Is E Cabs and the ShopBot Link worth it?

[r_jones]

Is E Cabs and the ShopBot Link worth the time and money? I know pending on what you do maybe, maybe not.

So what I am looking to do is develop a couple basic framed and framless cabinets and sell that cutting to the general public. At some point maybe I start cutting for some local shops. My plan is to make my CNC services 80%-90% of my business. In the past I have drafted and cut cabinets using ACAD with ok results. Having used ACAD for years I am very proficent with it's use.

Based on the posts I have read the system, wheather it be the link or the software, seems to be very buggy:( I have had enough headaches and still do with the shopbot and I just don't know if I can afford anymore brain damage and frustration. I actually purchased the link about 6 months ago and after it took about 5-6 hours to try and get a file written I pretty much gave up and decided I would try it another day. Well another day is here, I probably have a couple months to either increase the CNC business or go back and sit behind the desk so hopefully cutting some cabinets is a way to stay out from behind the desk.

My current set up is as follows:
48x96 PRS Alpha, 2.2 HSD Spindle, vacuum table, no tool changer

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Ron

[gene]

I would look at cabinets parts pro FIRST . Its not all the glits and glamor of e cabinets but it works very good for me. :)

[r_jones]

Thanks Gene I will have to check that out!

[ken_rychlik]

If you already have the 'bot and the link, why not use it?

Did the 5 or 6 hours you spent trying to make a file involve ecabinet time, or issues cutting with the link?

They are seperate issues to get around.

I have run both programs and the main diference between the two is visual. In ecabs you can see what you are designing and how the parts fit together. With CPP you have to know what you are designing, but you really can't see it.

If all you want are basic boxes, CPP will do fine for that. It is a nice and simple to use program.

If you want to build an island, fridge surround, or cabinet with an extra divider here and there, CPP falls short.

Both have a learning curve. CPP is a shorter learning curve, but I feel like I am working blindfolded when designing a cabinet with it. Ecabs will show you ever detail and let you control every detail of a cabinet, but with a steeper learning curve.

[Gary Campbell]

Ron...
There are both good and bad for any software package that you use for cabinet design and cutting. Here are some random thoughts, that you can go thru, maybe to bring up a question for clarification.

Familiarity with one program, leads to frustration with others that are not similar in menu or keyboard shortcuts. Even tho I could really use it some days, I would not consider a CAD program, especially ACad, because of the learning curve. That said, I also know it IS the best out there.

You need to decide if you are going to design pieces or cabinets. You have the ability to do you design work with ACad and export into either CPPro or eCabs. Very innefficient in eCabs and although better with CPPro's Nester, still no where near as efficient as design in either.

CPPro may not have full support of face frame cabinets. That said, if you build casework in the types it does support, CPPro is the best solution under $5K.

Most using the eCabs/SB Link combo, therefore having suffered thru the fairly long learning curve for both, will tell you there is nothing better under $20K. You can purchase video training for both to shorten the learning curve.

Both CPPro and eCabs/SB Link have the ability to design/modify casework, based on preset joinery parameters, in seconds and be cutting in under a minute. Both allow joinery and dado widths to be adjusted with a couple clicks.

Long and short of it is, that you have choices. Just like your proficiency with ACad, it will not come overnight. The greater the number of options or benefits to us as cabinetmakers, the longer the learning curve. There are dozens of us out there that are doing it on a daily basis. Bite the bullit, pick one, learn it.

As far as the bugs, there are a few. All known have decent workarounds. None are stopping production in any of our shops. Most are repaired fairly shortly after they are reported and confirmed.

[dlcw]

Ron,

There is no doubt that eCabs has a long and steep learning curve. If you are using it just to design a library of framed and frameless cabinets, the learning curve is shorter and less steep. The biggest headaches with eCabs is when you start getting into the glitz and glitter of creating designs for a customer to be able to "see" their project before you start cutting anything. It is a great presentation/sales tool.

I have no experience with CPP so can't comment.

SBLink is a pretty good piece of software once you go up the learning ramp. Gary Campbell has put together a training series on the Link that should get you up and running a lot quicker then those of us who learned by trial and terror :eek: The Link does a good job. The only place I've seen problems/glitches is when you get into doing complicated Part Editor cuts. I've not gone to far down this road because of comments I've read on different forums. I tend to stay with fairly simple designs.

My learning curve was fraught with broken bits, wasted material and a lot more gray hair. With Gary's training series, he has taken this part out of the equation and can get you up and running pretty quick. No, I don't own the series but I know Gary pretty well. He helped me more then I can ever thank him over the last couple of years. I can assure you that knowing him like I do and his incredible wealth of knowledge, his training series is worth MUCH more then every penny it costs.

If you are seriously considering turning your CNC into a big money maker, Aspire, eCabs and SBLink can go a long way to help you with this. Just be patient and ask questions here when you hit a bump in the road so you don't waste a lot of material and break a lot of bits. But you will have to do some experimenting and learning on your own for some of the lessons to really hit home.

A lot of folks like Nat, Kenneth, Gary and others, on this forum, have gone through this process and have come out better then when we started. You just have to be patient and persevere.

[r_jones]

Thanks for all your responses. I appreaciate very much your honest thoughts as I hate sugar coated, life is rosie feedback:)
For the most part I have no intention of creating renderings to help sell a project. The option is a nice one though. Just nuts and bolts case work, basic upper and lowers with an occasional entertainment center type of project thrown in... I guess my real concern is the learning curve. It looks easy enough and then it takes me 5-6 hours just to get a file written to the bot, with errors that I need to work though and I haven't even turned the machine on:(
How long might one it take someone to cut an upper box, from the library? 10-20 hours?? Maybe I just need a bottle of Jim Beam and a box of 1/4" MC bits to use as stirrers??? I am not sure I saw the training series Gary put together but I will look for it for sure!

[ken_rychlik]

You still didn't tell us where you are getting hung up.

Open batch cabinets.

then select a cabinet to put in there from the std library

then click cnc and name the file.

Then your are ready to take that file to the bot.

Can you get that far?

[Gary Campbell]

Ron...
Not sure that I understand your question, but if was intended the way I read it, then the answer is, and this assumes seed cabinets to your liking, under 1 minute to design and export and under 10 minutes to cut. You can cut that (cutting) time in half if using butt joints and few shelf or hardware holes.

None of us can predict or quantify the learning curve for another user. I can tell you that if self taught like I was in the beginning, plan on a few hundred hours for average proffiency. If using the eCabs training videos, and select them to be pertinent to your task at hand, you can pare that time down to around a hundred hours or so. Most users are confident after 6 months or so of use.

I personally, and my opinion differs from that of those that sell the product, dont feel that a person new to ShopBot and CNC should attempt learning eCabs and the SB Link during the information overload that occurs during their first few months of ownership.

It should take around 5-6 hrs to go thru the segments on my training video, and this will get the Link settings correct for your machine. It does little to ensure that the cabinets you have designed are machinable.

[r_jones]

Ken,
I am not hung up anymore. After a couple calls to Thermwood we got it worked out. It was so long ago I forget exactly what was the problem.
Gary,
Thanks for the input on the learning curve. It gives me an idea what to expect. I will certainly take a look at your videos, thank you!

[kevin]

This is a good topic. I was deciding a year and a half ago, to take the shop link. I did not have the money at the time which was $1,500. I spent $290. on cabinets pro and I don't think the shop bot link would give me an advantage. What I'm saying is that I think once you get comfortable with a program it gets scary to change. I know that Gary has written an incredible guide but I'd be curious to know if Shop Bot link superior to Cabinets Pro because I average between 15 to 25 sheets per kitchen between 12 and 22 drawers included and I do about roughly 1 high-end kitchen every 3 weeks. I do get frustrated though. Every time you turn around you are learning something different with the Shop Bot. I am pulling my eyebrows out learning the indexing head. I think this is a good topic especially when trying to figure out the maze of software.

[gene]

I use extreme software to do my drawings . It gives me the box sizes i need so that all i do then is plug the sizes into CCP and nest and cut .This works for me. One thing that seems to be said in this thread is that you must FOCUS , either on e cabinets and the link or CCP or whatever else you are using. If you switch between programs you most likely will get confused and fustrated ( I know i do) Every program will have its strong points and weaknesses . Use what works the best for your application and Happy Botting

[ken_rychlik]

The most interesting part of the question for me is Ron's desire to offer cnc cut cabinet parts to the general public.

I don't think I could pull that off. The general public wants their project built, installed, and ready to use.

Cutting for cabinet shops is a good option if you can find some small shops to work for.

If you have questions about designing cabinets the thermwood forum is great.

For taking twd files and cutting them on the 'bot, this is the best place to ask.

If you want to try CPP there is a demo trial you can get.

[loriny]

Just my 2 cents worth. I have both CPPro and SB link. I think I should get cppro back up again at my bot laptop. This way for one ofs I could cut right then and there. That said, if I had the ability to have Ecabs right in the shop thats all I would use.
To me the beauty of Ecabs is the ability to draw, present and modify a job and then just directly output to the CNC.
Yes I have had some greif with it but I am not very good with computers either. The link and Aspire are the 2 best helps to me with the Bot.
Lorin

[chunkstyle]

Hi Kevin,
I used to have all my cabinet cutting done by another shop that has a Thermwood. When they ported the code out to SB I came up with the scratch to buy a SB.

Guess I kinda did it the other way around from you. Using just the software for a number of years and assembling/installing cabinets allowed me to focus on the E-cab software only. E-cabs is great for 'sculpting' a cabinet to a unique shape or configuration.

The draw back is that the complexity of the program required to design complex cabinetry requires complex software. I would take advantage of any learning tools out there to shorten the learning curve.
The program has some warts (what doesn't) and hidden landmines that you will find after diving in to a pile of freshly cut parts. It will be another learning curve to know where or how to avoid them. I still sometimes step on a landmine I forgot about. Read lost time.

Lastly, for me anyways, I had to find what parts of the program were profitable and which I couldn't make money on. Others may have a different experience but I found it necessary to augment E-cabs with other programs to be able to recoup the time spent in the cost of the product.

I don't think I could do what I do without E-cabs. If your product is simple and streamlined then E-cabs may not be necessary.
For me, I couldn't run without it.

Tim

[kevin]

Tim, thanks for the heads up. I do like e-cabinet. It looks pretty impressive. I use kitchen draw but it can't do the woodwork I do. But a lot of times, I explain to the client, show the samples and pictures and tell them it is one of a kind. I know eventually I will have to go with the leap to e-cabinet if I want the shop to grow. This was a good topic.