Trying to decide between CNC routers

[Xray]

Hello folks, have resolved to get an entry level CNC machine, and have narrowed my choices to Shopbot desktop & Shark+ Pro.
I realize that most product specific forums are not very fond about touting the competition, so forgive me if this is out of line ,,, But on the other hand, a well crafted product stands on its own, and comparisons of similar items can be expected.
Saw the article in American Woodworkers btw, fairly poorly done article which didn't help me a bit.

The Shark can be had for just under $4,000, delivered.
$3,800 base price, $120 router, $65 shipping.
The Desktop is $1,500 more. $5,000 base price, $290 router, and $200 shipping.
Quite a difference for similar machines, and I was wondering what advantages could I expect for the price ?

$290 seems a bit extreme for a router, anyone know the model number used here, perhaps I could shave off a bit of $$ buying locally.
Its advertised as a 2 1/4hp PC router ,,, Theres a Porter-Cable 892 2-1/4-Horsepower Router on Amazon for $160 shipped, if the same that would save me $130 right there.
$200 shipping vs $65 is also a factor, though no doubt the desktop is a bit heavier. Seems to me though, I see "markup" written all over these 2.

The Shark actually has a larger cutting area, and perhaps a better software package.
I am attracted though to the superior rigidness of the desktop.
Was considering a spindle, but the extra $1,500 I think will kill that option.
Like the router, would it be an option for me to get my own spindle, and perhaps save a bundle here ?
Don't want to be a miser, and I realize nothing about CNC is going to be cheap, but I need the most bang for the $$. Don't mind paying extra for superior performance, at the same time don't want to feel like I'm being gouged for such things as shipping or markups on tools either.

Any other pros/cons of either unit would be appreciated.
Use would primarily be hobby, and light production.

[bleeth]

If you happen to be in the South Florida area you can see a desktop at the camp on Friday or Saturday this week. All in all the desktop is a much more robust piece of equipment and will take heavier use. The PC router price includes the z setup for it and is heavier than the Bosch the Shark will take. Here are comments from someone on another forum regarding comparisons:

Re: shark versus shopbot (http://www.cncsharktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=78&start=10#p1813)

http://www.cncsharktalk.com/styles/prosilver/imageset/icon_post_target.gif (http://www.cncsharktalk.com/viewtopic.php?p=1813#p1813)by tswoodshop (http://www.cncsharktalk.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1087) » Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:08 pm
I’ve looked into the differences between the Shopbot tabletop model they just came out with, and the Shark Pro. I think spinningwood’s post above is pretty much right on the money. Whether that extra $1200 you pay for the Shopbot over the Shark Pro is worth it or not depends on what you want to do with the machine. Like a lot of “toys” in my shop, that is usually the deciding factor. Example, I upgraded to a large standard 15 inch planer because the amount of wood I run through it would have burned up the Delta 12 inch benchtop I was using to that point. Likewise, after reading up on things, I came to the conclusion that the Shopbot desktop was designed to be used in more of an industrial/ working shop setting than a hobby type shop where somebody will use it on weekends once in a while. The Shopbot components were designed to be used in a more aggressive work environment. The Shopbot is also faster, although that might not matter to the hobbyist. The Shopbot takes a bigger Porter Cable router, which again makes faster smoother cutting, and which again might not matter to the hobbyist that has all day. They both have the same Vcarve software, but from listening to owners of both, apparently the Shopbot system software integrates with the Vcarve software much better than the Shark software does, the Shopbot software is more seamless. The one place Shopbot truly shines, and is the envy of just about anybody else in the CNC world, is support. Among other things, they have an active forum where you can find info to questions so you don’t have to reinvent the wheel. Of course this forum, although only a fraction the size of Shopbot’s, is also is a great place to get info if you run into a problem. The bottom line is will you want to be making widgits on your CNC to sell at shows? Making custom signs every week on a regular basis as part of a small business? Is speed and a little more power something that would bring you down if your CNC didn’t have it? Get the Shopbot desktop and don’t look back. Do you have a day job and mainly putz around in your shop on weekends making one of a kind projects? Would the slower speed of the Shark not bother you since you have all day to “play” in your shop and time was not necessarily money as it would be in a working shop? Save yourself $1200 and get the Shark.


I can only add that it has been my experience that when buying tools if I buy the lightest entry level there is then I usually end up regretting it!

[Xray]

Thanks for the info, am in MI, quite a long, cold ways from FLA.

I agree that the Shark being apparently tied to a fairly weak palm router is a detraction ... And also that when making a purchase, one should get something they can grow into, rather than grow right out of.
I was considering the Buddy system for $2,000 more, but I have to assign myself some limits, of there will be no end.
I don't have a very large area to devote to the system, and with 5 kids nickel & diming me half to death, every $$ counts.

[kartracer63]

Hi Doug,

I went through the same thing you're going through a little over a year ago. Let me start by saying I ended up buying the Shopbot BT48 Buddy.
I, also, started out looking at the Shark Pro. I saw it on Rockler's website and then went to see it personally at one of their stores. It's a nice little machine for a small hobbiest. I thought about it for several weeks and finally asked the store manager for a demonstration before I spend that kind of money. Not a single person in the store could operate the machine.
Now, it's not like I can go down to the store and see a Shopbot demo either though. But, it really made me wonder what kind of support I might be able to expect when I ran into problems (and you WILL run into problems).

So, I expanded my horizons and started looking at other CNCs available. I came across the Shopbot site and read up on their machines for almost an entire day before I even made my way to the forum. I'm not a machinest and I was adequately confused by all of the information I had just inhaled. Somehow, it all started to make some sence once I started spending a little bit of time lurking on the Shopbot forum. A lot of the questions I had were easily answered right here. I had to do some searching for some of the answers. But, they were here for me.

I was even lucky enough to have a Shopbot Camp scheduled about a hour from my house during my quest. Bill (Doc) Palumbo encouraged me to attend the camp. I got to see the Shopbot actually run some parts and I learned more than I was ready to learn about all kinds of topics related to the Shopbot and the software.

I left the camp almost certain that I'd end up with a Shopbot. But, I continued to do my due diligence and shopped around for several more weeks after that yet. I had called Shopbot and asked so many stupid questions. I'm sure they don't remember, but I sure do. The staff at Shopbot was great. But, the guys here on this forum were without a doubt the determining factor when I finally made up my mind and ordered the Shopbot. There are so many talented folks here, and they're almost all willing to share their knowledge to help you out whenever the time may come (and it WILL come). I know that the Shark guys have a forum. It's no comparison to this forum and these guys.

The software comparison doesn't exist. V-Carve Pro and Partworks are the same thing. Partworks was made for Shopbot to speak the Shopbot language. Same-O Same-O.

Spend a few extra bucks and get the machine and the support group you're going to need. You won't be sorry.

[gc3]

http://www.stingercnc.com/

Have you seen these?

[hh_woodworking]

Just my 2 cents worth, but if you could at all swing the buddy that would be the way to go. The bigger size will come in very handy at time and you will not believe what you could make to recover the cost of the machine. Some shopbotter have recovered their investment in as little as 6 months on a full size standard unit.

[Xray]

I have indeed seen the Stingers, look like fine units ,,, But I put them out of contention for no other reason than not to further complicate the decision making process.
Also, don't really want to have to set up a dedicated computer for control, which would, obviously, further add to the cost.

I guess I should still consider the Buddy, I do have the funds for it.
Shipping cost doesn't appear on the site, I'm almost afraid to ask what that would be for a 600 lb unit.

[ken_rychlik]

Doug.

Look at resale value. See what you can find on the used market for sale and how well it holds it's value.

I would also suggest you consider buying a used machine as a first machine. It is very likely that either you won't like it and sell off the little machine, or you will really like it an upgrade to a larger machine. In either situation and buying either machine, you will get most of your money back when you are ready to upgrade or bail out.

Look on the Vectric.com site also. There is a very good v-carve pro forum. There are fans of both machines there and they can both tell you the good and bad. That IMO would be the best place to get unbiased opinions.

The other thing is that the desktop shopbot is so new, there won't be that many used ones and also not many long term user reviews.

Good luck whatever you decide.

[hh_woodworking]

You said you would like not to have a dedicated computer for the machine. I would suggest that you reconsider that option. It does not have to be the newest or best computer it will run fine on an older model cpu. Keep your good design computer away from the shop and all the dust!

[Xray]

You said you would like not to have a dedicated computer for the machine. I would suggest that you reconsider that option. It does not have to be the newest or best computer it will run fine on an older model cpu. Keep your good design computer away from the shop and all the dust!

True.
I had planned on doing design on the computer in my room [CNC will be outside in my garage] ,,, And running the code from an older laptop.
So I'm trying to work with what I already have, though true, maybe I will have to get a dedicated machine at some point in time.

[michael_schwartz]

A few considerations.

I would stay away from using a Bosch colt as a spindle. At a minimum I would go with a 2-1/4 hp PC router. .

Maintaining a consistent spindle(router) RPM, is critical, as the relationship between the RPM of the cutter, and feed rate is a key factor for determining cut quality, bit life, accuracy, etc... Having more power allows you to set the router at a slower RPM, but maintain a more appropriate speed range while cutting more aggressively.

I am assuming the 2-1/4 PC router will take a 3/8" or 1/2" collet as well. I have a full sized shopbot, but even when I am cutting small projects that would fit on the desktop, I often use tooling with a 1/2" shank.

[Xray]

Prime point, Michael.
The Shark tied to a weak router is rapidly turning into a deal killer with me.
There is really no way around it with the design of the machine ,, If you tried to improvise a solution for more hp, the frame itself likely would not take much more torque without skewing the whole works.
I plan on doing at least some semi serious cutting, and the weak router I can see in advance as a frustrating obstacle.

So I'm talked out of the Shark, though of course, it might be the better option for some.
Now its between the Buddy or Desktop, and I might take another look at the Stingers as well.

[jerry_stanek]

I looked at the Shark and the gantry seems weak it had a lot of flex. The design software is the same for both the Shark and Shopbot desktop. Both are Vcarve Pro.

[widgetworks_unlimited]

Don't let the small ($1500) price difference fool you into thinking these machines are in the same category. Those of us who know enough to build our own machines from scratch could write you a book on the night and day differences when it comes to quality of construction, materials, and machine capability.

Most buyers don't begin to learn/understand all of these factors until they've owned a machine for many months. It may sound funny, but I would reverse your math - I think the ShopBot price is a great deal for what you receive and the Shark may be overpriced.

I will add one more comment to what others have advised already. I'm in a unique position in this discussion because I often get calls from customers who own Sharks as well as ShopBot owners. The Bosh Colt routers can only accept 1/4" bits. This limits the types and sizes of cutters and accessories you can use with the machine. It effects cut speed and cut quality/finishing time.

Enjoy your new toy - which ever you end up with. It's really not about the machine, it's what you can do with it that counts.

[gc3]

Good point Kenneth...ck vectric forum for all of the Shark owners that have problems...

If you have the space I would wait for a older 4x8 pr or prt machine for close to the same cost as what you are looking at...

But hey I am just a Guy in the Desert working in a off the grid shop...in Mexico :eek:

[Xray]

Space wise, I think the Buddy is as large as I could handle.

[michael_schwartz]

I would look at either the SB desktop, buddy, or the stinger. Anything less, I would build my own machine from scratch, or go with a kit such as Joes CNC.

[gene]

if it were me i would get an older computer to run the cnc . Design your files on the computer in the house and use a usb stick to transfer the cut files.
also you can cut small parts on a bigger machine but it gets tough to cut bigger parts on a smaller machine. If i may ask what are you planning to be cutting? or using the cnc for?

[Xray]

Yeah, I've heard that some folks are running into problems with the newer 64 bit systems.

Not sure what exactly I will be making. I am a creator, and I feel that the only limit will be myself. I'm a journeyman union carpenter of 10 years +, I have been working with wood, power tools, scroll sawing ect, most of my life, and am fairly computer literate ,,, So I feel that I have a good leg up on getting started.
I recently did these wood creations by hand, as a memorial to a little girl that died.
I figure if I can dream up and create something like that by hand, can't wait to see what I'll come up with CNC.
http://www.scrollsawvillage.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3817&mode=view

Would like to go in some mode of light production, wouldn't mind cutting some custom aluminum or plastic guitar picks ,,, And who knows what else.
Once I get my head around the learning curve, I can already tell I'll be hooked.

I guess my question now is if the extra cost of the Buddy vs Desktop is justified for me.
I think it is, don't want to risk growing out of something in a matter of months.
I understand the advantages of the Buddy system are:
* Larger size, facilitating larger projects
* More power
* Faster cuts

[gene]

I too have been woodworking for about 36+ years and when i got my shopbot it blew my mind. You will only be limited to what you can imagine , my bot is a 48x96 and it has allowed me to do so much more that i ever could have before i got it. Perfect arch valances , fluted columns not to mention the 3D carvings . It will definately take you up a notch in your capabilities of what you can produce. Good luck in your choice.

[myxpykalix]

Doug,
I can't give you mechanical comparisions but I would check the forums for the other machines (if they exist) and ask their experiences with tech support, cost of repairs, any cost for talking to tech support (some places do charge) and how much is their forums used?

In the span of 10 hours you've gotten 15 responses, all positive, ranging from small machines to large machines.

I've had a 5x10 table with an indexer since 2006 and although i don't run it everyday I don't think i have called tech support more then twice since i've owned mine.

When i have called you get people who really act like they want to help you rather then making you feel like you are imposing on them. They initially sent me a wrong gantry, when i called I had another one the next day. Customer service is a top priority.

This philosophy must come from the head guy Ted Hall who most of us probably all know and have talked to at one of the Camp Shopbots. I have made request for software revisions which have been implemented in the past (still waiting on one tho...) and so they show a responsiveness to their customers.

Most importantly though is the quality of the machine itself. If it was a piece of **** with problems plenty of us would be griping and you really don't see that here. They don't censor us (unless we start acting like children).

However as stated the biggest asset you have owning a shopbot is access to the wealth of experience and knowledge that resides on this forum. Whenever i need advice or help 24 hours a day I can usually post a question and have an answer in minutes.
So from this perspective I recommend a shopbot, get the biggest one you can affored. Even a used larger one then a smaller new one is a good deal. You will find you will be asked to make things you never thought of before and you don't want to limit your options.
I have a 5x10 table but honestly 75% of all my cutting can be done on a 4x4 table.
So buy a shopbot because then you get to hang out with us!:D

[cabnet636]

I have indeed seen the Stingers, look like fine units ,,, But I put them out of contention for no other reason than not to further complicate the decision making process.
Also, don't really want to have to set up a dedicated computer for control, which would, obviously, further add to the cost.

I guess I should still consider the Buddy, I do have the funds for it.
Shipping cost doesn't appear on the site, I'm almost afraid to ask what that would be for a 600 lb unit.

i am a bit courious, how do you plan to operate any of these cnc machines without a controller computer?

hey gene we are on in columbia march 25/26 sat all aspire!!

eagle globe and anchor are now installed

[Xray]

i am a bit courious, how do you plan to operate any of these cnc machines without a controller computer?



I believe "dedicated" is the operative word.
As I understand it, the Stinger requires a computer with a special controller card installed ?
And I read the recommendations, basically to run or load nothing else on the OS besides the controlling software.

[michael_schwartz]

I believe "dedicated" is the operative word.
As I understand it, the Stinger requires a computer with a special controller card installed ?
And I read the recommendations, basically to run or load nothing else on the OS besides the controlling software.

Almost all CNC equipment will require a PC to run the software that controls the machine. The ShopBot control software is available for download free of charge, and can be run in preview mode without a machine if you want to get an idea of what it does.

http://shopbottools.com/mSupport/controlsoftware.htm

A bare bones installation of windows on a dedicated PC is recommended due to the fact that non essential software or hardware can and likely will cause issues. Communication between the software, and machine is critical, and you don't want to introduce anything that isn't necessary into the picture.

I can't comment on what interface the stinger uses, but with the ShopBot, your going to want a dedicated USB 2.0 card for the machine.

You really only need a PC that is somewhat recent. There are allot of refurbished off lease pc's that come with XP Pro. Just make sure to throw away the no name keyboard and mouse that may come as a part of a bundle and replace them with name brand counterparts. I had some USB problems which I traced to such accessories.

[Xray]

I see your pont Mike, no doubt valid ,, And I'm aware that CNC equipment requires a PC.
I have went from $5,000+ to $8,000+, want to avoid adding another $500 for a computer, when I have 3 sitting here already.
I sure won't be watching any videos or playing Starcraft 2 on the computer while running code !
But if I have to get another computer, it is what it is.

I just might recoil when I find out the shipping charge on the Buddy, think I'll call later this afternoon and find out.

[ken_rychlik]

The pc to run the bot needs to be stripped of auto updates, anti virus, screen savers, power savers, and anything running in the background that could interfere with operation of the machine. You basically wil want a bare bones operating system. Most older pcs you may have in a closet somewhere would do. Add some ram and a dedicated usb card though.

Don't forget to check craigslist.org in your area for used ones.

In fact if you post your area, you can probably find someone willing to show you theirs in operation also.

[dana_swift]

Doug.

Like yourself, I once studied everything I could read on the web. There were big expensive machines. And little cheap ones.

Money was an issue (it always is) so I needed to keep costs down.

I too was looking for the bottom end "entry level" machine. At the time all Shopbot offered was the "not-yet-shipping" BT-32.

It seemed to me I was placing a bet, and the only thing I could be sure of is reputation. SB clearly had the edge. Their website made the difference. It explained so much. I could read the manuals, I could study. They were very open.

So.. I called and a HUMAN answered the phone. I didn't have to push something before I could make a language choice. That support is still there.

Speaking of humans, when you call tech support, these guys USE shopbots and KNOW what you are talking about when you are having a problem. They are not reading from a script in some off-shore country.

I have one of the very early BT-32's. I have owned it for roughly four years now. SB then came out with the powersticks, and I felt like I not only had made the right choice, I was dealing with a company that was interested in improving their products.

My BT-32 is significantly different than the modern BT's. I like them both. I have access to a modern BT-48 (with powersticks also) it is a great machine period.

The BT's are built from the same parts as the gantry routers, so they are incredibly tough.

When I ordered my BT I was told that it would not work with an indexer. They did not want to get my expectations up. Guess what? SB supports their machine even if you modify it! I did, and now I have an indexer on it. (Love that too!). I am currently working on a 5th axis for my humble BT-32.

A shark is probably a nice machine with a lot of great owners also. But can it expand to 5 axes? Or four for that matter? What happens to the warranty when you take it apart and re-assemble it "your way"?

Shopbot expects you to change your machine to meet your needs. The warranty still applies. The support is still there.

With a BT machine you can have the upgrade option of an 8' powerstick and hog out a full sheet of plywood. Try that on a shark.

With that all said, most of my projects still fit nicely on my original 24x34 cutting area. When they dont, I did buy the powersticks.

And another option to mention. Vacuum hold-down. Mechanical hold down is simpler, cheaper, and more reliable. So why vacuum? Fast and "pretty good". I created a vacuum table for my BT-32 (pictures posted here on the forum). I still use it, and the mechanical table also. I use whatever the project needs. Its quick to change from one to the other. (Heavy I admit.)

I don't think the SB desktop has an indexer or vacuum either. But I would be surprised if somebody on here doesn't figure it out and post "how to". When they do, SB will still support it.

Whatever decision you make, buy something. My only regret is not getting started sooner. I spent over a YEAR getting paralysis through analysis.

Get started. Welcome to the world of CNC. It hope it changes your life as positively as it did mine.

And a final comment. What is the name of the person behind the shark? With Shopbot its Ted Hall. If you ever meet him, he is very personable enjoys talking to his customers, and really KNOWS shopbots. All about shopbots. Is the person behind the shark an enthusiast or an investment banker?

Just curious..

Dana

[gc3]

I believe "dedicated" is the operative word.
As I understand it, the Stinger requires a computer with a special controller card installed ?
And I read the recommendations, basically to run or load nothing else on the OS besides the controlling software.

http://www.wincnc.net/mapp_router.php

http://www.machsupport.com/

I believe these are the 2 types of control software for the stinger.

[Xray]

Well, the Buddy is out of contention.
I am not paying $1,000 for shipping - Now I can see why the shipping price is not on the web page, most folks would click right away after seeing that.
Also notice they want a cool $900 for the "ready to roll upgrade package", which consists of a router, 8 bits and a set of wheels.
Who in their right mind would pay that much for so little ?

Thanks for the advice everyone, read it all with interest.
Not sure what I'm going to do now, I've talked myself out of a small desktop, and also don't care to get raped on shipping.
I understand, heavy items cost $$ to ship ,, But $1,000 ?? Surely, that cannot be actual.
Raking on shipping is really something that gets my goat, I'd prefer they work their padding into the item itself rather than shipping.
I guess I'm either going to look into acquiring one locally, reconsider once again if a desktop will meet my needs, or put my CNC goals on the back burner for now.

[ken_rychlik]

That does seem expensive for shipping. Where are you located?

[gene]

I agree , 1000 seems high but i havent rented a dog sled team before . Isnt there a ton of snow up there ? maybe a summer price will be better. See what the shipping is on a stinger just to have a comparison. Good luck

[Xray]

I live in the metro Detroit area in Michigan.
I was told a $250 crating charge, and $750 shipping ,,, All nice, very round numbers.
A little too round for me !

don't want to come off as a cheapskate here, but I was expecting more like $400 0r $500 max, even that I would have had to consider.
Didn't do too bad on the snow here, got maybe 6 inches, most of which is cleared off the roads.

[ken_rychlik]

Road trip to North Carolina???

I drove from Texas to California to pick up my current one.

I spent about 700 plus several days. 1 grand doesn't seem so steep after that trip. lol

[road_king]

If you go to Shopbot's "Home page" then click on the "Pricelist". Go to page 3...It lists the crate fee $275 and shipping $800.

I was considering a new BT-48 Alpha a few years ago then decided to purchase a used one. I bought a PRT-Alpha 48-96. Traveled 1,000 miles to get it. 1,000 miles back home. I am so thankful that my wife said to "get what I want and don't settle for less". At the time, I was considering the "carvewright". Once again, I am very happy with my decision......

Gerald

[Xray]

Fair points.
I still think its excessive, and am going to pass.
Shipping on the Desktop is $200 ... 5x more to ship the buddy doesn't cut it with me.

True, the shipping list is available as a .pdf document.
The Desktops $200 shipping is listed right on the page, the Buddy isn't, which leads me to believe they want to avoid shipping sticker shock from potential customers.

[bleeth]

Doug:

You can always set up a shipping account with CH Robinson for a quote and have them do the pick-up and delivery. Even though I am in Florida I deal with Dawn Callahan at their office near Buffalo NY and have found them reliable and helpful.
You can also verify pricing by downloading the FEDEX quote software from their site.

[Xray]

Their documentation says they will use a shipping company of their choice, don't know how receptive they'd be about other arriangements.

[jerry_stanek]

Fair points.
I still think its excessive, and am going to pass.
Shipping on the Desktop is $200 ... 5x more to ship the buddy doesn't cut it with me.

True, the shipping list is available as a .pdf document.
The Desktops $200 shipping is listed right on the page, the Buddy isn't, which leads me to believe they want to avoid shipping sticker shock from potential customers.


I just checked and the buddy is listed on that page. The buddy weighs a lot more than a desktop.

[Xray]

Yes, 600lbs + vs 102.
I am saying that the desktop http://www.shopbottools.com/mProducts/desktop.htm
has the shipping quote listed right on the page.
The buddy http://www.shopbottools.com/mProducts/shopbot_buddy.htm, does not.
don't know how much the Shark weighs, no doubt a bit less than the desktop, shipping is a paltry $65 on that.
Stingers apparently have no shipping info online.

I got an astronomical quote from Fedex, too ridiculous to even mention.
UPS is 619.21, guess I'm pretty much SOL, never expected shipping to be that much.

[gc3]

Bought a pr 48x96 in central usa $3750, 6 2009. Freight to San Diego on a dedicated truck, no off loads $1K. Importation to my shop in Mexico another $1K. Shipping is what it is :eek: ...look at the bot cost to ship from the NC factory... and you need to assemble

[Xray]

Probably right, is what it is.
No use whining, just have to accept reality and move on.
Am now reconsidering Desktop, or Shark even ,,, Or nothing.

Problem with me is I won't have this disposable income for much longer, if I don't make a move within 2 weeks, it'll be another year
before I could make a purchase like this again.

[hh_woodworking]

Doug PM sent

[Xray]

Thanks.
Am starting to consider a Desktop with spindle - I have the feeling I could save a good $500 at least if I got my own spindle.
Any recomendations along those lines ?

[Gary Campbell]

Doug....
As a "newbie", do you really want to learn the hard way that you didnt have everything "just right" when wiring and programming a 3rd party spindle?
Even if you purchase the same brand as SB sells, will it be programmed to operate properly with the new tool?

Will it include the proper interface to the SB board?

Will it have the same warrantee and tech support as if purchased from SB?

Do you, as a new owner, know exactly what you need to order?

If it ends up being wired impoperly and damages the new machines control circuit(s) are you prepared to bear the costs of your mistakes?

There are a good number of items in addition to the bare spindle that are required for your application. Very few places sell all the pieces that you need as an assembly. You will have to order many separate parts and have them be compatible, along with the installation AND self warrantee.

If you do a diligent search of this forum, I am sure you can find a few of those horror stories posted from others trying to save a few bucks and how it didnt work.

Either raise your budget to meet the tool you want, or lower your tool standards to meet your budget. You cant have it both ways.

[Xray]

Ok, scratch the discounted spindle plan.

[myxpykalix]

doug
save your shipping money and do like suggested and make a road trip. It is only 700 miles and 12 hours drive. What i would do is look at your route and see if you can hook up with bot owners during your trip to break up the monotony. This way you can skip the crating fee and shipping.
Or check the for sale section to see if you can find one close to you for sale.

[gene]

Be advised that if you go pick it up then you have to pay the sales tax. if it is shipped out of state i dont think that you will have to pay the sales tax . If i am wrong i am sure that someone will correct me:)

[Xray]

Not all that far, true, one of the reasons why I'm surprised its so much.
Probably the norm for these types of things, but the crate charge blindsided me also. Never thought of having to pay for product packaging, which is typically worked into the price of the actual item for almost anything else.

Road trip not an option.
If I was, not sure I'd skip the crate, unless I had an enclosed truck, which I don't.
Could throw a tarp and ratchet strap on it, that would be a tacky way to treat a $8,000 investment.
Could I rent an enclosed truck ? Sure, probably for about half the cost it would take to ship it in the first place, not counting gas or motel bills.
And yeah, would wind up paying a couple $100 at least in taxes too ,, Then I'd have to improvise a way to get a 700 lb box out of the truck onto the ground, if I made it back home alive after 24+ hours on 1,400 miles of slippery roads.

I dunno, going though mood swings at this point. May bite the bullet and pony up the shipping, may opt for a smaller model or brand, may decide to spend the $$ on another gadget .. Or,gasp, save the $$ for a rainy day !
My oldest daughter is in NC as we speak, going through a phase of USMC training ... To bad she couldn't piggyback that thing back to me at the end of the month.

[Xray]

Have now ruled out the Desktop, after learning that it only cuts materials a depth of 2 inches, making it not much more than a glorified engraver.
Still yearning for a Buddy, but am now not sure it will even fit in the only area I have avialable, which is about 6x4, going to have to do some measuring.
Now considering the Stinger again, seems it has a smaller footprint, larger cutting area, less bulk, cheaper, and far less to ship ... How can a machine that much smaller have a larger cutting area ?

In any case, haven't made the decision but it looks like its between the Stinger 1 & Buddy.
Thanks for the suggestions, seems like a standup crowd here, and I have no doubt I'd be a happy camper if I end up going SB.

[frank134]

you can also lease part of it with a dollar buy out. I did it. Only cost be a few buck over two years. shopbot has some people listed.

[knight_toolworks]

2" depth of cut is not bad. there are ways around it. There are issues cutting more then then in anything less then foam. You have to use a 1/2" bit and slop starts happening more and such.

[srwtlc]

Not to dissuade you from ShopBot, but if your someone who likes to build stuff, take a look at Joe's 4 x 4 machine.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/joes_cnc_model_2006/38220-joes_cnc_4x4_hybrid.html

Another nice looking benchtop model is Romaxx. Looks good, but don't know much about it.

http://romaxxcnc.com/

[Xray]

I've decided not to venture into DIY, for now.
I looked at the Romaxx ,,, Like the Shark and Desktop, I believe its too small for my purposes.
I live about 10 miles from their shop, maybe I'll check it out out of curiosity.

[GlenP]

Hey Doug. Mind blowing all the options on which machine to buy isn't it. I do love my shopbot PRS and the support is fabulous. Try to take in ALL that any one company or machine has to offer especially support. I also can say that the stinger is a good machine and have seen the brand in person and set one up for a fellow sign guy. He did drive down to get his from Ontario Canada as it gave him the opportunity to see how some are being built and put faces to names when and if he calls for help. I liked the idea of assembly of my machine as it helps me if anything should go wrong. I had a issue once with my shopbot and emailed in for some help on a Friday night and the next evening (10 pm) Ted Hall himself was sending me emails on how to get the issue resolved to keep cutting. I have NEVER had any company or the owner of the company do this support on closed office hours. Top notch. You may find you spend a little more now for a better, bigger or ?? machine but it probably will be worth it in the long run. Not to mention retaining its value if you ever do decide to upgrade or change. CNC zone and Sawmill Creek have tons of info on different machines as well. I also would recommend a dedicated pc for whatever machine you buy. You may find it will reduce or eliminate the chance of comm issues.

GLen:)

[gerryv]

Doug,
Have you ever heard the expression "there's no such thing as a free lunch"? If you're going to build your own machine (think months) and unless you're already conversant with controller software, then you're going to go through exactly the same process you just did here but with regard to (a) windows or linux (b) which version of linux (c) Mach or the other 2 or 3 or 4 (d) If you finally choose Mach after pulling your hair out, as most do, then (e) lockdown version of Mach, or (f) bleeding edge version of Mach (g) which of the Mach forums, as well as: which steppers, which level of user-ready (or not) controller from which supplier, which linear drive systems, blah, blah, blah right up until (z) and then maybe some. Guess what your accumulated wait times and shipping costs will be :-)

How do I know it? I went through the same process (for too damn long) and finally accepted that getting hung up on an extra couple of hundred bucks for shipping (for example) was not really wise when I finally realized that the extra few hundred or more "hours" I'd certainly spend as a newbie would make my time worth less than a buck an hour and I'd still end up with a somewhat or whole lot buggy prototype rather than a proven capable machine.

Maybe ask yourself it's just a case of cold feet like lots of us get first time out. If so maybe just sit back, take a breather this time and read the forums until the next window of opportunity opens for you. I think the biggest difference you'll find is that on most of the DIY and Mach forums, the topics of the day are mostly how to make the damn thing work and finding the solution can often (not always) go on for days and weeks; not because there's not a lot of fantastic people there but rather because no two home-builts are the same so there are no real anchor points to work from. Conversely, on the Shopbot forum, it a lot more of "hey, look what I built" (with my machine) and what's the best way to build this idea I have (with my machine). That's a big difference. I suppose it depends on if you want to pay the machine off with the machine.

That said, Mach would be my choice if I want to build CNC's or want to do some advanced, simultaneous 4,5 or 6 axis milling or even if I'm a real computer wiz. But I'm not. Alternately, if I want to build stuff WITH my machine, then SB is the easy choice the longer you look at it (unless you have $80,000k plus)

I guessing you need a breather like I've needed a few times when I was suffering from info overload :-)

[Xray]

Info overload, true.
Never considered, and am not considering, DIY CNC.
Wouldn't rule it out, some day ,,, But not now.
When I feel I'm being raked for shipping, that is a pet peeve of mine, not much I can do about it. Maybe they are padding their profits a bit with shipping, maybe not - Perceptions are hard to break, and its hard to see why a 300+lb Stinger can be shipped from Georgia for $350, and the Buddy is $1,000+.
Heavier = more $$, I understand that ,, But almost 3x more ?
Kinda irked me too that wheels of all things, are an optional extra. Cost maybe $2 each, 4 of them, I don't see why they just aren't added to the cost of the machine, even at a profit ,, And people can feel like they are getting a bit of a deal. To spend $9,000 on a high tech machine, then have to pony up another $20 for something as basic as wheels, just doesn't make sense to me.

That said, your points are taken, Gerald.
Turnkey machines offer benefits that are going to cost, simple as that.
I don't want to get hung up over $100 here or $100 there, just the same, don't want to throw them C-notes around like confetti either.
After going from a Shark or Desktop to a Buddy in a matter of hours, I thought I had reached a sweet spot until I heard that 4 figure delivery
charge.
But theres not much to be done about it, this isn't like buying a book on Amazon or something.
Bulky, heavy machines require $$ to move, I didn't consider that enough until it dropped right in my face.

Believe me, when you got 5 kids, including 3 pre teens, every last $$ counts.
In fact, if I don't spend this loot pretty quick, its going to disappear ,,, Thats why I need to make a move quick.

[penman]

Hi Doug,
I have been following this thread with interest. Like you I did not , and still hav'nt, got $'s to burn. I fully realise I am in a different situation to you as I am halfway around the world to you. Approx 3 years ago I was thinking of a CNC, read a lot, got overwhelmed with what was available, price's and all the other details that seem to mount up.

I lurked around this forum for a long time and read all the posts, could'nt understand everything but I could not believe how helpfull everyone was here. If you have a problem everyone will try and help you to resolve it, and believe me there are many experts here, unfortunately I'm not one, yet.

I purchased a Buddy 32 and have wished since I learned a bit more about it that I had got a 48. That being said I am more than happy with it. I understand that the packing/crating is exactley the same if they are shipping the machine 500 miles or 5000 miles. Mine finally arrived well crated and in A1 Conditioin. Excited I started to uncrate. I would be exagerating if I said it took half a day, it just felt like it. I finally got the thing unpacked and into the shed. It was ready,once I leveled it, ready to work, and still is. The only problems I have had with it since that day 3 years ago have been caused by me not understanding as much as i thought I did.

In closing I will say that I am a long, long way away from Durham and spent $5,000 plus on shipping, that is how confident I was with the machine, backup and support of this forum. I took the gamble and have not regretted it for one moment.

Roger.

[Xray]

$5,000 shipping, holy canoli ,,,, And I thought I had it rough !
But what are you going to do, you want something bad enough, and your choices are reduced to do it, or not, then the choice is clear.
That much expense to ship, I can easily see why you regret not spending a bit more for the 48.
Alot of expense, but you got something nice to show for it, and hopefully you earn a return on your investment.

[adrianm]

The only way to compare shipping prices is to get the weight and crate dimensions of the machines you're interested in and get your own quotes. Some companies will charge the full price to you others will embed part of it in the machine price. It's the total you pay that matters at the end of the day rather than the breakdown.

Peoples perceptions of shipping costs are very strange. I used to charge postage and packing at cost but I got endless complaints about the price so I just added it to the cost of the items and no-one has complained since despite paying exactly the same price!

I think the cost of shipping for the Buddy comes down to the fact that it's such a large box as it's fully assembled. My PRS Alpha 8x4 was shipped air freight to the UK for not much more than it costs to ship a Buddy by ground in the States. I hate to think how much the courier companies would have charged me for a Buddy.

The packaging is so good that I'm still using wood from it over a year later!

[ken_rychlik]

If you managed to save 3 or 4 hundred on shipping and it gets dammaged, then what?

I fought with shipping companies for months when I had a table saw shipped from your area to texas.

The shipper was helpfull and if you want his contact info, send me and email. The shipping company said it wasn't packed good enough, the packers said it was. Lots of finger pointing and nobody wanted to pay. Finally I did get taken care of and insurance paid.

If you do find a cheaper shipping alternative, don't forget to buy insuance. I'm sure it's included in the shipping price from shopbot.

[Xray]

I'm going to let this shipping dog go to rest.
Inflated price or not, its more than I'm willing to pay, and in fact am not going to pay it.
I understand that its well packed, and needs to be - It is the responsibility of any company to get any item you order from anywhere into your hands 100% intact.
With the "crating fee", that responsibility is, in practice, being passed off to the customer.

Might be the same with anything. Say if you buy a 60 inch plasma TV from Best Buy.
If you paid $2,400, then was charged an extra $30 for the box, you'd say .. Hold on a second here,,, Paying for the box ? Thats not going to fly !
But these companies calculate what it costs for packaging, they work that into the item price, and no one gives it a second thought.
Same scenario as Adrian brought up. It is perception, and perceptions are a large factor.

[michael_schwartz]

Sending minimum wage help, with a U Haul to pick it up would probably cost just as much or more by the time you factor in labor, gas, travel expenses, and meals etc... That is also assuming your buisness liability insurance would even allow you to do that.

A crate is not a cardboard box. I am pretty sure the crate that my machine came in would have cost me at least $250 to build, and pack securely. When you buy a plasma screen TV, the cost of the box is built into the price.

I think that the shipping cost are quite reasonable. With that being said, I paid full price for my machine, and I don't receive any form of compensation from ShopBot.

[Xray]

To each their own.
You don't feel like you were raked on shipping, thats your perogative.
No, a crate is not a cradboard box, thats fairly obvious.
Also obvious is the fact that the 2 are directly comparible, insofar as they are both products in need of packaging.
It costs TV maufacturers $$ to package a TV, it costs CNC router manufacturers $$ to package the router.
One openly charges extra for packing, one does not.
Considering that it is manufacturing norm not to slap an additional charge on product price for packing, I am struggling to see why it is necessary here.

[kurt_rose]

I believe the reason it's additional is because a lot of people go to Durham and take a 2 day class then take the machine home with them. Shipping and crating don't apply to them. If they built shipping and crating into the price then they would be the ones on the short end of the stick. I just traveled from NJ to Orlando to pick up a used machine (1000 miles each way) in a truck that gets 10 MPG with diesel @ 350 a gallon. No sympathy here! I don't mean to sound harsh but, either you want it or you don't. Everyday you don't have it is one more day it's not making you money. I know $1000. sounds like a lot of money in this economy but, you can make that back in one good day in the shop. JMHO

[Xray]

Not trying for any sympathy, far from it.
I've already decided to walk away from this, and just stated I'd like to put this to rest .... Kinda hard to do when people keep chiming in.
Everyones entitled to their opinions. Mine is: Shipping/crating cost is out of line, and I'm not paying it.
So a sale is dropped, $3,000-$5,000 profit is missed because of a $50 pile of wood.
Obviously, the majority are not like me, if they were then SB would be forced to change their procedues, or go out of business.

[jerry_stanek]

Not trying for any sympathy, far from it.
I've already decided to walk away from this, and just stated I'd like to put this to rest .... Kinda hard to do when people keep chiming in.
Everyones entitled to their opinions. Mine is: Shipping/crating cost is out of line, and I'm not paying it.
So a sale is dropped, $3,000-$5,000 profit is missed because of a $50 pile of wood.
Obviously, the majority are not like me, if they were then SB would be forced to change their procedues, or go out of business.


So if the machines where $1000 more and no crating and shipping then you would buy it.

[Xray]

Not at this point, no.
I expected a hefty shipping charge, not $750 though.
If in the first place the $1,000 was tacked on to the cost of the machine, with free packaging & delivery, I don't know how I would have reacted to that.
I surely would have presumed that shipping was built into the price.

Never even considered a packing charge, at all.
So they decided to go into the manufacturing of high tech, bulky, delicate equipment that needs robust, solid crates to insure safe delivery ,, Don't see why the cost should be on me. Its the complete, 100% responsibility of any seller, selling anything, to insure the safe, intact arrival of an item ordered.
If it arrived busted up, I'd call, and they'd say oh sorry bout that, would you like a replacement or a refund ?
If they said "Well, thats your problem, buddy", I would say "oh no, its not - Its YOURS !" and I would immediately charge back the purchase on the credit card.
Its a cost of doing business, and by, in effect, charging the buyer for the costs of packaging, they are transferring the responsibility for safe arrival to the buyer.

It comes down to this - How much profit do they make on a Buddy system ?
$2,000 ? $3,000 ? $5,000 maybe ?
Certainly in the 4 figures - And thats fine. A business exists to make a profit.
To pay for their own packaging would slightly bring those profit margins down ,, Maybe $50 to $100 each.
Buying bulk lumber its pretty cheap, and 2 good guys making $12 per hr could easily put together half a dozen crates in an 8 hour shift.
So should they eat the loss and take the cost of packaging out of the profit ,,, Or risk potential customers like me walking away and looking
at other options, saying by by to a 4 figure profit sale ?
Seems like a no brainer to me, but I'm not in the best position to judge.


Customer psychology is nothing new ,,, Gas stations charge $2.99.99 instead of $3, Walmarts charges $19.95 instead of $20, Best Buy doesn't charge separately for a TV box, for a reason.

[bcondon]

Hi Doug,

Here is my comments about both the desktop and the large Alpha. I LOVE my alpha with a 4x8 table. I was asked to help implement the desktop
unit for a local company so I have one at my house.

What I like most about everything shopbot does, is that everything is interchangable which may not mean much to you, but is huge for me.

I am working with a manufacturer and I can improve his manufacturing process by 2x, so he will buy a second desktop to get 4x improvement.
This is huge for him... At the same time, I can use the same files on my
large machine because he is behind by about a month, and I can catch him
up with my bigger machine.

Honestly, I wish he had purchased a buddy because We could load the machine less often and get much higher production numbers.

The packaging on the Alpha was amazing. The local store picked the
crate out of the truck (because the tailgate truck did not deliver)
and we put it onto my trailer of which I backed right into he garage safe and sound.

The packaging on the desktop is all plywood, on a crate with extensive
cushioning and tie down.. It is a quality crate.

I am having a "wicked fun time" making the system "turnkey" so an
operator with no experience can be trained in a few hours and be
fully productive in a day. The Shopbot system, with a few hints from Ryan and Frank on the support line, is VERY PROGRAMMABLE.

AT some time I hope I will be able to tell you of the project (which will
be done early this week).

And thanks to Dianne for sending the customer to me... he bought the machine with promised help, and the help backed out... but there are a
lot of us around to help, and the folks on this forum "always have your back"

At some point, you just hit the switch to buy the system and don't look back...I have always been more than pleased...

now for that plasma cutter...


If you have any questions about the desktop, please send me private email
bcondon11@yahoo.com

I have played with it for about 3 weeks and it is one nifty machine!
Bob Condon

[knight_toolworks]

A shopbot will make you money simple as that. yes shipping is a bit high but the overall cost is not bad.

[Xray]

I agree Steve, I'm down to more principle than anything here.
The machine I will be getting will make me $$ too, and the $700 I'll save on shipping/crating I can put towards software or something.

Regardless, I'll continue to monitor this forum.
Standup, knowlegable guys all bonded by a very good product.

[kubotaman]

Doug, not to make you mad, which is certainly not my intention, but I have a Alpha PRS 60X120 with 12" indexer and just recently purchased the ATC upgrade. Today, Saturday morning, I spent an hour with Brian from Shopbot support. He aso called me later today and we spent another 2 hours on the phone trying to get my unit to work correctly. I can't say enough for the support, which is free to anyone. That is worth everything to me! I had a CNC Legacy which was at the time top of the line. Not only did they have absolutely no support but would promise you the world. I really had problems with their products. They were very flimsy and pretty poorly engineered. I am still waiting for a call back from them and that was about 8 months ago!! Couldn't sell that machine fast enough!! Try that with any company now a days and we will grow old waiting. I realize that the $1000 is hard to come by. My cost for the original shipping, to north of Seattle was about $750 dollars 18 months ago. To get it the other 13 miles, I live on an island, was another $1000!!! Needless to say I went, the 13 miles, and got it since I had it delivered to a terminal. Just my spouting off in regards to the shipping costs. Shopbot, and I am very particular with what I spend my money on, is one of the best companies I have dealt with. Believe it or not but I absolutely have no regrets as to ShopBots quality nor their service! They are tops in my estimation. Buy what you are comfortable with but remember that service is extremily important and they have it!!!

[Xray]

Am not bitter, mad, angry, any of that.
I look at something like this as a simple business transaction.
An outfit has something I might want, they want my $$, so lets see if we can make this fly.
Terms were not up to my expectations, so I walk away.
They don't get my $$, I don't get their product.
Of course, on an internet forum, things can often take on a life of their own.
People come in from different angles and perspectives, saying things that perhaps make you think of something you haven't thought of before, which opens up another line of reasoning or dispute ,,, And things can really get going.
This can be for good and for bad ,,, But if I walked into the company door and couldn't come to terms, I'd be out in 5 minutes and wouldn't look back.

I'm not one to burn bridges. I'll probably own a Shopbot at some point in my life, just not now.
Top notch support is a large factor in something like this, the outfit I'm considering buying from now seems pretty good in that regards.
Shopbot has been around longer, has a larger client base & more units out there, so naturally there are more resources available for it.
They have a great rep, loyal following and have no doubt earned it ,, But at this point, I simply feel that I can get a better deal on a comparable machine, and save over a grand, and thats probably what I'm going to do.
As one guy here put it "Do something !", and I intend to do just that, before my expendable stash of $$ shrinks and disappears.

[gene]

Whatever you go with i wish you the very best. I have enjoyed my cnc very much and no matter what brand, after you get used to it it will be an enjoyment as well. It will definately make building things easier with an accuracy that can not be done without a cnc . You will be only held back by your immagination. good luck on the journey you are going on!:)

[Xray]

You will be only held back by your imagination.

Quoted for truth - I feel that way already, doing things by hand.
How much more so that must apply with a CNC.

[beacon14]

Its the complete, 100% responsibility of any seller, selling anything, to insure the safe, intact arrival of an item ordered.

I know you have made your decision and am comfortable with it so I will not try to change your mind, but I have to disagree with this statement. Shopbot is not a shipping company, they are a manufacturer. They make machinery, not consumer electronics or toothpaste. Typically with many large, heavy shipped items of this nature the sale is made "FOB dock", in other words the maker's responsibility ends when the package has been picked up by the shipping company. Other than building a robust crate there is no way they can guarantee 100% that the crate and it's contents will arrive intact. If there is a problem they will typically work with the shipping company as they usually have a relationship with that company that is deeper than the buyer has, but as long as the product was well-packaged any damages are paid by the shipper (or their insurance).

The reason you get a box when you buy a new flatscreeen whether you want one or not is that it's not possible to go pick your new TV up from the manufacturer (in China or wherever), it has to be shipped in bulk to the distributor in a manner that allows it to be resold in a single unit with all the parts intact and that the customer can put in the back of their SUV. No so with the ShopBot. As has been stated many buyers have made the trip to Durham (some to save money, some to get familiar with the machine and the company or to take the training class) and brought their machine home. Some still buy the crate and put it in the back of a pickup, other strap the raw machine down to (or inside) a trailer. To each his own.

I do not agree that SB should include the cost of the crate or shipping in with the cost of the machine, but perhaps they should do a better job of showing what the shipping options are and what your total delivered cost will be with the various options. After all, it's the total delivered cost that you should be comparing. (Call a hotel and ask for the room rate, then stay a night and check the bill). You seem to be as upset that it was a surprise than that it is expensive.

In any case, best of luck with your new machine, you are a smart person so should have no problem getting it to work. If you get in a jam, we are still here to help if we can.

[burchbot]

Hi Doug
Thank you for keeping us informed on how you reached your decision. Sure we would have liked to see you with a ShopBot but you have explained why you didn’t. We should all respect that. This forum is a great place to learn no matter what cnc you have. You don’t need a ShopBot to visit. There are alot of talented people here.
Dan

[Xray]

Its the complete, 100% responsibility of any seller, selling anything, to insure the safe, intact arrival of an item ordered.

I know you have made your decision and am comfortable with it so I will not try to change your mind, but I have to disagree with this statement. Shopbot is not a shipping company, they are a manufacturer. They make machinery, not consumer electronics or toothpaste. Typically with many large, heavy shipped items of this nature the sale is made "FOB dock", in other words the maker's responsibility ends when the package has been picked up by the shipping company. Other than building a robust crate there is no way they can guarantee 100% that the crate and it's contents will arrive intact. If there is a problem they will typically work with the shipping company as they usually have a relationship with that company that is deeper than the buyer has, but as long as the product was well-packaged any damages are paid by the shipper (or their insurance).

We could go round n round and not come to a consensus.
If an item is damaged in transit, it goes like this:
* Seller reimburses buyer
* Seller is reimbursed by shipping company
So in that sense, the buyer could not care any less what happens once he is reimbursed. He doesn't have contact with the shipping company, and doesn't need to.
If the seller has problems getting reimbursed by the shipping company, thats their problem. So the buyer looks to the seller, and only the seller, for responsibility to see to it that the item that they paid for is delivered into their possession in 100% working order, as stated.



The reason you get a box when you buy a new flatscreeen whether you want one or not is that it's not possible to go pick your new TV up from the manufacturer (in China or wherever), it has to be shipped in bulk to the distributor in a manner that allows it to be resold in a single unit with all the parts intact and that the customer can put in the back of their SUV. No so with the ShopBot. As has been stated many buyers have made the trip to Durham (some to save money, some to get familiar with the machine and the company or to take the training class) and brought their machine home. Some still buy the crate and put it in the back of a pickup, other strap the raw machine down to (or inside) a trailer. To each his own.

TV's are in boxes to protect the fragile units, same as CNC - Saying that they are boxed simply because they can't be picked up in China is a bit simplistic.
Packaging of a product is very important, and indeed, somewhat of an art form, and the cost of it is typically worked into an items retail price.
You might say "Well, a flimsy box cost nothing to produce compared with a robust shipping crate", and of course that would be true, 1 on 1.
But you have to consider, they make far, far more TV boxes than shipping crates, probably on the order of 10,000 to 1.
So the cost of TV product packaging is, in total, far more than product packaging for CNC shipping crates.



I do not agree that SB should include the cost of the crate or shipping in with the cost of the machine, but perhaps they should do a better job of showing what the shipping options are and what your total delivered cost will be with the various options. After all, it's the total delivered cost that you should be comparing. (Call a hotel and ask for the room rate, then stay a night and check the bill). You seem to be as upset that it was a surprise than that it is expensive.

I think they should [include crate in the base price], for reasons already stated.
Not shipping, everyone expects a shipping charge - But I do think it should be actual, and I'm not at this point believing that they are not padding their profits with excess shipping charges, possibly in excess of $100 with each order.
I personally asked them via email correspondence if the charge was actual, I never got a reply, which leads me to believe that they'd rather not talk about it.
They have enough experience shipping, presumably with the same shipper, to know exactly how much it will cost to ship, and if its $554.95, then by god, thats what they should charge, not a flat $750.
The logic seems to be, and I may be wrong ,,, That people have already spent $7,000-$12,000 on the machine, $1,000+ on software, perhaps another $1,000 or 2 on optional upgrades ,, They aren't going to be concerned about, or even notice, a couple extra measly $100 on shipping.
Truth be told, I was expecting something in the $400 to $600 range total, if that was the case, my order would have been already placed.
I did suffer from sticker shock, and you are right, it was almost like a sucker punch - If it was all there, right on the page, "The cost of shipping this unit east of the Rockies is $750, plus a $250 crate fee", I probably would have just walked away right then, without posting about it.



In any case, best of luck with your new machine, you are a smart person so should have no problem getting it to work. If you get in a jam, we are still here to help if we can.

Nice to know, this forum is an excellent resource, and a net + to anyone into CNC, regardless of make of machine.
As I said, I can easily see a Shopbot in my future.

[Gary Campbell]

Doug...
Fellow Michigander here (UP).
Freight charges may or may not be what you consider fair and reasonable. They are what you perceive them to be in your mind. Consider:
1) Thousands (yes thousands!) of us have paid them.
2) You have the option to pick up the machine yourself, and save those "perceived" costs. I did this from a 1000+ mile distance, (twice) and:
a) Travel costs, (fuel, lodging) are higher
b) Local pickup requires sales tax
c) Only benefit is ability to attend SB training.

So.... from one of a few thousand purchasers before you.... The charges are what they are. Fair or otherwise, thousands have paid them and not whined... too much. And considering the 2 main options, crating and shipping is by far the cheaper, safer option.

[Xray]

Ok, now I'm whining.
I feel I'm getting raked on shipping, I should just shut up, bend over and pay the piper, like 1,000's before me have already done.
Time to unsubscribe myself from this thread, I have no interests in turning up the heat here and start getting personal.
I have, in any case, stated my line of reasoning more than enough.
Some may indeed call that whining, others critical thinking.

[MogulTx]

DId you know you had to have ten characters left in a post to edit it...? Now I do...

Modified because hammering on someone who is wrong is not beneficial unless they might listen and learn. I am not going to change anyone's mind, and have pulled the post and substituted this- which is now much longer than 10 characters

[myxpykalix]

Doug,
I think its time to let this thread die a natural death and fade into obscurity. You have made your case for the reasons you feel the way you do and thats fine, and if those here can't persuade you otherwise then you need to move on and buy what suits you best.

The one last point i'll make is that any extra money you feel you are paying extra you will surely make back in profit when using your shopbot. But in the end the decision is yours.....so good luck and see you later!:rolleyes:

[gene]

OK Now lets be nice! :)

[Nancy]

Discussion seems to have deteriorated past the point of usefulness and is closed.