help with PC/shopbot issues

[laconcepts]

I am hoping that someone out there has some ideas.
I am at Barksdale AFB in Louisiana and we have a PRT 48X96- 4g that we have had since about 1999. Unfortunately we have not used it a lot until recently due to many government circumstances. Hehe
Anyway we are now using Aspire V3 and have also purchased a new HP laptop to run the machine with. We had been using desktops that were on the government LAN system and causing us many problems.

Now with all that said here is our problem.
During any significant VCarving, engraving, 3d etc, our machine will come to a complete halt (generally early in the program). SB3 will be locked and will not close unless you do a Control Alt del.
Before we do that we have to write down the coordinates since where ever the machine stops at will be “0” on all axis’s when it is restarted. We also have to touch off the tool again as well. No matter what we do the tool will stop in the exact same spot. Sometimes those dimensions can change if some changes are made in the toolpath.
Since we have been working with Shopbot tech support and been unable to find a solution we have everything set up on a new desktop that the base has let us use without being on the LAN. We also set up all of the shopbot software on one of the supervisors personal laptop. Both of those computers do exactly the same thing in exactly the same spot as the laptop that we bought for the machine. Since we are having the same problem you would think that maybe it is in the program. Well it works perfectly on my personal laptop. I have used mine on the machine numerous times and is the only one that will work. It is the oldest one out of the bunch and the least powerful.
Here is a bit of rundown on the PCs
My HP laptop--- 3gig Ram, 32bit (the only one that works)
New HP Shopbot laptop--- 6gig ram—64 bit
Rons new HP laptop---- 4gig ram---64 bit
New HP desktop__ 4gig ram----32bit

Here is different things that we have tried both with Shopbot tech support and without
1. different feed rates, stopovers, depth of cuts etc
2. turned off all power saving settings (shopbot suggestion)
3. turned off anti virus
4. let PC perform all updates (Base IT suggestion)
5. added a USB hub (shopbot suggestion)
6. took off USB extension cables from 4g IO gear
7. ran a three different shopbot post processors in Aspire
8. checked for grounding issues (problems seem to be way to consistent for this to be an issue between three CPUs)
9.


No matter what we try we just cant get either of the 3 computers to work. I am hoping that somewhere out there, someone has had the same problem and can tell us what the deal is. I have a feeling that there is something turned on/off in either those computers and is not letting them work. It just doesn’t make sense to me. Its probably something very simple that we are not aware of.
If anyone has any ideas please let me know. We are about will to try anything at this point.

Thank you in advance

Kelly Watkins (Mr)

[jerry_stanek]

What OS is each of these computers? Have you tried running the computers in virtual machine running windows XP.

[laconcepts]

Thanks for your reply Jerry.

Each of the new Laptops are running windows 7.
My laptop that works perfectly is Vista and the desktop that will not work is also running Vista.

At this point there is no consistency there either. 32 or 64 bit / vista or Windows 7..

Thank you for any assistance
Kelly

[myxpykalix]

One suggestion i would try, as shopbot suggested was to shut the power off from the computer, and control box but ALSO I would go to the circuit box and shut off the circuit that controls the bot also. Because that then makes the control box lose some of the temporary settings within its memory that might be causing the problem.

Although you mention that it stops in exactly the same place with each different cpu, that says to me that it is something to do with the table, or the control box.

You say it is grounded, but is the dust collection grounded? I also don't think it is that, if it stops in exactly the same place each time but it may contribute to it.

If all the steppers run back and forth over the table while doing this file and only when it gets to this particular point it stops then I might rule out a mechanical issue.

Since I am unsure of this other technical guys could answer this, is there a file line size limit? Maybe somewhere there is a setting for your file line size limits that is set incorrect?

[jerry_stanek]

What happens when you run the file in preview mode?

[jerry_stanek]

Have you tried to run it in compatibility mode. Right click on your shopbot start and choose properties under compatibility set it to run as XP service pack 3.

[gerryv]

A few thoughts
Look for what's DIFFERENT. For example:
(a) If the other three computers are using military or gov't issue versions of the OS (if such exist) and you're using a consumer version is there perhaps a difference? Perhaps the max. number of lines of code they can handle for some security reason?
(b) If you're loading the Vectric software and/or the OS on your computer and the same person is loading it/them on the other three, you might uninstall then sit side by side and begin the installation process to see if either of you are making different choices
(c) Is it possible that someone is mistaken the new HP is actually running in 64 bit mode, making yours the only one running in 32 bit mode or (a long shot if it's even possible) could it have been setup/loaded in 64 bit mode and since changed to 32 bit mode?
(d) You've done an update on the SB, Aspire or OS that the others verifiably haven't, or the opposite

Look for what thing or combination of things CHANGED at the time or just previous to the time the problem first occurred. For example:
(a) changed to a new version of Aspire
(b) downloaded an update

Keep an eye out for some guy pulling the plug behind your back ;)

[adrianm]

You say during any significant work it comes to a halt but quite early in the process.

Does it do the same on a simpler job that runs for that amount of time?

Say the first job takes two hours and crashes after 10 minutes does a 15 minute job crash after 10 as well.

Sounds a bit like it might be a crash when the SB3 program is attempting to buffer the larger files into memory.

Why that should affect all the other computers but not yours I'm not sure but yours does have less memory than the others.

One quick test (presuming there is more than one card/stick) would be to pull a memory card/stick from the desktop and see if it still crashes in the same place.

[Gary Campbell]

Has the screensaver been disabled? This is required for running files on a dedicated computer.

[laconcepts]

[B]Thank you all for the suggestions.
Lets see if I can remember everything and reply to the all. hehe
First I have not disabled the screen savers in any of the computers. My computer works fine but the screen saver is on. With that said not all computers are the same so I will give that a try.
I will also try turning off the circuts to see if the control box memory is an issue.
Regarding loading the software on all the computer.. I was the one that loaded it on 3 of the computers and I was with Ron when he loaded it on his so everything was done the same there.
The only computer out of the bunch that is a government computer is the desktop and that one is not on the LAN system so there is a little bit of a positive. I do know that it would naturally be configured for the government but it acts just like the other computers do.
When I mentioned that they stop in the exact same spot everytime... it happens right down to the exact .001 of an inch on all of the PCs except mine
The table works great from one end to the other while on my laptop. WE can make any jog or move commands that we want anywhere on the table. Also there has been several 4'X4' size simple cutouts (2d) made on the table and those files work great. It seems like any 2.5/3d moves or when there is alot of code working at one time it is just too much. We have ran numerous files with engraving and vcarving in them and have the same problem. IN some cases where we were vcarving a name for instance and the machine would stop earlly in the file, we would delete the previous text that were ran and start where it left off. It would maybe cut the next letter and hang up again. We almost had to cut one letter at a time. So it would eventually get past a point in the file if you started deleting things. WE have had luck a couple times of making some change in the file like slowing down the feed rate or changing the depth of cut and it would at least push the point where it would freeze up furthur in the file..
Weird stuff. I just dont get it. i would love it if it were something simple like the screensaver.
Regarding the dust collector grounding.. hmm well the only dust collector we have is the operator standing there with the shopvac hose in his hand or connected to the boot. Also tech support mentioned some noise coming from the porter cable router motor back through the system.. Welll it lock up just the same with the router completely off so we can rule out dust collectors and routers....
It will probably be Monday before we can try a few more things. Keep the suggestions coming please.. I certainly appreciate them all

Merry Christmas
Kelly

[srwtlc]

What version ShopBot software are you running? There was a version some time back that had a "max file lines" issue. Just a thought.

[laconcepts]

I am running the latest and great version of SB#. I have updated it 3 times during all of this mess with the same results each time..

Very confusing..
Kelly

[frank134]

are you running windows 7? Just for fun try a little older computer with xp prof and see what happen.

[laconcepts]

My personal laptop that works perfectly is Vista, the desktop that does not work is Vista, the other two brand new laptops that do not work are Windows 7.
Doesnt appear to be any consistencey there.

Thank you Frank
Kelly

[frank134]

I went thru five comupter to. One old xp the work good but slow, two brand new with window7 lost com port or just couldn't find it at all. all desk top. my laptops one with window7 did not work the other xp that did work. findly a hp desktop with windows xp pro that been working very good and also give me good speed.

[laconcepts]

Encouraging news there Frank.. hehe. That would be my luck. We buy two brand new computers specifically for running equipment and cant use either of them.. UUgghh.
There is a gentleman that works in our unit that is pretty good with computers. He is usally who I take my personal PCs to and he said last week that he would come take a look at them. Im gonna let him compare whatever he needs to on mine(since it actually works) to the others and see if he can find anything out of the ordinary. Maybe we will have some luck that way. If I find out anything that may benifit anyone else I will certainly post it here.

Thanks Frank
Klly

[frank134]

thank kelly. I sure would like to used one of the new hp units I have running wondows 7 on it. I brought the one just for the shopbot.

[srwtlc]

Kelly, it would be worth it to try a speed test on each of them. Would be interesting to see if the one that works actually has a higher rating.

The test program can be found here C:\Program Files\ShopBot\Diagnostics\SpeedTest.exe

[laconcepts]

Thanks Scott. WE are going to give the speed test a try. I had heard about it but did not have any idea how to do it.
I ran it in compatability mode today for XP and the new laptop did exactly the same thing in the same exact spot.
Any programs work fine in preview mode so it is apparently in the communication with the controller.
We hooked my laptop up to it again today and did some more Vcarving and it worked perfectly through the entire program(s).
Im hoping to get a man in the unit to come look all of the PCs this week or the first of next week to see if he can find any major differences between mine that works and the ones that done.

Thank you again Scott,
kelly

[jerry_stanek]

How are you loading the file. Are you running it off a thumb drive are did you load it on the hard drive.

[laconcepts]

Jerry,

I loaded the file on each of the computers harddrives. As I mentioned before we have had this problem with any file that has had any significant code. Some simple 2D cutouts or profiles seem to work fine but if you add in some VCarve or engraving (just forget all together about 3D) and it locks up. Same exact spot each time. It could be a dimension of X.097 and Y .656 (just a location off the top of my head) and it will lock up there each and every time on each of the computers except my personal laptop. We will have to Ctrl Alt Del to get out of SB3 and when restarted it will be at X0., Y0. where ever it stopped at previously.
I hope we can try the speed test on each of them today.
Thanks again,
Kelly

[jerry_stanek]

I would start looking to see what software is not on your laptop that is on all the other computers

[laconcepts]

Jerry, that is something that we are going to look at next. My computer guru friend at the base is going to come take a look at all of them and do a comparison to see what if anything stands out.

Scott,
We ran the speed test today. We ran it on the desktop, the new shopbot laptop and my laptop. Ron didnt have his today. The transmission effeciency needs to be 70% or above according to the speed test application.
Well the desktop and the new laptop that will not work are in the 78-85% range and my laptop that is the only one that works is running 67%.. Strange since it is below the minimum. Doesnt make since there. Scott at shopbot told me today to try a "Ferrite Choke". You wrap the USB cable around it and it is suppose to reduce or eliminate noise. Hmmm well I guess I will try anything right now.
Any more suggestions???? please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL.

Thank you gentlemen,
KellyB][/B]

[frank134]

are you using a usb hub and if so what make?

[ken_rychlik]

Have you checked to see how stable the power supply to the building is?

Does the base run off of generators, or a normal power plant?

Just a thought.

I bet it will be something very simple and cheap when it's all said and done. Finding the issue can drive you nuts though.

[navigator7]

Loose wire in the e-stop(s)?

[ken_rychlik]

The e-stop would trigger a light on the control panel and also would not cause the pc to freeze.

[steve_g]

In my mind (admittedly messed up) the key to this whole issues is that it stops AT THE SAME PLACE every time. Most of the suggestions would not explain this phenomenon. Once when I had a similar situation it turned out to be the table limits setting being messed up.

Just to be clear, do all runs on all computers that don’t work, stop at the same line #?

Steve

[navigator7]

In my mind (admittedly messed up) the key to this whole issues is that it stops AT THE SAME PLACE every time. Most of the suggestions would not explain this phenomenon. Once when I had a similar situation it turned out to be the table limits setting being messed up.

I wonder if "Table Limits" can be applied to my wife's thought pattern?
Her programming shuts down at the same place every time too.....Something to do with anything CNC.

As we are brainstorming..........

Perhaps all I need to do is extend her X,Y & Z limits leaving me only with a simple W argument.

You are brilliant, Steve!

[laconcepts]

Yes Steve they all stop at the same line #.
keep in mind that other programs stop at other lines.
Update: today we took Scott at shopbot suggestion and installed Ferrite Chokes on the usb cables. He said we are getting noise back to the PC. Well the result was "FAIL". try again shopbot. That didnt work either.
After another fail today with some even more simple engrave it seems to happen when there is some small detail in the design. This file made it all the way through but jumped out of position everytime we ran it. We finally put it on my PC and it ran perfect. It wasnt as xetailed as the other file so it was able to continue but was all jacked up.
Im starting to get P.Od now. Just doesnt make sense.
If like Scott says each PC is affected by noise different than another then why do they all stop in the same exact spot???????
Hmmmm
Keep the ideas coming gentlemen!!! Please!!!!
Kelly

[steve_g]

Just for grins... break the offending file (before the crash point) into two files and run them separately. Let us know the results.

Steve


PS Chuck... my wife says that my table limits problem involves the dinner table!

[ken_rychlik]

Please explain about the file that made it all the way through but being jacked up.

Making it through is a good thing, but what was actually messed up?

We need all the info we can get to for brainstorming. lol

[jerry_stanek]

If the file runs fine on your computer then every thing is ok with the Shopbot. It has to be something on the computers that can't run the file. Something is interfering with the file if the computers lock up. I would say it was a ram issue but that would only be on 1 computer. Are you running Microsoft essentials that could be the problem.

[navigator7]

I'm Mac.... but could this be a "sleep" issue?
Running a 3D printer, files would stop after so many minutes of inactivity by me.

keep in mind that other programs stop at other lines. Keep the ideas coming gentlemen!!! Please!!!!


In my mind (admittedly messed up) the key to this whole issues is that it stops AT THE SAME PLACE every time. Most of the suggestions would not explain this phenomenon. ~ Steve

Is the machine being told to stop?

Did you import the some of the file from another program?
What about a new Save-as of the old file? Select All and convert to lines? I'm wondering if you are trying to cut data that doesn't exist?

For example click your mouse and drag down from here:
[color="WHITE"]What you probably see
is blank space but there is data here.[/color="WHITE"]

Darn...it doesn't work but the idea remains.


Or exporting to an .stl file?

[gerryv]

I'm of the same mind as Steve on this. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you've indicated that it stops at exactly the same line AND exactly the same (physical?) location on the table. This seems logical if you're always using the same start point so my question is then, what if you're not? I.e. What if you run the file again but with an offset or so that you're zero'd to start at some other physical location on the table?

If that makes no difference and the problem remains the same, I have to think that things are pointing toward the software. Because you are running into the same problem with different OS's then it would seem that you should narrow your investigation to either the SB or Vectric software. At this point I would be tempted to fully uninstall those pkg's including any associated "preferences" and reinstall an older version of the SB program and then your Vectric software and follow by running the same file once again and see what happens.

That's not a shot at SB or Vectric at all, simply an observation that the more sophisticated software becomes the more it becomes like humans - subject to mood swings for no apparent or logical reason ;)

[gerryv]

But then again, I also see what Jerry just said as making good sense :o

Would that point to your computer not "looking ahead" so much which might suggest that the SB program is hitting a ceiling - which seems a little surprising as some of the power users here would surely have run into that unless maybe they have less straight vectors in their arcs or something similar? Over my head now... Well, you say keep the questions coming :D

[laconcepts]

I hope I can remember to reply to everything.
First let me say that we have ran the file and other files that have done the same thing at different locations on the table so that doesnt seem to be an issue. Well as far as my knowledge goes.
The file was generated in Aspire V3 but we have had the same issues with V2.
WE saved it and moved this particular file to each computer with the same results except for my laptop. We chose to keep testing with this file because it stops within a minute into the program. others have waited furthur in the program to do the same thing. That would make for an even more agravating day if we had to wait a while for it to do the same thing. Im sure you gentlemen can feel my pain there.
Ken... The file that jacked up on us today was an engraving of the features on the side of a KC135 vertical stablizer. WE cut a piece of alum to resemble the tail of an airplane and stick it in a plaque. We were engraving just some simple lines of the panels on the tail but all of the features were not lining up with others like they were layed out in Aspire. Ron thought something was jumping in the machine. I said it could be a simplier version of the problems we are having with the lockup so we put my computer on and it ran perfectly. Everything was where it was suppose to be. We actually ran it the first time with mine right over the other engraving to compare everything then in another location. No issues when using my laptop as usual.
Im pretty sure it is the same problem as the lock up but the file isnt as complex as VCarving so it limped throught the file and just caused errors and not a lock up. Weird.
It appears that when the file has alot of code or alot of quick moves such as tight engraving or where 3 axis' are having to move together that it just doesnt like it. We cut two large (36-40") shapes wit simple outside lines with no problem but if you throw something like vcarve or engraving it says NO!!
[B] Jerry just a reminder sir... the computers that dont work are 4, 4, and 6 Gig of Ram. Mine that works is 3 Gig of Ram.
Whats weird is the fact that it happens and the same location on each of the computers. They all have enough differences to them that I would think it would at the very least change the X,Y location that it locks up at by a few lines but that doesnt happen.
My computer friend came to the shop today and we tried reducing the Baud rate to see if it would make a difference since my computer is slower but it didnt do a thing. We were hoping we could make it run slower like mine but no go.
Navagator.... I did turn off all of the sleep, hibernate, etc etc functions. I set them all to never but did not have any affect. We even turned off the antivirus

It seems to me that it is something to do with SB3 and/or the shopbot controller.
I hope we figure it out soon.
Thank you again gentlmen.
Kelly

[jerry_stanek]

Try and disable the wireless and network cards it could be that the files is trying to load more code in the Ram and it is searching the network or trying to access the wireless. You say that the computers all have more ram than yours but the may not use it as efficient as your laptop.

[gerryv]

Any chance you did a firmware update n your laptop but the others didn't - or vice versa?

[adrianm]

Did you try reducing the memory in the desktop as I suggested to bring it below the 4gig level?

[ken_rychlik]

This is from a Mach forum, but I used it to help strip my pc of all the fluff.

http://machsupport.com/downloads/XP_Optimization.txt

It may help

[jerry_stanek]

Did you reload the firmware each time you changed the computer>

[laconcepts]

Ok gentlemen. I think I am over my head now.

By firmware I am assuming you are talking about the window/microsoft updates that the computer does online??

We have let all of the computers update themselves as required and hasnt affected anything.
Adrian... WE did not reduce the memory in any of the computers and to tell you the truth I would have no idea how to do that. My computer friend did reduce the baud rate but no luck there.
We are going to try and clean some of the junk off the PCs but I doubt that affects anything. I say that cause I just think it would at least stop at a different place on each of the 3 computers. It is just too darn consistent between them and they have too many differences between them as well. The desktop doesnt have much junk on it since it is a government computer. But who knows.. I am just a welder/machinist. so what do I know... LOL!!!!

Thank you and Happy New Years
Kelly

[gerryv]

Kelly, Nope, the firmware in question is actually Shopbot. I had never heard of it either until I read some good advise from Gary Campbell. I'll leave it to others more comfortable with the process to advise you (my memory is not very good) but it is a VERY simple thing to do I found out and, from what I understand, also very important.

[jbuell]

Kelly,
Have you tried running any of the PCs in Safe Mode? ( allows you to troubleshoot Windows and try to determine what is causing it to not function correctly. Once you have corrected the problem, then you can reboot and Windows will load normally)vvIf so with no results you may want to consider reinstalling the OS for a base line system that eliminates any variables. It is a very frustrating situation it you don't strip it down to eliminate unknowns that could provide a labyrinth of issues.
Jason

[mmason]

Kelly,
The USB managment may be set different on the computer that works.
Follow the link and it will show you how to disable USB power managment on
the computers.
http://www.ehow.com/how_6791680_disable-power-management-windows-xp.html
My computer was Powering down the usb after awhile and loosing connection.
This stopped it.
Hope this helps

Mike M

[jerry_stanek]

I think it is the Shopbot firmware that is causing your problem. The Shopbot control box may be thinking it is hooked up to your laptop and you only less Ram than the other computers so may be requesting more data at the same point and confusing the new computer.

To load the firmware open the Shopbot software under Utilities at the bottom is install controlbox firmware. You have to do this each time you change computers.

[laconcepts]

Thank you Jerry and Mike,
We are going to give those a try. We will start with the Firmware and then the USB.. I will post the results.

Thank you Gentlemen,
Kelly

[laconcepts]

We are in business now. What a load off our minds.
Our sincere appreciation Jerry. That was exactly what the problem was. It fit right in where we thought the problem was.... Between SB3 and the controller. We updated the firmware with the new laptop and ran the file on it, the desktop and Rons laptop and they all ran perfectly.
We are very excited.
We certainly do appreciate everyones suggestions. We difinately learned alot from you all.

Thanks again Jerry. I hope we can return the help one day in some way.

Kelly

[gerryv]

You're welcome Kelly, as I mentioned on my post on the 31st, it came to mind because the importance had been made to me previously by Gary Campbell, so he deserves the credit.

[laconcepts]

Gerald,
Yea I didnt quite understand at the time what you two were talking about when you were talking about the Firmware. I thought you and Jerry were talking about SB3 being the Firmware.. When Jerry mentioned finding it in the Utilities menu I realized what you were saying earlier wasnt SB3. WE hadnt even tried it yet and I got excited and called Ron because I knew you two were on to something. I never looked at Gary Cambells post since again I thought you two were referring to SB3 and we had updated it 3 times with no result.. duhhh. Thats alright I guess since we now know better.
After all of the trouble shooting that we had done we just knew it had to be in the communication between SB3 and the controller. There was just too much consistency between the three computers for it to be anything else. We beleived that there had to be something turned on or off in the three computers that wasnt allowing them to communicate well. I guess we were right but we just didnt know what it was. You and Jerry set us straight.
I will remember that now and hopefully we can pass it on to the next person with this problem. Its probably more lack of knowledge on our part that a problem I guess. I am most definately impressed by the amount of input that we have received on this issue and it is certainly appreciated.

Thank you all again. Now maybe we can concentrate on learning to make more kool stuff.


Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kelly

[jerry_stanek]

I'm glad to hear you are up and running. They are a thing of beauty when they work but are very evil when stuff goes wrong.

[gerryv]

Kelly, That was good for a chuckle. I guess I wasn't paying enough attention that there was two G/Jerry's. Most people spell mine with a J as well so I just responded automatically to it. Hey, Jerry - must be something good in the name eh. ;)