Mounting large SignFoam sign to exterior wall...any suggestions?

[keith]

Hi All,

I am making a one sided oval shaped sign that is approx 8 ft wide by 4 ft high. It will be mounted to the side of a building, and lit from 2 lights below the sign. The building owner wants to help with the installation because he doesn't want unnecessary holes in his newly re-sided building. I was planning on having the owner install 2 pressure treated 2x4s, horizontally, one about 3 feet higher than the other one. From these 2x4s, I was going to hang my sign. How? I'm not sure yet. :)

At first I was going to do something like a French cleat. I have no experience with that so I'm up for suggestions.

My concerns are:
- Should I have something like MDO behind the sign? The signfoam is 1.5 inches thick. I am concerned that an 8 ft span is too much for signfoam without being supported.
- What method for hanging the sign would be the easiest (we can't have any fasteners show from the front)

Thanks for your help! -Keith

[marysvillesign]

I always back my HDU with something. My preferred in .5" to .75" MDO plywood. It not only strengthens the sign structure, but gives you something to attach mounting hardware to.
Generally I'd opt for a french cleat in this case. I use a heavy duty aluminum version.

[keith]

Thanks Ron, that's good info. Just what I wanted to hear. How would you fasten the MDO to the HDU? Would you typically glue, screw, or a combination of both? And if glue is involved, what type do you use? I've used Gorilla glue before but had some issues with squeeze out. I'm not against trying it again...unless there are better alternatives. Thanks again.

[dakers]

we make sign foam cleats usually from 1.5'' 18lb foam scraps where we glue the cleat to the rear of the signfoam. We also use the aluminum cleats. We also have used aluminum angle placed top and bottom or sides on square or rectangle signs where the sign covers one leg of the angle then we use 3''screws on the exposed leg into the sign foam.
have also made plugs and used anchors that are covered by plugs or by panels that are place over the hardware.
Have also created channels between sandwiched signfoam and run aluminum rectangle tubing through channels to attache to wall either with what sticks out or directly through the aluminum and signfoam with mechanical fasteners.

Alot depends on what the wall is made of and what we can anchor to.
so far have never had a failure. do not want to use anything that could warp if possible. We have never backed sign foam with anything although some have with success.

[upsman]

I ask a similar question back in Oct. http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11890 (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11890)

We finish up the sign last month –

After a lot of research and talking with a lot of suppliers, this was the best choice for my climate.

I ended up going with PVC back and used six 10 Epoxy http://www.westsystem.com/ss/new-six10-epoxy-adhesive/ (http://www.westsystem.com/ss/new-six10-epoxy-adhesive/)

The one thing we liked best about this Epoxy was the work time was 35 to 45 minutes. We have had issue with some Epoxy and glues drying too fast when working with large signs

And used the bracket that Ron suggested

We also put bondo around the edges.

[upsman]

Here are some photos

[marysvillesign]

Keith,
Lots of good suggestions here. I use an epoxy (West, Precision, etc.). Gorilla's great for a lot of things, but for the surface areas we usually work with, it's dramatic expansion and need for air to cure is problematic. Good point on the bondo above as we do also.
One note though, I try leave the area where the cleat attaches to the sign backer without paint. That gives me raw surfaces to apply epoxy to in addition to screws.
I was able to contact the manufacturer of the cleat and they were kind enough to send a cad drawing so I could incorporate it in production drawings. (with a non disclosure agreement)
You'll develop a system that works for your customers structures, environment issues, etc. Be sure to post your successes.

Edited to add:
I haven't used screws in addition to glue on a backing board. If the glue fails, screws would be of little value. On the cleat though, the epoxy assists the
physical hold of the screws that could be damaged with vandals, structure moving, etc.

[keith]

Hello all.

Thanks for the advice. There was a little delay, but the sign is cut, being painted as we speak...er...type, and it should be installed within a few weeks. I did have one question on the French cleats. That is what I am going to use, but does anyone ever "lock them down" some how? Is there any concern for the sign coming off the cleat in a storm? How have you guys addressed this?

Again, thanks for all the help.

-Keith

[joe]

I'm firmly against using PVC, Plywood, or Dybond on the back of HDU. I've had serious failures with all these products. I have previously posted several photo's showing how awful it can be. Besides that it takes too much time and trouble.

Here's what I'd suggest. Use 1.5" angle aluminum or steel, the legnth of the sign, and attach to the wall. Then you can drill down from the top and and up through the bottom rail. I like SS screws.

This is a much faster method to attach HDU sign panels to walls and it's inexpensive too.

Joe

[keith]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the info. I think that I'll have to try that method in the future. For this sign, since it is oval I'm not sure how the brackets on top and bottom would work. Plus, the customer wants nothing to be seen from the front. No fasteners, no nothing. It does look like there are numerous fastening methods to hang a sign without showing any hardware - I'm just extra paranoid with it falling and hurting someone. Plus, I understand that SignFoam claims to have similar properties to wood when it comes to hardware like screws...but the word "foam" just makes me thing that it is not possible. I think I'll have to take a leap of faith that it will hold up. Sometimes my paranoia gets the best of me.

Thanks everyone for your help.

[joe]

I've been doing this for thirty years, long befor HDU made it to the market. I gotta tell you, mountng anything to the back of is asking for problems. I've done it an got by but it only takes once to learn a hard lesson.

Can you see any fixtures?

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[keith]

Hi Joe,

Wow - really nice! Thanks for the pictures....and no, I don't see any hardware. :-) I think that perhaps I don't understand your fastening method. Is this pic similar to how you mount them? I envision the angle bracket mounted to the wall just above and below the sign, so you can screw through the horizontal sections of the bracket into the edge of the sign. If this is correct - do you do the same thing for a curved bottom and top? Thanks again for the info. It's much appreciated!

-Keith

[joe]

KB,

You're on the right track. The attached photos shows smaller brackets. You'll have to squint to find them. I haven't had any complaints with this type fixture.

These photo are from twenty years past. Both are redwood and have repainted several times.

Screws and HDU;

I' ve learned not use screws with HDU. However with this method of attachment the screws aren't used to hold the sign up. They are fixture that keeps the sign from sliding forward.

Perhaps I should make a "How To" with respect to Epoxy inserst in HDU which allows the use of screws and studs.

I've posted earlier under the topic "Warped Sign" with a failure with DiBond and HDU. That was a major failure on a 4'X10' university sign. Keep in mind, HDU does not expand and doesn't do well in large laminatons.

Joe

Joe

[dvmike]

While I havn't been in this buisness as long as an artist such as Mr. Crumley, I have used multiple techniques, and it depends on the surface you are mounting to as much as anything.

When mounting to a wood wall,I've had really good luck with HDU in simply fastening through the face of the sign with 2-3" wood screws, and color matching the heads. But most of these signs are wood grain textured in a blasted type format ,and the screw heads almost disapear .

I have recently started milling slots in the back side. I then weld a simple "H" shaped frame together in 1/2" tube steel for ridgidity.
The wall has a simple frame that the sign frames slides into(telescopically) and the two are held together with set screws.

If you are interested I can e mail a drawing. It's much simpler than it sounds . And you can acheive a cool dimensional stand off from the wall as well ......if you and the customer choose .

[dakers]

Keith, i have alot of hdu on brick using the method you show and joe uses.
have never had a problem even with 5x10ft hdu.
some over 10 years and no issues.
used long stainless steel deck screws about every 4''

however all of these were 1'' and thicker hdu

[keith]

Thanks for your help everyone. We have run into another little snag. The building department of the town where we are hanging the sign is asking for documentation that the anchoring system we are using can withstand hurricane winds of 110 mph. I am using 2 heavy duty 3/8" french cleats but I realize there are other factors to consider such as the weight, size, and shape of the sign. Has anyone encountered a request like this before, and how did you
handle it?

Thanks!
-Keith

[dakers]

Keith we have these issues on about everything in the city. Every city has different requirements. we have a plan review to get a building permit for signs. then we have to get a zoning permit also. two permits.
for the permit for the plan review we need stamped architectural or engineer drawings. we give our drawing to the architect and he stamps it. we have been paying about
$200 for that if he does not have to do alot to our drawings. he just puts the windload on there, etc

however many of these drawings have been rejected by cities. each reviewer likes to see the drawings a certain way.

your best option is to talk to the person who reviews the drawings and ask them to recommend an architect or engineer who has no problems getting their drawing approved for signs. call them up and email your drawings to him for price.

we typically have to charge approx. $500 to $1,000 for the permits and drawings (design time not included) to hang a sign with the restrictions you mention.

your situation may be different, so you have to talk to someone who can tell you exactly what you need to present and how much it will cost.

also we have had to wait up to 6 weeks for plan review.

we typically would start the job if we had the zoning permit then by the time we had the building permit the install would be ready to go.

this type of situation is something we have to look at as a product.
the problem we have is that when we explain it up front many people think we are the enemy but i guess you have to tactfully explain all the details without losing the sale. not easy when you do not agree with all the hoops.
especially when they seem to be just hoops and do nothing for public safety.
here you can have a large plastic face electric sign and the faces will blow out during high winds but the drawings just state that the structure is safe. so you get the permit and if the faces blow out during a storm and hurt someone then all the hoops have done nothing for safety.
it is a way for them to make money under the blanket of public safety.

also here some signs are considered fences. i can go on and on but it just frustrates me. every city, township, has different zoning laws for signs and many are not thought out.

[dakers]

keith, do not be too settled on the french cleat install at this point.
that may be very difficult to prove hurricane strength like you could using
mechanical anchors that have known failure rates, shear rates, etc.