PRS Standard

[jimmya]

I have a PRS Standard with this control board (see Pictures) and Vexta Motors (pictures).
My question is can I get a new control box that will run the motors that I now have. Right now if I jog at 4.00 I lose steps. Or is there adjustment that can be made in the box?
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[gc3]

What computer are you using? Might need to upgrade to more RAM.

[jimmya]

I've had this problem from day one in 2007 at the time I just delt with it. I've had the machine on 3 or 4 computers, all of them with 3 gig or better ram.
I can use the arrow at 4.00 and inside the control box I can see the lights on the drivers and they get dim when I use the key. I'm thinking the power supply is not putting out the right voltage or weak.
Thanks for your reply
Jimmy

[ken_rychlik]

What voltage is the power supply set at and do you have a way to watch that voltage while jogging?

You should be able to jog at about twice that and cut at 3 or 4 with no trouble.

At one time I had my prs gantry that was not rolling freely. That also caused the same symtoms that you have. I dropped all of my motors away from the track and adjusted everything to roll freely. Then I put the motors back in place.

Also the motors need to be snug against the gear rack, but not to tight. If that is to tight, it would do the same thing.

Sounds like you have plenty of ram. Do a usb speed test and see what percent you get. You may need a different usb cable or hub if you have less than 70%

Lastly call tech support. You should not need to upgrade anything really. Just fix what is wrong with it.

[jimmya]

Thanks Kenneth!!
I checked the power line going to the fan, it read 11.29 volts, joged machine there was no change in the Volts.
Jimmy

[ken_rychlik]

you are looking at the wrong power supply.

The one in the bottom of the case will be at least 48 volts. That is the power supply that I would be worried about. Some were set to around 56 volts also, depending on what model. This is the power supply that does the work of running the motors.

The power supply in the top of the box is just a pc power supply that gives 5 and 12 volts for the board.

[jimmya]

Don't feel stupid!!!
I'll call shopbot in the morning and find out how to check that one.
Thanks
Jimmy

[ken_rychlik]

The terminals are labeled on the power supply and there are a pair of wires running from it to the board. It will have 110 volts ac input and the output is what you will be looking for. somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 volts dc. It will say the voltage close to that plug. you can check it at the board or the power supply either way.

[ken_rychlik]

should look kind of like this with the ac power comming in on the N L and ground

Then checking from ground to V+ is what will be running to the geckos.

[Brady Watson]

With SB3 closed....Have you run ProgramFiles/ShopBot/Diagnostics/SpeedTest.exe ???

If you are getting less than 70%, are you running a 2.0 self powered USB hub? If not, kick in for the $20 and get one. It should boost your speed to 75-85%.

You can get one just about anywhere...RadioShack, Walmart, Office Depot, Staples...etc etc.

Just plug it into your computer & plug the bot into the hub.

-B

[jimmya]

The first Speed Test I did (see picture)
And the second test (see picture)
Brady thanks for your reply, I am not running the 2.0 self powered USB hub, I will get one today.
On the controler it says it's for a PRT I have a PRS, I think there may be a problem there as well.
I'll call Shopbot today and find out.
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Jimmy

[jimmya]

I installed the Hub and this is the speed test (see picture) but, it is still doing the same thing as before.
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Jimmy

[Brady Watson]

Well you've got good communication now...although, that doesn't completely rule out a comm problem because other USB devices can still 'stand on' the comm to the bot if you don't install a dedicated PCI to USB card on some computers (namely Dell).

A few more questions:

1) What are the conditions where you lose steps? - IOW - How fast, how deep, what material, just 2D, 3D or both?

2) What version of SB3 are you running? I would update and BE SURE to install fresh firmware with UI command.

3) Your USB cable isn't longer than 10' is it?

4) Using Windows Task Manager - find out what is running in the background. Use MSConfig to modify startup programs.

5) Post your VR settings fill in sheet.

-B

[german]

Hi Jimmy,
Yesterday night while reading your post I was telling me: well I'm not the only one, seems like it is been there for long time.
A couple of years ago (end of 2007) I was doing a research on the forum about the machine weird behavior and I find out a post from Brady talking about the 2.0 self powered USB hub and the speed test, next day I went to get one of those things, hopeful that the problem could be fix I install it and run the speed thest and get an awesome 87.7 transmition efficiency but nothing change with this, then I do another research and find out about the proper machine grounding which I did, and again NOTHING!.
I have lived with this problem all this years (3 1/2 now) I never call shopbot to talk about this problem because I thought it was relative to the standar machine, I was so convinced about this that about two years ago I ask shopbot for an Alpha Upgrade but it was close to $5,500.00 and I can not afford that.
I blem myself now for not reporting this problem to shopbot which has been a major headache that has been avoided.
I have the same machine you have, same motors,same board, same drivers, SAME PROBLEM .

German.

[jimmya]

I think I found the problem and it was a driver. I swopped out the drivers with Y&Z
and my problem moved to the Y. So I ordered 4 of the 203, Price $611.75. Frank from Shopbot
said they would work all I had to do was move a jumper.
I'll let you know as soon as I get the new drivers installed how things go.

Jimmy

[german]

thanks for that Jimmy, I hope it works, for you and for me.
Plase kepp us updated.

Thanks again.

[russ]

With my standard, I grounded, went with a 2.0 usb powered hub on it own seperate pci card. The biggest improvement was going with a cordless usb mouse. Still can only jog at 8.75 ips. comm speed at 84.6 so I'm interested in the change of drivers as well Jimmy thanks for the post.

[jimmya]

I just got an email from GECKODRIVE INC and they have been shipped, I’ll get them Wednesday. As soon as I get them installed I’ll post the results.
Jimmy

[GlenP]

Russ are you running a standard machine? And is it circa 2007? If you are running a standard and getting that jog speed I think you are doing well and might be close to your jog speed limits...but I am no expert. My standard is from september 2007 and I can now jog at 7 ips safely. I am curious as to what computer you are running and how the wireless mouse helped?

Jimmy, great news do keep us posted on your results.
Glen

[russ]

Yes, Glen sounds that we got the same machine at the same time. I have tried a couple of computers but go back to a Compaq Pasario. I believe that the cordless usb mouse tricks Window in the way that it uses the IRQ for the machine.

[jimmya]

Well you've got good communication now...although, that doesn't completely rule out a comm problem because other USB devices can still 'stand on' the comm to the bot if you don't install a dedicated PCI to USB card on some computers (namely Dell).

A few more questions:

1) What are the conditions where you lose steps? - IOW - How fast, how deep, what material, just 2D, 3D or both?


2) What version of SB3 are you running? I would update and BE SURE to install fresh firmware with UI command.


3) Your USB cable isn't longer than 10' is it?


4) Using Windows Task Manager - find out what is running in the background. Use MSConfig to modify startup programs.


-B

(1)
Just Jogging not cutting anything

(2)
3.6.34

(3)
About 6'

(4)
I'll look at that today



(5)
See Attachment
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Thanks for you help!!!

[russ]

Say Jimmy, you may want to play with your jog speed I found that a lower value worked best for me. My jog values are only at .25

[jimmya]

Installed New Drivers and I’m up and running again. My machine runs smother and sounds 100% better.
When I started the software up and started to run test, every thing was running in reverse order, I called Shopbot and talked with Frank, he told me to swap the green and black wires on the plugs at the control box, that fix it.
I thank every one that helped in the forum and emails. I hope my fix might help someone with the same problems I had.
Jimmy

[ted]

We've had a couple of questions about this thread and particularly Jimmy's success by installing the new gecko drives. My understanding is that his was an older PRSstandard with the black #202 gecko drives. It was determined that a drive had gone bad, and rather than replace that single drive the choice was made to upgrade all 4 drives to the newer #203 geckos. Not only did this fix his problem, but because the #203 are a little better driver, his overall performance improved as well.

I wanted to clarify that the first standard PRS's shipped with the 202 geckos. When the 203's became available to us, we shifted to using them. More recently, we upgraded the entire standard Control Box one step further with a new control board (with spindle control), somewhat better RBK drivers made by OrientalMotor, and a sealed industrial aluminum box. I really like this newest system and we are pleased to be able to make it available. (Unfortunately, the price went up a bit at each step.) However, even the first of these control boxes works well, and for us, it was a huge improvement from what had gone before and from what was available at even higher prices in other tools. Please note, that either we or gecko continues to be able to provide replacements for any of their drivers if a problem develops. They are a solid drivers and an industry standard. Gecko has always been supportive of us and ShopBotters. We continue to use gecko drivers in our new Desktop ShopBot CNCs.

Somewhat related to other issues in this thread, we will soon be making available a software update that includes a firmware enhancement for all PRS controllers (more specifically for any ShopBots with V201 or later Control Cards; this includes later PRTalphas and V4g ugrades [sorry about all the confusing numbers]). This boosts the communication speed X2, increases the outboard buffering X6, includes new communications checks and corrections, and a number of other things. We hope to release a beta versison shortly. These changes drastically improve overall communication efficiency and robustness between PC and outboard Control Box, and essentially do away with the need to worry about communication performance tuning. On many tools this will also improve movement speeds because the tool won't be running at the top end of communication channel capability.

Ted Hall, ShopBot Tools

[wberminio]

Thanks for the info Ted!
I also have the older drivers PRS Standard 2007 and have debated about upgrading the new control box and drivers.
I would prefer an Alpha upgrade( not possible yet!$$$$$)
I don't expect not to lose steps-but a bit more robust machine?
Maybe a bit faster jog?now @4"/sec

I like the features of the new box-but is it worth the extra cost?or is the belt -drive gear box upgrade that Dave R is working on a better deal?
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12709

I need to do something but no sure HELP!

Thanks

[bleeth]

There is no doubt that the Gecko 203 is an improvement over the 202 in some areas. That being said the G202 is a solid performer and I have had them in my board for years. If I had one burn out I would replace them with the 203's assuming the bucks were handy. Other than that there is no strong reason to change. With my 202 based board, USB hub, 6 year old PRT geared motors, and the PRS style rebuild I am jogging at 8ips and cutting halfway through 3/4" substrates at 3.5ips with a 5mm bit. IMHO a stock PRS standard should have similar performance. Tweaking the heck out of making sure everything is perfectly square, level, and plumb is critical.
Gary has a great article in his SB musings column regarding the PRS gantry adjustments. First and foremost is dead parallel z rails the correct distance apart in all locations. On mine I learned that a digital level and accurate straight edges were must have tools. I ended up using an aluminum extrusion that was designed for wallpaper cutting that I have used as a dead straight edge for years and I swear by them.

That being said, Ted stated in an earlier thread in response to a similar question that assuming one had a 4G controller the improvement by going to the new RBK would not be worth it.

If you have an older PRT with a 4G board you will not get improved performance by going to any other SB supplied combo except the Alpha upgrade package.

Erminio: since you have a PRS standard the only 2 practical ways you can improve the performance of your machine is either with the Alpha package or a Belt drive/motor package using motors with higher torque than the SB 3.6:1 Standards. I sent you a drawing the other week but have not heard from you. Did you get it?

[wberminio]

Hi Dave

Thanks
I was just curios about options.
I'll check my email.I've been busy looking at work(good thing-I hope!will pay for upgrade)
I be in touch soon

Erminio

[german]

Hi Dave,

Can I get access to the information about improve my machine performance, I also have a PRS standar and the same problems Jimmy had before, I was thinking in get the G203 drives but if there is the posibility to get better motors I will do that too.
I realy apreciate any help on this, my motors specs are as follows:

Model..........A6497-9412KTG
0.5" step
SB296-2TH3.6
4.39 HOMS

Thanks in advance for the info.

German.

[bleeth]

German:
If you have the same rough issues as Jimmy then you must first determine if you have a bad driver. That issue will clear up with a good driver just like a rough running engine will run smooth if the problem is a fouled spark plug that is replaced. Erminio is talking about improving the performance of a standard that is in good running condition. I will be updating the thread that Erminio provided the link to in a couple of days with some new information. In the meantime I would suggest you read through it so you have a feeling for what it is about.

[wberminio]

German
Hope all is well in Red Hook Brooklyn!
I believe we have the same machine/same issues!
Dave has been working hard to get this all together.
Keep in touch!

Erminio

[zeykr]

Thanks Ted! Looking forward to better communications in the new software.

[german]

Hey Erminio,

Thanks God everything is fine, In Williamsburg now but it is fine.
Same machine Erminio, sometimes She make me pull my hair out but it is
fine, I know I have to change the drivers but if at the same time I upgrade the motors or add a belt drive it will be great too.

Thanks for the reply Dave!
Nice to know about you Erminio!

Thanks Guys!

German.

[myxpykalix]

Ted,
Do these upgrades with the new control software include the independant axis control? I know last time we spoke about it you mentioned something about, it might be accomplished with a software upgrade, or at most a small added board(?) and wondered if you had put that on your "honey-do" list:D?