Jumpin in

[chunkstyle]

Hi all,

The shop that I used to outsource to is asking if I would be interested in doing a job for them on my shopbot!

Attached is an image of a sign that needs to be done exactly the same way again. The shop is requesting that I bid it for machining of the blue painted elements only, unpainted, delivered to them.

Signage is not really my line but times being what they are....I'm willing to give it a go. Only problem that I can see is how to reproduce the book and ribbons on the medal using Partworks. Looks like a job for 3-d as seperate elements and attached to the sign? Is there a way to do these elements in partworks? If not, would anyone be interested in doing the toolpathing in a program that could?

Would anyone have a guess as to pricing for the scope of this one. Sorry for the newbie questioning. I would like to get more if this type of graphics work as the cabinetry work has been very quiet.


Thanks for any advice,
Tim

[signtist]

It's much quicker to machine the profile shapes and then hand chisle (carve) some details. It really is easy. Looks like HDU.
Wholesale signs like this $50-$55sf.
$95 sf for the carved stuff. The ribbon is all flat except one area.
5 minutes with a chisle and a rasp.
The book - maybe 30 or 40 minutes.
John www.signgraphics1.com (http://www.signgraphics1.com)

[chunkstyle]

Thanks John,

I appreciate the pricing insight. By the way, your online portfolio looks awesome. Love the illustration work as well as the typography.
Looks like this job won't start anytime soon, if I actually have to do it. I'm reading as much as I can from the forum. Anyone have any good books to recommend that deals with the construction of, materials for and finishing signs? It would probably be wise to get as much schooling as I can between now and then. Thanks a lot. I appreciate the advice.

Tim

[joewino]

Tim - go to www.letterville.com and check out some of the responses on the "Bullboard". It is a discussion group like this only it is made up of sign folks.

There are links there to suppliers, journals, and some "how-to" articles.

[chunkstyle]

Thanks for the link Raymond.

Looks like a really good place to start learning. Just finished registering. Much appreciated.

Tim

[joe]

Tim,

Congratulations on your commision.

I encorage you to jump in and learn a few new techniques however projects of this scale can take some time. Experienced sign artists like John Arnot can do this work in their sleep. First timers will need lots of luck and study time. Although you may not make much money on the first one, you'll learn lots of new techniques.

You could do this forum a favor and post your progress as you work through the work. Letting all of us learn from you.

Be sure to tell your client what this is going to cost them. For me it would be close to $1,500.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[chunkstyle]

Hi Joe,

I don't know if I'll get the job or not. Have to wait and see if the bid gets accepted. If I do get it I'll do as you suggested and post the progress (or lack of).

$1500 for just the routing out? Jeeze, I already learned something.

Thanks,
Tim

[joe]

Tim,

I did a double take on the calculation and it seems about right. What you would be doing is building the complete sign. The job of painting and gilding is a minor part. You'll be doing the heavy lifting. As a newbe with this kind of work, you will spend a consdierable more time figuring the best approaches and calculations. That's the fun part.

For your information, a gilded sign of this size will retail between $125 to $140 a sq ft.

If you get it, I know you'll do a good job.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[john_hartman]

It's much quicker to machine the profile shapes and then hand chisle (carve) some details. It really is easy. Looks like HDU.
Wholesale signs like this $50-$55sf.
$95 sf for the carved stuff. The ribbon is all flat except one area.
5 minutes with a chisle and a rasp.
The book - maybe 30 or 40 minutes.
John www.signgraphics1.com (http://www.signgraphics1.com)

John- from a pricing stand point; do you separate the 3d carvings from 2.5d carvings? So if there is an object, in this case a book, that is 3d; does the entire sign get the 3d carving rate?

Also, for a sq. ft. pricing, what if there a lot of detail/lots of areas to sand and just generally a complex design? The sign pictured looks about as easy as it can get. How do you make a standardized sq. ft. pricing structure work? Or do you? I can see how a wholesale client may want this, but don't you need to price each project as a custom job?

I'm also a full time cabinet maker and have been approached with the same signage offer. This sign shop would like to have a sq. ft. price from me. Is this how this industry works?

Many thanks. John Hartman

[signtist]

I price just the "book" as 3D rate.....it's not a human face or anything that has to be exact. It's real simple. I look at that part and just add some time to it. After you cut out the contour shape, it would most likely take a hour to carve.
The ribbon part would only take a few minutes, even if it was wood.

[joe]

Perhaps we should re-visit John's suggested wholesale pricing which is feel is very fair.

This sign looks approx. 30 square ft. and at John's $55@ that comes to $1,650. which doesn not include the additional pieces. With those additions the total price could reach close to $2K.

Anyway, no matter what the final price, all of this conversation should be very helpful for a novice cabinet maker. I'd see if your client could provide the type setting and profile cuts as vectors. That would save lots of trouble. O, by the way, it would also help to know the depth of the V carving. A 90 degree bit may not work. Perhaps a 110 or 120 bit would be best. I'd also see if the client would like to prime the panel first and if they would consider finish painting and masking. Gilding goes much cleaner and faster with a mask. I noticed there is a black outline around the gold. That really set it off.

J.

[john_hartman]

This sign looks approx. 30 square ft. and at John's $55@ that comes to $1,650. which doesn not include the additional pieces. With those additions the total price could reach close to $2K.

This sq. ft price doesn't include material does it?

[chunkstyle]

Well waddya know!

Just when I thought that I dodged a bullet on this sign proposal the phone rings informing me that it's on. What are we talking about here? Something like 6-7 months to make a decision.

I'm wondering if anyone here could produce a file for me to run the book and ribbons on our PRS Standard? I have Cut 3-d so running a stl. file should be doable. Right now I don't have the spare time to compare/ acquire/learn a 3-D program to generate the book/ribbon shapes. Would anyone be interested in some design work and how much? I could supply rough dimensions of what the sizes need to be and have already created the tool paths for the type fonts and border outlines.

Thanks for any help.
Is it me or is everybody making decisions all at once lately?

Tim

[tmerrill]

Tim,

This was made for your project and you aren't going to find it cheaper.

I would suggest getting it in .v3m format which will work great in Cut3D.

http://www.vectorart3d.com/store/index.cfm?Fuseaction=Detail&ID=50070

The ribbons can be quickly done with 2D toolpaths.

Tim

[chunkstyle]

WOW!

Thanks Tim. Never thought to look at a source like this. Never knew they existed!

Would you know if the v3m. file could be imported into v-carve for display purposes? Shop that wants me to cut it is hoping I can supply them with an image to pass along to the client.
Hoping to avoid going thru PhotoShop hoops to create final image for client to sign off on.

Thanks again,
Tim

[hh_woodworking]

The files that I have gotten from them in a set has a jpeg image of the file for that purpose. I would think you would get that also with a single file purchase. If not I bet they will send it to you

[tmerrill]

Yes, you can show this in a VCP file. You would need to do some trickery and create toolpaths just for the purpose of the preview.

At the bottom of this page is a PDF document that outlines the steps to prepare a 3D model in Cut3D and then import the toolpaths into VCP. These would be the steps you would follow:

http://www.vectric.com/WebSite/Vectric/support/aspire3_vcp6/aspire3_vcp6_tutorials_tut_mach.html

Tim

[chunkstyle]

Thanks Ed and Tim,

I will be working on the project later today. Your advice will be a huge help.
I'll post the progress.

Much appreciated.
Tim

[chunkstyle]

Hi Tim,

I'm wondering if you have been able to import a 3D tool path file into Partworks? I'm following along with the tutorial listed as 'Importing_3D_Toolpaths' and am attempting to follow the instructions when I hit a wall for the importation of the Cut 3D file (.V3D) using the File pull down menu: Import Photo Vcarve or Cut 3D Toolpaths...

I don't seem to have the import option for these toolpaths. Partworks 3.0 only gives me bitmapped and vector images as import options.
Is there another way to get the Cut 3D toolpaths imported into Partworks that I'm missing?

Just wondering. Thanks for any help.

Tim

[tmerrill]

Yes, you can use the icon in the top row under File Operations that is labeled "Import Vectors from a File" and this should import a .v3d file.

Tim

[chunkstyle]

DOOOh!...

Thanks Tim. I'm on my way.

[chunkstyle]

Well so far I've been able to get the proposal image pretty close to the original sign. Problem I'm having is the ribbons. Shop owner I'm doing this for so he can get approval wants the ribbons to look like original....
Haven't found a clip art ribbon that I could use. Would anybody have a source for something that would be close?

Thanks,
Tim

[chunkstyle]

Design was approved last week and the mill shop that's subbing the carving work to me is asking to get started right away. Anyone have thoughts on what to use besides HDU? The mill shop owner is leery of it's long term durability for outside application and also the need to fabricate a mounting method that will be properly supporting this in 40+ mph winds in the winter.
Would OSB or medex be a suitable material if properly finished? Would OSB give good details and is there any draw backs for using one over the other?

[Brady Watson]

Have you looked at Extira (http://www.extira.com/) ?

-B

[blackhawk]

Tim - OSB would be my last choice of material for a sign. I don't even like to use OSB for its intended purpose as sheathing. I hate cutting that stuff even with a circular saw.

I am just a beginner sign maker, but my first choice would be HDU.

[joe]

Tim,

Well at last there is some progress on your sign.

The premier material is vertical, clear heart, redwood. I'd suggest you using yellow pine but this material is for professionals who how to glue it up.

Your original photo looks like wood and has lasted a long time. You can sharpen your skills on this kind of work. For example, there are gold letters with a thin outline. Those are two great techniques to work with. I'd use HDU for the bible. If you use a band saw to cut out the basic shape, a big old wood rasp will make easy carving. I'd extimate one hour in carving. It's lots of fun. So jump in and have a ball.

About Extira. I love this material but it doesn't maintain detail. It fuzzes up bit time. A 1" sheet is heavy as lead. Not for this kind of work.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[joe]

Tim,

Well at last there is some progress on your sign.

The premier material is vertica grainl, clear heart, redwood.

Your original photo looks like the sign was made from wood and has lasted a long time. I'm sure your client would appreciate this. Twenty years is normal for clear heart redwood. You can sharpen your creative skills with this kind of work. For example, the letters are gold. They have thin black outline which was done with a french quill. Those are two great techniques to work with. I'd use HDU for the bible. If you use a band saw to cut out the bible shape a good old, big, wood rasp will make easy carving. I'd extimate one hour in carving. It's lots of fun. So jump in and have a ball. Everyone would enjoy a step by step

About Extira. I love this material but it doesn't hold detail. It often fuzzies up on small. A 1" sheet is heavy as lead. It's not a good choice for this kind of work.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com/)

[chunkstyle]

Thanks for the feed back all,

I'm leaning toward using .75-1" thick HDU and bonding it to a stiffer stiffer substrate, maybe OSB.

I thought about using a solid wood glue up but must admit the idea of that large a panel, outside, gives me the willies. I'm sure an experienced sighn pro would not have a problem but i feel like I'm already taking on more than I would want for a first sign.

Shop that is subbing this to me is asking that I go ahead and finish the sign as well as cutting it out so the job has grown in scope.

I might take a shot at carving the smaller horizontal element, with dates on it, out of solid wood though.

I'll keep posting on the progress. Maybe a cautionary tale for some, comedy for others http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/images/icons/icon11.gif

[Gary Campbell]

Tim...
DO NOT use OSB. Use something that may have a chance outside like MDO. Seal the edges well.

[chunkstyle]

WHOOOPS!,

Must need another cup-o-coffee. Meant MDO. Thanks Gary (yet again : )

[chunkstyle]

Picked up 15 lbs HDU last friday and painted it with SW exterior grade latex enamel paint in blue. I'm going with Professor Crumly rubber cement and transfer paper masking technique to cut thru with the letters.

Decided after two coats to do a little test. I took some rubber cement and applied a small patch in a corner. Let it dry and rolled it off the painted surface with my finger. Noticed the rubber cement was pulling off the paint!
surface of paint was a little tacky after several hours of dry time so I'm wondering if there is a minimum amount of waiting period that you sign veterans will wait before trying to apply a mask?

I applied a third coat last night around 6 p.m. and it was still a little tacky this morning. I have it out on sawhorses in the sun as were getting some nice dry weather for this time of year. Around mid 70's- low 80's. Hopefully I can get this cut soon but don't want to botch the cutting procedure for the template/ letters.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
Holy moly, I never realized how hard it would be to find rubber cement. Looks like one of those items that has slowly disappeared from store shelves around here. Found it in small cans at Michael's arts and crafts store.

Thanks a lot,
Tim

[blackhawk]

Tim - I would just use Avery or Gerber mask since you have a smooth surface. The rubber cement doesn't have any advantage unless you are trying to mask a rough surface such as rough cut lumber straight from the sawmill. I have tried the rubber cement on semi-rough surfaces and have never had any luck. The dust skirt always rolls the rubber cement right off during cutting.

[jimboy]

Tim,
Waiting to see how this all works out for you. May have a sign job like this in the works for us.
Jim

[joe]

Tim & Brad,

While rubber cement isn't very aggresive, it might stick to paint that hasn't formed a good adhesion to it's surface. Most latex paints takes several days to harden off.

How to use RC

This product is good for rough sufaces only. I'd suggest using vinyl mask on smooth surfaces. I lightly sand my rough lumber to remove the splinters and debri before pouring on my cement. You can let it stand ten or fifteen minutes before applying the paper transfer tape. Then I burnish it down with a rivit brush. That gets full contack, paper and cement, as a single piece. I've never had any trouble except with an up spiral bit.

Keep in mind, rough boards do not have and even, strait lines. The nature of the material is wavy, depending on the surface texture. Prior to painting I sometimes paint the well of the letter with the same color paint as the background. That way there is no chance of bleading. Some woods will blead something awful but this will fix that.

It only takes a few minutes to perfect these techniques. So before jumping in goolashes and all, make a little test or two. I always make tests on every project. You never know what the wood will do!

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[Greencarvings]

McMaster Carr comes to the rescue again!

Rubber Cement

Quickly bonds paper and allows repositioning until fully dried. Cement spreads evenly; dries without shrinking. Color is translucent. These products are compliant under all state VOC rules in effect on January 1, 2011.
Each
8-oz. Jar 74725A12 $4.38
1-qt. Can 74725A14 10.96
1-gal. Container 74725A15 31.94

[chunkstyle]

Thanks for the tip Patrick,

Were working like bees trying to get the sign completed right now.

So far my my notes on the project are that:

1. Though I can see the value in using the rubber cement for rougher surfaces, it should not have been used in this project. A lot of time is being spent getting the transfer template peeled off the smaller type fonts cleanly. Seems like the V-bit will smear the rubber cement into the edges of the fonts and has caused a lot of touch up. I still have to V-carve the lower 2x8 portion of the sign today. I glued up some west coast cedar and hit it with some high solids primer and sanded smooth. Since the surface is very smooth I will try the transfer paper without the rubber cement and see how that goes.

2. I have to figure out why the 3D clip art machined so poorly. Tool pathing was done in PW 3D and I initially tried the sbinch post for the roughing path. Tool pathing was rough and jerky.
Tried using SB arc inch post for the finishing tool path but didn't see any improvement. Caused a lot of jerkiness. Call to SB about it resulted in looking at ramping values to try and get the jerkiness reduced during cutting. Wondering if their was anything with the file format also.

3. I think I would look at a small air brush to apply the fill color to the small type fonts in an effort to speed up the process.

That's it for now. Try to get some pics of the progress posted. Client wants it delivered tomorrow so it's going to be a long day.

[chunkstyle]

Done! Thanks for all the help and advice. Don't know how I would have figured it out without this forum and the members.

Tim

[bleeth]

Great job Tim. Don't let anyone tell you different!!

[jimboy]

Tim I think you've got it
Jim

[sebago_signworks]

very nice.