough to fit an Optiplex 760 (small form factor). The specs from Dell describe the expansion slots as 1 low-profile PCIe x 16 and 1 low-profile PCI. The outside dimension of the Chassis is 3.65" high, so the card would have to be smaller than that. Any suggestions?

[Gary Campbell]

John...
Try this or search your favorite site for "low profile usb card". Most of the online retailers have a dozen of these shorty cards. I would a couple extra $ for Belkin brand

http://www.mwave.com/mwave/skusearch_v3.asp?scriteria=4373368&pagetitle=STARTECH.COM 2-port USB 2.0 pci low profile card

[jdervin]

So I got a Belkin PCI card and installed it today.
Speed test? Still in the mid 60's.


Here's how I had it hooked up:

SB/Serial bridge connected to external USB 2.0 hub
External USB hub connected to new PCI USB 2.0 card
Since I wasn't sure if the PCI should replace the hub, I tried a direct connection from SB/Serial bridge to new PCI USB card.
Speed test? Up slightly. 69.3% (But still well below the 75-85% that others are reporting.)

Oh, and along the way, there was a blue screen of death and later a notice from Microsoft that driver conflicts are causing stop crashes.

I've looked at ShopBot's USBview.exe diagnostic, but don't know enough to figure out what it might be telling me.

I'll keep posting as "progress" is made.

[Gary Campbell]

Dude...YA gotta UNGET that Dell! ;)

John...
Can you borrow another computer or laptop to see if the speed issue is computer or machine related? Some motherboards just dont like all hardware. You may have one of them.

[ken_rychlik]

I don't know why for sure but Frank at SB told me once that Belkin is the brand the do not recommend. i have a belkin hub and it works fine though. He said they use IO Gear brand the most.

I had major issues with the factory serial to usb cable. I am running off of one from Radio shack.

The biggest issue I ever had was with a HP pc on comm issues. :confused:

I have the little ground wire going from the serial shield to the controller ground and pc case also. That seemd to help.

I run around 70% without the hub. Mid 80's with it.

[jdervin]

Unfortunately, I'm not able to unget the Dell as this is the only platform (other than Mac) provided by the college (who also are the official owners of the 'Bot as well). I'm really feeling like Gene says, that it's time to upgrade to a new computer. I've had this one for three years and the college is on a four-year replacement plan, so getting a new one this year will take some begging, but maybe. In the meantime, I'm working on getting the IT people involved, but matching their schedules to mine isn't easy. Fortunately, I'm heading into a window of opportunity beginning next week. I've also asked SB support to call me on Monday.

As to testing with a second computer, I've got a Dell laptop that runs the 'Bot perfectly. I can't remember what the speed test results on it were, but I think it was in the high 70's. (Direct plug; no hub)

[ken_rychlik]

John for what it's worth, I am running mine on an old GX260 optiplex small form dell. It was suggested by someone else here, but I can't remember who. Maybe Don.

I gave 50 bucks for the pc and spent 100 putting 2 gigs of ram and a usb card into it.

Stripped and unloaded everything it didn't need to run the machine.

I just bought an identical one off of ebay for a spare, if that tells you how it runs the 'bot.

You may can get an older one from IT that they have laying around and have better luck??? Different brand or model may work fine.

Make sure it is stripped from all auto upgrades, and things running in the background. No net, no NOTHING that is not bot related.

If the machine runs good on your laptop, see if IT has a spare old laptop and just use that??

Either way, it seems like you should keep trying differnt pc's to run it till you find the combination that works.

[Gary Campbell]

John...
Dont misunderstand. Just borrow another one from the IT dept. If that one performs like your laptop, then you know the problem is the computer.

[paul_z]

I've been running my bot on a Dell for years and it has worked great; however, there are issues with some Dell computers that can cause almost any symptom.

http://news.cnet.com/PCs-plagued-by-bad-capacitors/2100-1041_3-5942647.html (http://news.cnet.com/PCs-plagued-by-bad-capacitors/2100-1041_3-5942647.html)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_OptiPlex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_OptiPlex)
http://www.upenn.edu/computing/provider/docs/dellletter200602.html (http://www.upenn.edu/computing/provider/docs/dellletter200602.html)
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2373069,00.asp (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2373069,00.asp)

[jdervin]

An update:
Just spoke with Ryan at ShopBot. He felt that my 69% speed test scores were fine and not indicative of whatever may be causing the X/Y stalling issue. He thinks it's directly related to my jogging the Standard at 6ips despite this being a relatively recent problem for me (I've been jogging at 6ips, problem free, for close to a year now). I asked him about the higher jog rates that other Standard users have been reporting and he felt that they were possible, but not the norm.

Ryan also wants me to drop the motors and test for freedom of movement, which is what I'll do next, but I still find it difficult to believe that both the X and Y rails would develop the same mechanical problem on the same day at the same time.

As to my in house IT people, they're being sluggish in responding, so that avenue hasn't been explored yet. Maybe I should have my wife make them one of her rasberry pies so I can get on their "preferred treatment" list.

[jdervin]

Later that same day...
Dropped the motors. Everything glides real smoothly, especially the Y-axis which gets propelled towards the front of the table by the Lexan cable guide acting like a spring. Took the opportunity to add another coat of grease to the racks as I figured that couldn't hurt.

Hooked up my laptop and did a speed test. Clocked in at 79-80% (with USB hub in line; 72-73% without). Ran a bunch of tests at 6ips. No problems. Even tried controlling the spindle RPM tool while the spindle was running. Again, everything worked like a charm.

I know Ryan's an expert, but I just don't see how it can be anything other than my dedicated computer.

[kevin]

John or anybody eles this topic has come a bit

My 2 cents a laptop will barely run a shopbot alpha .But wiil run it

Everybody seems to be spending huge money on software ,But little on a decent computer .I have my bot runnung on a computer that I made from parts at tigercomputer.com.

8 gigs of ram
sli video cards
etc for less than a thousnad or pretty close

If you look at Aspire its huge amount of computing power it needs

I learn the hard way I used laptop to run the bot problems

All gateway , HP , etc are loaded wit built in videocard .You need a workstation

[adrianm]

Kevin, don't forget that a lot of people use two computers. One for running the ShopBot control software and nothing else and the other one for running PartWorks, Aspire and other software.

A low powered machine by todays standards is more than adequate for the former purpose.

[jerry_stanek]

O am running an old pentium 4 as my Shopbot control computer I has 2 gigs of ram and is pretty much stripped of all other software. I can push it to 8 IPS to surface my table.

[kevin]

I don't offer this as advise but i had a lot of fustration with slow computers on my alpha .When it happens you think mechanical


This is agood topic

[andyb]

John,
I have a Dell GX270 running my bot. One other thing you might want to try is to update the BIOS on the PC. Dell has had several little problem that updating the BIOS has fix. They are notorious for USB issue. I think it was mentioned somewhere before a few years back that someone resolved their movement issues by update the BIOS. It increased their score by about 5-6 precentage points if I remember right.

Hope this helps.

Andy B.

[gc3]

An update:
Just spoke with Ryan at ShopBot. He felt that my 69% speed test scores were fine and not indicative of whatever may be causing the X/Y stalling issue. He thinks it's directly related to my jogging the Standard at 6ips despite this being a relatively recent problem for me (I've been jogging at 6ips, problem free, for close to a year now). I asked him about the higher jog rates that other Standard users have been reporting and he felt that they were possible, but not the norm.

Ryan also wants me to drop the motors and test for freedom of movement, which is what I'll do next, but I still find it difficult to believe that both the X and Y rails would develop the same mechanical problem on the same day at the same time.

As to my in house IT people, they're being sluggish in responding, so that avenue hasn't been explored yet. Maybe I should have my wife make them one of her rasberry pies so I can get on their "preferred treatment" list.

...wow 6ips on your machine....and shopbot thinks thats the problem?

on my vintage pr using a prt control box I can jog xy 6ips/ z 3 ips with no problem....after updating the control computer. i know there is a huge difference in the machines but you should be able to jog at the max speed of your software....if not then why does shopbot use those parameters?

heck I have even cut cabinet parts running x y at 6ips and z 3ips with no lost steps....

upgrade your control computer and you will be running fine.

[kevin]

http://www.tigerdirect.com/sectors/campaigns/include/evgaStore.asp

Thats the parts I would use to build my next computer .I've been building computers since 1992


The other computers can run a alpha but barely

I would agree with Gene toss the computer

[adrianm]

Got to say I disagree completely.

My Alpha runs perfectly happy on a 1gb machine with an Intel Celeron processor and a built-in graphics card. Runs all day every day without a hitch.

[jerry_stanek]

http://www.tigerdirect.com/sectors/campaigns/include/evgaStore.asp

Thats the parts I would use to build my next computer .I've been building computers since 1992


The other computers can run a alpha but barely

I would agree with Gene toss the computer


What other apps are on these computers that can barely run your Alpha. I would say that there is something running or trying to run in the back round.

[kevin]

Jerry
At first I was what ever the computer turns on .

But after a couple of lost comcation erors

One problem was moister on a terminal i WAS THINKING OF PUTTING A BAG OF SEILCA IN THE CONTROL BOX

I'am pretty anal about things running in the background msconfig aleast once a week .

The alpha are very senistive when running at full speed.I run mine at 12in cabinet parts pro
My point is rule out the computer then if you have a problem with the cnc you can rule out the computer. Go from there
Most of us have to sevice it by are selfs