Win 7

[GlenP]

Hey All. Hope everyone is well and busy. I think the time has come to update my PC that runs the shopbot. I have had a Dell P2 2.4 GHZ with 1 gig of ram running it. Now I find I am doing more 3d and textured backgrounds and tonight had a issue with comm bottleneck. I am wondering how any other botters like Windows 7 for running the router? I have always been a XP pro user on the bot and not sure if about changing but it is getting harder to find good XP pro machines.

Glen

[steve_g]

I’m very curious about responses to this post as I find myself in the same situation. The USB ports on my motherboard are all dead and XP drivers are not available for the new motherboards I’m looking at.

Steve

[srwtlc]

I built a new computer last June and put Win 7 pro on it. I've been pushing the machine quite a bit since then and it has worked quite nicely. Probably even (definitely) better than with XP. Just a few minor quirks getting everything set up, but nothing that couldn't be figured out. I'd recommend it.

The components I chose have worked out great. I went with an AMD Phenom II X4 945 3.0GHz processor, 4 gigs of ram, a Western Digital 640GB 7200 RPM SATA hard drive, and as always an ASUS motherboard (went with onboard graphics). Got a decent case with a 350 watt power supply and a DVD burner/drive. All that for less than $540, plus the cost of Win 7 pro, but I got it when it was $99 so that wasn't so bad either.

Sometimes onboard graphics can be weak, but this one is quite good. Processor is snappy as well. Not that I'd recommend it, but I tested running a video in iTunes (can you say resource hog!) and running the machine at the same time and I bet I could have run it that way all day.

Large 3D files have run flawlessly. I've had to run it all night long quite a few times in the last 9-10 months.

It's really not that hard to put together your own computer and you don't have to put up with all the crapware that is installed on the PC makers models. :(

If your interested in building your own, NewEgg is your friend! ;) Also, if you need help wading through all the stuff that's available, feel free to ask, I've built quite a few over the years.

[pappybaynes]

I have built several computers and would say the process is not bad at all...I use Tiger Direct and have had great success. My design computer is a Dell Workstation with 2 harddrives and 8gb of ram...has XP 64 Pro on it and this weekend I plan to upgrade to Win7 64...I am expecting it to be even faster than the original unit. (I bought the workstation refurbished from Chrosmack Ventures http://www.chrosmack.com/ great people to deal with)

[pappybaynes]

Wow!! What a difference!

[steve_g]

Well, I to am up and running again… I built a system this weekend consisting of a Athalon II X3 processor, Asus M4a88T-M mother bd, 4 Gig of RAM, and MS win 7 Pro. Total expense with a 1TB drive $450.00

All went well until I hooked it up to the shopBot. Ryan at SB support had to walk me through loading the drivers, a step I tried multiple times without success.

Apparently my jog speeds had been limited by my previous machine a Atom 1MZ 1Gig job, Sure is peppier now!

Win 7 was the least of my worries; it even automatically recognized my NAS drive I use for centralized storage.

Steve

[GlenP]

Hey that's great guys. What machine are you running....standard or alpha? I have a standard and speed has always been slower that I thought I should be able to go. I am not a computer guru so is assembly this computer something I should tackle. I am not computer challenged or electronic challenged as I used to assemble electrical control systems for factory automation. I am located in Ontario Canada so suppliers will be different that some of the US ones but if I had some part lists I would love to out together a new pc for my machine. Can you guys email me? glenp1@sympatico.ca
:)
I would be using supplier called Canada Computers.

[steve_g]

Glen:
email sent

Steve

[toych]

Glen, I'm using a Dell Vostro Business tower, it has run perfectly for me. I have had the comm issue a couple of times but never while running a file.
I bought it directly from Dell for 299 and free shipping back in '08, dirt cheap in my books.

I believe in having a dedicated system for the Shotbot, I have never had it connected to the internet or installed any other programs.

I have had the best luck with Dell and HP products.

Sorry I can't help you with the Win 7 question but I am anxious to hear what others have to say.

BTW, nice job on the guitar shop sign.

[michael_schwartz]

I will second building your own PC.

The key is spending your time picking out components.

I like to start out with a target "budget" for each component. I usually proceed to min max each choice within the allocated budget based on reviews, and benchmarks. Then I match the processor, and graphics card with a quality motherboard. If your not sure look up the manual for the motherboard, and make sure to pick ram that is on the list approved by the manufacturer

Get a quality power supply. If you buy a case that comes packaged with a power supply, throw it out. Never cheap out on the power supply. A good one with power to spare should last you through a number of builds.

If you look around you-tube there are plenty of how to videos on assembly. Its really not hard, if you have chosen your components correctly. I had my first build up and running within a half hour.

Regarding static. Avoid working in socks while standing on a carpet floor. The best place will be an area without carpet. Get in a habit of touching unpainted metal on the case prior to handling the processor.

When you have set everything up properly everything should work. You shouldn't have to mess with BIOS unless your doing something special. If you have a problem the first thing to check would be RAM, and then the next problem may be a defective component. Most retailers have return policies that address that situation.

One of these days I will try running the Shopbot with my Win 7 Laptop.

[gerryv]

Devil's advocate position: Stick to your knitting.

If I were as busy as I know you are Glen, I'd ask myself how many productive/profitable hours would this take me away from or slow me down at what I'm making my money on.

I'd be tempted to ask myself if I can afford the risks and costs associated with potentially saving a couple of hundred bucks IF all goes well. Especially if I'm new to doing this stuff and mess up, need to rework, take a hammer to it :eek:, etc.

I think I'd be more inclined to go to a reputable geek shop who would likely know how to clean out windows properly and have the means to test/verify things like the strength of your USB output. And give them a budget or get a quote of course.

Then again, I'm a bit of a geezer so maybe younger guys like you are a lot more comfortable inside those black boxes than me ;)

[srwtlc]

Once all the components are in hand, it shouldn't take more than a weekend to get it running. Getting all your software installed and set up usually takes longer and that's something that you would have to do with store bought one. Bonus, no crapware! It would take another week to get rid of and clean up all the junk that they put on it (maybe not quite that long). ;)

Selecting your own components will often get you better quality longer lasting parts.

I would recommend working your way through the BIOS before installing Windows. First, to make sure that your new rig posts properly and second, many times the BIOS will conservatively underclock the processor and ram. Also, you can disable/enable items that you don't need to have or do want. Why does anyone need "Boot up floppy seek" and "first boot device - Floppy" anymore. ;)

Just a note for those that have a licensed copy of XP and all of a sudden realize that you can't do a clean install of Win 7 with your "Windows 7 Upgrade" media. Yes you can. Go here and follow the steps...http://www.winsupersite.com/article/win7/clean-install-windows-7-with-upgrade-media.aspx Yes, it's legal. So don't spend more for a full version of 7 if you already have a licensed copy of XP.

Scott

[GlenP]

I agree Gerry that I cannot afford to have down time with my current workload and I would never rip the pc apart or start into something risky at the risk of production but then again I didn't like ruining a half sheet of hdu material and loss of time re toolpathing the design to break it up to reduce the file size due to my current pc. I think I will start compiling the parts and get ready for when a break in my schedule allows to install and test new pc with the bot. The one good thing by building a new one is that I will have the current pc as a backup and it can be reinstalled in a few minutes if I should have a issue or failure. My sign work is getting to have large files due to 3d components so I am forced to do this soon as my current pc for the bot is not cutting it.
I personally like the idea of getting my hands in there and poking around in that black box.:D:D I feel I need to learn more about pc's as they are a big part of my income these days.
Most don't know but Gerry and I have become what I would like to call good friends and we are only 20 minutes away from each other. He knows my current workload I appreciate the devil's advocate in him.;);)
It certainly is nice to have other botters close by in case of major issues.

[nailzscott]

My 2 cents. I have been building my own computers and pc's for friends for over 20 years (when my first single speed CD drive was $700, really) but last time I just bought a pc from Dell with everything loaded and complete for around $450.

But the computer I use on the shopbot is one I built around 7 years ago. Its a simple machine, big enough to run the shopbot, small dedicated graphics card, Windows XP, and a fairly small hard drive by today's standards. It has never been a limitation that I am aware of. I use a different computer for design work and I am not generally doing any design work on the shopbot computer.

Starting from scratch building one is the easy part. Loading up all the software takes far more time than the build.

If I needed another pc for the shopbot, I'd probably just save the time, buy one from dell with a configuration I could change if I wanted to - and spend a few hours cleaning out the junk software and load in the new. The only reason I would beef up the components is if I planned on doing design work on it.

[Brady Watson]

I'm glad to see many of you are building (or have built) your own PCs. The one I built for the Bot about 7 years ago is still going strong and it runs like a Swiss watch.

Building your own PC is NOT about:
1) Proving to yourself or others, anything.
2) Saving money.

It is about building something that isn't loaded with all kinds of junk software for people who don't actually NEED a computer to do anything constructive in the first place & using quality hardware that can be upgraded, repaired or replaced if something happens in the middle of a job. PCs designed for the average person to surf the web, write email and maybe a word processor really weren't designed to run a CNC in a dusty environment. An industrial PC would be the right machine, but cost prohibitive. I chose to meet in the middle with a good case and known good hardware inside it.

While my 7 yr old rig is probably a little outdated, it has reliably run the Bot for 170hrs+ in one shot on a very large intricate project, without skipping a beat. I can walk into my local computer shop and buy a MoBo, processor and RAM and upgrade it if need be. It really isn't that hard to plug in wires and turn a few screws and then have Windows basically self install.

I've heard, seen and resolved many of these COM errors that people get and it is a direct correlation to the quality of their computer components. In my experience, Dell is the absolute worst offender with inferior/lame USB hardware. I don't know why this is & wish they'd kick it up a notch because there sure are a lot of Dells hooked to Bots. I always recommend a 4-port PCI to USB card on the Dells in addition to the 2.0 hub to increase USB communications & get it off the same bus as the kb & mouse.

The only time I ever had a COM problem was when I stupidly kicked the USB out while cleaning around the machine. Building your own rig is well worth the investment in time and money, if you truly understand the value of it.

-B

[GlenP]

Well I am still going to build a pc for my shop office but for now picked up a great pc for $200. It is a amd with quad core 64 bit, 4 gigs ram and 1tb hard drive. It has the typical store bought software add ons and Windows 7 Home Premium.
I removed all antivirus software and disabled all updates, screensavers, internet and email junk but wondered if the home premium is worht keeping or upgrade to pro or ultimate. I have ultimate 64 bit that I could put on it. It does run the bot nice but so far just air testing. Any advice from you computer pros would be great.

Cheers,
Glen

[steve_g]

Glen:
It sounds like you got a nice PC for a great price. You couldn’t buy the components for that money! I have to say that I’m nothing but happy with my similar machine on Win 7. I think you’ll be happy with home premium unless you network with other computers at your home/shop, and even then you could do peer to peer with an office/design computer and the shop.

Steve

[GlenP]

Hey guys. I am having a comm issue with the new pc and looking for advice. I am running windows 7 Home Premium. I have turned off all updates, internet and firewall stuff but wondered if anyone a guide for windows 7? Another botter wrote one for XP. I am running the lastest version of shopbot control software. Suggestions?????

[bleeth]

It could be that your USB needs to go through the separate hub route instead of plugged in directly.

[GlenP]

Hi Dave. I have it going through a external hub. I did a comm test and it was at 70% which I think should be higher. My old control pc was at 78%.

Glen

[bleeth]

Yeah it should-lot's higher.
Did you get the hub and high speed adapter software loaded?
How much RAM do you have?
Next option is probably too much stuff running in the background.
For a different issue with a computer I have been on the bleepingcomputer.com site lately. Those guys really know how to clean up processes. Might be worth posting there.

[GlenP]

The pc has 4 gig of ram and 1 tb hard drive. I am trying to remember if the usb hub came with software.

[ssflyer]

Hi Paul,

I'm running the 'Bot with a 7 year old homebuilt running XP Pro, without a hitch. It has a 3 drive RAID drive system 2GB RAM and ~3.6 Pentium 4 processor. The computer actually talks to the 'Bot through about a 16' USB active extension cable, and hits about 74% on the com test. I think Shopbot says anything over 70% should give full throughput, but that's just my recollection - could be wrong. I'm running a PRSAlpha, and push it pretty hard.

The active USB extension cable amplify the signal in both directions. one example can be found here. (http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-U026-016-Certified-Extension/dp/B0002D6QJO/ref=pd_cp_e_2) It's basically an inline hub, in addition to the one you are already using...

Another resource is Microsoft, itself. AutoRus and the msconfig utility are your friends :) Here's a link to a good resource at Microsoft. (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/Optimize-Windows-7-for-better-performance)

Hope this is of some help,
Ron

[bleeth]

That's plenty of RAM so it's probably software/resources related. Let us know the results after you get start-up and background processes cleaned up.
The hub probably had it's own driver-check out the mfg's site if you don't have it around anymore. Same for the high speed serial/usb connector (if you have one-depends on your control box).
Without the driver you are not going to get all the speed it is capable of.
You really should end up in the mid 80's or better when comm is right.

[bleeth]

Came by a little freebie program designed for new computers that come from companies that put all kinds of trial programs and garbage in startup. It basically identifies them and removes them on command so you know what it's doing. I ran it on my home PC (Which I've had a long time) and it did ID a few things that I had no problem telling it to delete.
It's freeware and yes that really is it's name. Works on XP, Vista, and 7:

www.pcdecrapifier.com

[GlenP]

Well new pc for the shopbot is built. It was fun and big thanks to Scott and Steve for all the help and advice. However I am still getting low comms. The strange thing is that they are still at 73% range. So I have tried 3 pcs and all close to the same. This new pc has no crapware at all. It is a AMD Phenom II X4 processor, 8gigs 1600 ram, 1 TB HD. Works real nice as far as pc goes. Any thoughts as to what to look at next??? I am wondering if I should be looking at the controller for any issue with bottle necking my comms? I am running the 3.6.36 version right now. I read somewhere once about firmware updating issue and a process to do to get a clean update.....can't find it now.

Glen

[bleeth]

You're right. It should be higher. When you got the new rig up did you remember to load the software for the hub and serial convertor?
Is the computer hooked up to the internet? Are you running any anti-virus, firewall, etc.?

[GlenP]

I don't have a serial to usb adapter Dave. Mine has a usb card on the controller. I updated windows 7 to get the latest updates to see if it helped and still at 73% range. I also updated the control software to the newest as well. Did a air test today and it held comms fine. I will admit the low comms is driving me nuts. My old pc is a dell 1.8 p4 with 1 gig ram and xp 32 bit and it was getting slightly higher comm speeds.:confused:

[bleeth]

Glen:
I am not a processor expert but I just did a little quick research and found this article:
www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Phenom_II_X4_840 (http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Phenom_II_X4_840)

It seems to suggest that with plenty of power and storage this model (840) is balanced by a slower speed that accounts for the discount price.

Other models of the Phenom II X4 seeem to have much higher speeds. Which one do you have?

[GlenP]

Update to win 7. With this new pc built from scratch my comm speed is 71 - 72%. Ryan at shopbot feels it should be fine. I have chatted with some others using the usb card on thier controller and not the usb to serial adapter and it seems the speed test turns up lower than with the serial adapter. I will say I am not having any issues with the lower speed test numbers on this new computer. I has worked flawlessly for the last week and I even trusted it to cut some hdu ($$$$ material) and all went well. Aspire works way better on this pc due to the ram (8gig) vs the old machine (1 gig). Hope I haven't doomed myself by saying it is working great to have it start acting up....:eek:
I anyone is thinking of building your own pc I highly recommend it. Fun and a great learning experience. I did have to install the shopbot drivers in windows 7 "as administrator". (right click mouse) and they loaded great. Well back to spraying finish on cabinets and cutting....:)

Cheers All.