Finishing Advice Needed

[ron_churches]

I'm hoping somebody here can help save me from myself. I was asked to replicate a tv console for a customers existing entertainment center. I was able to get the profiles for the moldings and doors pretty close and was pretty happy with the build. The problem I'm having is with the finish and at this point am panicking because I can't afford to start over. All off the components are either maple plywood or maple solids.

I took a door from the customers cabinet to Sherwin Williams to get advice on which products and procedures to use. The guy there recommended their "Fruitwood" Wood Classics Oil Stain with a satin poly clear coat. Either I misunderstood the process or was given bad information. I sprayed the first coat of stain (no sealer or other preparation) and wiped off the excess and ended up with a decent looking base. A little blotchy but the customers cabinet is "distressed" looking. The color tone was too light, so I sprayed a light second coat but DID NOT wipe the excess off as I should have, hoping to build color and depth. Now, the stain is only marginally darker and has a glossy sheen to it that doesn't look that great. I should stopped there, but did I? Of course I didn't. I tried fixing that by lightly sanding to knock down the shine thinking that another coat would be able to penetrate the wood and darken it more. I wiped off this coat but still have an unattractive shine and stain that is a bit cloudy in spots, and still not the correct color. Can somebody please give me an idea of how to correct this?

I've since learned of shading lacquers and am thinking I can forget the satin poly and use this kind of product to darken the color as needed

Thanks,
Ron

[beacon14]

I'm sorry to hear of your problems; I have been there before, more than once I'm sorry to say. I can't give you much specific advice without seeing what you are seeing, but I can suggest that in the future, when trying a technique for the first time, always try it on a few scraps or samples, and not just the first coat, but do the ENTIRE process from start to finish until you are comfortable with the results. Only then should any finish make it onto the actual workpiece. It seems like a pain to go through the entire process (especially when time is short near the end of project) but it's much worse to have to strip the entire project and start over.

At this point I would take a small part like a shelf or an interior part that will be mostly concealed, and try a few options to see if you can salvage the finish. If you get it right, you can then do the same steps to the rest of the piece. If not you may be able to wash off most of the stain with solvent, sand lightly, and start over.

Good luck.

[ken_rychlik]

Ron,

First off you can NOT spray any kind of lacquer over polyurethane.

Did you put any poly on yet?

Paint thinner on a rag will remove the excess stain as long as you have not put a top coat on. That may get you back to where you started.

I have never tried to add stain to a poly for a tone coat, but I bet it would work. The first and most important thing you should do is make a sample board out of some leftover scraps.

I tone and shade with lacquers all the time.

This is probably not recommended by the mfg, but if you mix about 20
percent oil based stain with 80% lacquer thinner, you can spray colors pretty easy.

You have to be very consistant with your coverage and apply several light coats from different directions to blend it. You can get paint gun streaks real easy if you don't have good equipment and a steady hand. Inside corners don't come out well with high pressure. Keep it as low as you can.

[ron_churches]

Kenneth,

Thankfully, I haven't even opened the poly yet. No topcoat so far. I will try the paint thinner to remove the excess stain and see what happens. I do have a small piece of maple that I have duplicated my mistakes on, so I can test that first. Seeing as I haven't used the poly yet, do you think I should go with tinted lacquer instead? I have a cheap Wagner HVLP gun that I'm not great at using but could practice with it before shooting the cabinet. BTW, I forgot to mention that the maple ply pieces look pretty good and are close to the right color, its just the maple solids that are in question. Should I re-sand them after the paint thinner? If so, is there anything else I should do to get the maple to accept stain better?


Thank God for this forum, I can't imagine what I would do without it!

Ron

[wberminio]

Ron

Good advice.
I'd like to add... After you clean with mineral spirits
if the stain is the right tone-I believe you said it is-

take a clean bristle brush and slowly brush the stain on the piece.
Not too much-let dry -may take a day or two-
repeat with brush until you build up the right finish/color
don't worry about the gloss from the stain.
after it is thoroughly dry-a day or two
you can take 0000 steel wool and lightly sand the finish
now you can top coat
Don't feel you need to use the One color stain.Sometimes the next color darker or lighter will help to get the right tone.

this will take a while -but will give control over the finish.

Next time you might want to seal the ply with mixture of shellac thinned with alcohol about 20/80. This will slightly seal the wood and give a more even finish.
I found that this works very well on cherry, Cherry can be very blotchy when stained

[ken_rychlik]

Based on your description of your spray gun, I would not suggest you spray the stain or toner.

If the hardwood is all that needs more, I would suggest you get it back to where the plywood looks good and the hardwood was to light. Then seal with one coat of poly. Then mix stain and poly and apply only to the hardwood in nice even coats until you get it right. Do a 20% stain in the mix. Check for compatability of the stan and poly so they don't seperate first.

Then scuff sand and put a final coat on everything.

Naturally do a sample first.

Most oil based stains will obscure the grain if they are put on to heavy. You can't spray them on the way you normally do with a transparent toner so take it easy. Less color per coat and build it up to where you want it is best.

I normally use all lacquer based dye products instead of oil. They are more forgiving and easier to tone the top coats. I am trying suggestions for you to get by with what you have on hand.

[gene]

Patients , patients, and patients To me building is the easy part . Matching color is a pita.

[wberminio]

Your right Gene

Whenever a customer wants to "match"the finish.
1st thing I tell them and Write down in the proposal is -I can get it close-but not exact.
Their expectations become a bit lower and are usually very happy with the results.
It's not an exact science we're dealing with a natural material.
You become more of an artist -if you want to or not
As others have mentioned-make samples and write down what you used and your method- on the back