Fast setting Glues

[rslaback]

I need some advice on what you guys would use for glues on glued up hardwood panels. I have been using titebond II but I would prefer to find something with a cure time of less than 24 hours. Suggestions?

[dlcw]

Ryan,

Titebond II should be ready for you to work in about 2 to 3 hours. When I glue up stuff with Titebond, I'm machining, milling, sanding, etc. in under 3 hours. When I assemble plywood cabinets (mortise and tenon joinery - no screws) with Titebond and clamps, they are out of the clamps and ready in about 3 hours. Never had a problem.

[ken_rychlik]

I have done the same as Don with TBII, but most dedicated door shops around here use RF glue.

They put an addative in the tb2 and while it is in the clamp, they nuke it in the rf machine.

It ain't cheap, but it's instant.

[pappybaynes]

Ditto to the above comments...2-3 hours

[michael_schwartz]

When working with bent lamination's using TB II I allow the glue to cure overnight before removing clamps. Due to the stress on the glue joint, I have had failures occur machining parts too early.

When dealing with normal day to day glue ups I allow tightbond II and III to cure for about 6 hours to be on the safe side. As others have mentioned 2-3 hours is usually fine. I have machined stuff after an hour before without any problems.

If you want to be sure, take a cutoff from your panel and try to bust it apart at the glue line. If the wood fails rather than the glue line the glue is probably strong enough.

[michael_schwartz]

The alternatives to yellow glue are often not so desirable.

I like to use urea formaldehyde or plastic resin glues for veneer and bent laminations but those are quite nasty. Epoxy may have long term health risks, however that is debatable.

Polyurethane glues are quite messy, and not as strong as the manufacturers would like you to think.

Industrial two part adhesives are often only available in large quantities (5 gallons) and do not have a long shelf life.

Yellow glue is easy to get, store, clean up, and use. As long as its appropriate for the task at hand it is a good choice.

[cnc_works]

I also expect to be able to work Titebond glued panels and joints in 2 to 3 hours. However, one issue that can occur with some woods and in some humidities is that if you surface early the joint can continue to cure so that the moisture leaving the joint can create a small dip along the glue line.

[dlcw]

I have been using plastic resin glue (DAP Wood Weld) for 10 years for bent form lamination and freeform furniture parts using veneers and bendy plywood. The thing I like most about this glue is the little or no spring back compared to yellow glues. The bond is also MUCH stronger. Another big plus is the open working time - about 40 minutes. When I have complex glue ups I will use plastic resin glue. The only down side is the two-part mixing operation. You need to get all the lumps out and that can be a pain.

[bleeth]

You can put me down firmly on the side of plastic resin glue for bent laminations as. The downside is as mentioned before: getting the lumps out and also being very careful not to breath the powder. It contains cyanide. To me the only alternative for that is epoxy with a little wood flour mixed in (I'm a West system fan although there is nothing wrong with System 3 or MAS). I have done many with both of the above and have a zero failure rate. TB is fine for board to board edgegluing and will even work with oily woods like Teak if you wipe the glue surface with acetone before gluing. But to be specific to the question you can use epoxy for hardwood edge bonding and if you want it to cure faster put it under a couple of lightbulbs or in the sun (heat). For veneering I have recently started using a Wilsonart Adhesives product that has enough set time for multiple parts in the vacuum bag and is ready to release in a few hours max. It also qualifies for no-emissions on LEED jobs. Their adhesive product number 3000. Brush or roll right out of the can. It's a PVA and cleans up when wet with water. The poly-urethanes like Gorilla Glue are too expensive and too messy as they expand for me unless I have a specific job that really requires it. The best answer for edge-gluing hardwoods is to plan your timing. Glue it in the afternoon before you go home-clean it up in the morning or glue it first thing in the morning and clean it up in the afternoon.

[gc3]

http://www.woodweb.com/KnowledgeBase/KBAdhesives.html

http://www.woodweb.com/KnowledgeBase/KBAdhesivesGluingClampingEquip.html

here are a couple links with good info

[waynelocke]

I use a catalyst and resin glue from Custom Pak adhesive (since merged and I can't remember the new name). You can use a slow (5-6 Hour pressure time) or a fast (1.5 to 3 Hour pressure time) catalyst. Downside is you have to buy 5 gallons and it has about a 4 month shelf life. Upside is great bond and easy mix with no lumps. I use a $10 hand mixer I've used for 25 years.

[rslaback]

I probably should have given a bit more info to the situation. I teach high school students. When I make up the individual pieces for panels and they are actually straight and square I am usually planing the panels within 2 hours. The issue is that the students don't always use quite as much care nor have as much experience in making each of the pieces fit well in a dry fit. This means that when they glue their panels they sometimes have to clamp the living snot out of them. The joints end up in a pressure fit like a bent lamination.
One of my classes each year has a workday where the students come in and work all day just like they would if they were employees in a manufacturing business. The issue we had this year was that because of the joints being under pressure the glue joints were popping even after 3 hours in the clamps.

[hh_woodworking]

Ron,
From another teacher if you cant get them to slow now and get a better dry fit then I make them put biscuits in the panel in places that won't be cut. not the best solution but does help. It moves some of the stress to different surface to help hold it. In my experience if the panel pop loose after 3 hour clamp time then it will fail later in the project maybe as long as 6 months to a year later. I understand what you are dealing with (just get it done don,t care that much if it is done the right way) I have had a 6" wide board jointed down to a 2" wide board to get it straight:( I have gotten to the point that I must check the dry fit before they can glue it up. Extra time for me but saves so much more headaches later and wasted wood. I'm also ways fighting the "it's good enough attitude" all the time

[ken_rychlik]

If you are using a jointer for prepping the edge, try something different.

I do al my jointing on a talble saw. It is faster and it fits better.

Cut pieces a little over sized and get them in the orientaion that you want for grain and look. Then just skim 1/8 inch off of one side. and keep flipping it and repeating unil it fits nice on the fence, and you know it has two parallel edges. When you flip them, DO NOT flip them end to end. Basically just rotate the top side down and keep the stock the way it is on the table.

Then as long as you keep the boards with the same end facing you, even if the saw is not cutting them perfectly square, they still fit, because any error is equal and opposite on the mating board.

It does require a good quality blade in the saw.

After doing this for several years, I sold the jointer in my shop.

[dlcw]

If I have a long board that has to be jointed way down to get a straight edge, I use that board for shorter pieces and cut it up. This wastes a lot less wood. After rough cutting to length on the RAS it is just a few passes on the jointer to get my reference edge.

I always flatten (jointer, planer, wide belt sander) the board faces prior to selecting the reference edge. This enables me to me more selective of which edge of the board will be the reference edge when it comes to time to cutting to final width.

[michael_schwartz]

Make sure the students aren't messing with the height of the out feed table by mistake. If its a delta take the lever off, and lock it up:D

[gc3]

I probably should have given a bit more info to the situation. I teach high school students. When I make up the individual pieces for panels and they are actually straight and square I am usually planing the panels within 2 hours. The issue is that the students don't always use quite as much care nor have as much experience in making each of the pieces fit well in a dry fit. This means that when they glue their panels they sometimes have to clamp the living snot out of them. The joints end up in a pressure fit like a bent lamination.
One of my classes each year has a workday where the students come in and work all day just like they would if they were employees in a manufacturing business. The issue we had this year was that because of the joints being under pressure the glue joints were popping even after 3 hours in the clamps.

In the real time manufacturing business...."your" employees would be looking for aother job.

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Order_of_Operations_in.html

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Glue_Joint_Failure.html although a older written article still good general info

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Tuning_Up_an_OutofWhack_Jointer_Bed.html another...

[burchbot]

Hi
The problem isn’t the glue. You can pull anything together if you apply enough pressure, but by doing so you squeeze out all the glue. Starving the joint of the very thing you need to hold it together. Plus the panel is pre loaded with stress. If a student can’t prep and glue a panel, there is no need to teach him anything more. Learn the basics first.
Dan

[bleeth]

Ryan:

Make them do it right or let them suffer the grade loss! Someone has to combat the rampant ADDS that seems to be the norm now!!

[michael_schwartz]

Ryan:

Make them do it right or let them suffer the grade loss! Someone has to combat the rampant ADDS that seems to be the norm now!!

Or make them do it right with hand tools if they can't respect the machinery by using proper techniques :cool:

[bleeth]

There's a real memory Michael:
Joining a big damned 8/4 plank of hardwood with an 18" plane!
Those were the days: Aching elbows, piles of little curly chips, wood plank floors to work on and material that doesn't smell like mdf, particle board, or cheap plywood.
Now I don't even own a decent plane and even my chisels are badly neglected although I do think about putting together one of Steve Knight's kits.

[michael_schwartz]

There's a real memory Michael:
Joining a big damned 8/4 plank of hardwood with an 18" plane!
Those were the days: Aching elbows, piles of little curly chips, wood plank floors to work on and material that doesn't smell like mdf, particle board, or cheap plywood.
Now I don't even own a decent plane and even my chisels are badly neglected although I do think about putting together one of Steve Knight's kits.

Nothing like spending half a day planing a piece of wood by hand. Definitely makes you appreciate being able to do it in seconds with a machine.

Krenov style planes are not hard to make. I have one I made a few years ago, and I use it to joint edges of veneer. Wooden planes are quite fun to use, and provide feedback that gets absorbed by a cast iron plane. Sooner or later I am going to make a few more.