Shaper Cutters?

[kubotaman]

Does anyone have knowledge about running shaper cutters in their ShopBot? I have the 5hp HSD that comes with the auto tool changer so obviously I would not ask this question if I had a router. I want to make some cabinet doors that have arches in them and but I also have a large shaper. To use the shaper I have to make a number of patterns but I feel I can do it easier on my Shopbot if I use shaper cutters. I have figured out the spindle for the shaper cutters but thought maybe someone has done what I want to do. Any suggestions??? Thanks!!

[woodworx]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULi-Jpqppr0

A VIDEO IS WORTH A BILLION WORDS

[Brady Watson]

Any suggestions???

Yes. Wear a flack jacket. :eek:

Shaper cutters are usually large diameter & are run no more than 10,000 RPM. If you spin these cutters more than 10k, they will approach or exceed the speed of sound at the largest diameter portion of the cutter and can EXPLODE.

PLEASE don't become a statistic. We like having you around...There is a reason why you do not see many router bits over 2" in dia - and the larger bits clearly state to keep the RPM down.

-B

[bleeth]

No-one running a router in their machine should ever do this but with a spindle you should be fine. Perfect registration of your rails and stiles is critical and keeping the spindle at the same kind of speed as a shaper (as Brady points out) is totally required (6-8K). Also note that shapers don't feed real fast either. Speed will vary depending on wood to prevent burning and quick dulling of the bits. I would also make sure I am using quality bits and not something like Freud or Grizzly. Always liked Freeborn shaper bits.

[kubotaman]

Thanks for the advice. First I realize than all shaper bits are to be run at a much slower speed. I plan on not over 7000. Also I can appreciate the advice of only quality bits. Freeborn is my choice and that is all I run so quality is not an isue. Feeding is at a slow speed, not to exceed 1.5 ips and maybe not that. I of course will be very careful as to the safety issue and not push for speed. i just ran a cope and stick which was 2.5 inches in diameter and it ran perfect. Trouble is the two didn't match because of a quality control issue so that is why I am thinking about doing it with small shaper cutters. They are 3 inches in diameter so that is as large as I am going to go. Is there any other advice out there??

[gc3]

can't you outsouce the doors?

...and it's stile...not style

good video but looks much slower than a 3 dedicated shaper system for 5 piece doors

[dlcw]

Impressive video.

What I'd like to know is how do they do all that cutting without the slightest bit of chipout or blowouts on the wood.

I use an autofeeder and climb cut on my router table with brand new bits and get all kinds of chipout, especially on hickory.:mad:

[bleeth]

Don:
first you said router table. You won't get the same quality from a router as a shaper. Runout from a router as well as the high RPM's is a killer on that type of thing. At the same time if you are using a "variable speed router" you are not holding the torque when cutting. I've never climb cut cope and sticks. A proper shaper table is machined steel and dead flat. Router tables aren't.
Hickory is tough. It's a wild grained wood and with a router (that is what you said) you are spinning too fast. You can try slowing down your auto feed, but you also didn't discuss what kind of bits, etc.

Darryl: Next bit of advice is to make sure your clamping pad is well surfaced to your gantry so your pieces are correctly normal to your z and check your z plumb. I guarentee you that before Thermwood did that video they went through a whole routine of servicing the equipment.
Reality is there is no substitute for a shaper other than a shaper. And at the risk of repeating myself the "thing" sold by grizzly that a lot of people buy as a low cost shaper isn't really a shaper.
One more thing: Make sure the outer washer is on the shaft before you turn it on!! I suspect at this point there is nothing I have said that you don't already know. I'm curious if a Bot has the smoothness and resolution to actually pull off what you are after. Let me know how it goes.

[michael_schwartz]

I would shop around for tooling designed for specifically for a CNC router. Use the right tool for the job. This sort of tooling can kill if used improperly. Shaper cutters belong on a shaper.

[gene]

Daryl,
Is this a one time deal to make the doors or something that you are going to be doing on a regular basis? I have a 3 shaper system (weaver) and i can make a 3 piece raised panel door in under 2.5 min . sure it can be done with a cnc but i think that its like driving a finish nail with a sledge hammer. The shaper way is definately a safer way . When i watched the video i was thinking what if that panel came loose? even if you have 1 shaper i think that i would do the doors on it .

[kubotaman]

Well to set the story straight I don't have a grizzly shaper. I have a Powermatic and a Holz-Her feeder. I also have out sourced many doors but I just want to make these since they are to be mine. It is something I want to do. I ran a small set of Freeborn ( 3 inch cutters) today and ran them up to 10,000 rpm's just to see if they were smooth. You have to understand I would never run them to this rpm but I wanted to see if they were smooth running. They ran smoother than the CNC cutters that I had tried! Yes, I know to be safe I definitely have to be sure the stock is well held down. As far as the panel itself I have never thought of doing it on the Bot. I would do it on my shaper.

[myxpykalix]

http://www.magnate.net/index.cfm?event=showCategory&theID=40
shaper cutters

I have used 3" barley twist bits in my Porter Cable router to make columns on my indexer with no problems
http://www.magnate.net/index.cfm?event=showProductGroup&theID=235

I used large bits in my PC router on my legacy for years with no problems

[rhfurniture]

Hi,
I am also interested in this. I have use 80mm dia surfacing cutters without problem in my spindle at up to 12k. I have many large shaper cutters - groovers and the like - that are stamped to 10k, and provided you keep within the stamped rpm, one could try them, however a spindle is never going to be as steady as a shaper as there is less mass (than my heavy old lump of cast iron at any rate). What does interest me, and I would like to try, are the blocks for cnc routers designed to hold standard 40mm shaper cutters - available in UK from trend and titman - eg picture below. They are happy to run the shank down to 16mm. You obviously have to be careful with it, and only run at 8k, and at that diameter, the geometry to get the required profile in cad would have to be done right.
Anyway, any comments and experience on this line of thought most welcome.

[dhunt]

Shaper cutters are usually large diameter & are run no more than 10,000 RPM.
If you spin these cutters more than 10k,
they will approach or exceed the speed of sound at the largest diameter portion of the cutter and can EXPLODE. :eek:

PLEASE don't become a statistic. We like having you around...
There is a reason why you do not see many router bits over 2" in dia -
and the larger bits clearly state to keep the RPM down.Many thanks for this bit of advice re. large-dia. bits.

We'll soon be surfacing a new spoilboard, using an Amana 2.5 in. dia flattie we keep for that purpose only.
I'm fairly sure this is what we have..
http://www.amanatool.com/cncroutingdetails/rc-2257.html

Must remember to turn the Porter Cable down to 10,000 or less...

[CNYDWW]

Just to add to the pot. Here is Amana's offerings for cnc door production. http://www.amanatool.com/cnc-doormaking-router-bits.html

Most bits are 3/4" shank, couldn't use with a router anyways.

Regards
Randy

[dhunt]

I found this on the Amana site..
http://www.amanatool.com/maxrpm/


Some of the speeds seem awfully fast, don't you think??
-or are these speeds absolute max?

[kevin]

It would be crazy to use a 30,000 machine or a 150,000 machine as in the video

I know you can make 3 shaper setup for under 5,000

You have to know the limition of the cnc

[gc3]

It would be crazy to use a 30,000 machine or a 150,000 machine as in the video

I know you can make 3 shaper setup for under 5,000

You have to know the limition of the cnc


...been waiting for someone to say that :) and it's so true!

[Brady Watson]

3 Spindle Shaper via Grizzly's (http://www.grizzly.com/products/Three-Spindle-Shaper/G9933)

-B

[kubotaman]

Just for everyone's information these are the cutters that I ran for some doors the first time. http://www.amanatool.com/cncroutingdetails/insert-stile-rail-set-rc1130.html. Unfortunately as I stated before for some unknown reason they did not match each other as far as fit. The problem was due to the fact they were not ground correctly to fit properly to each other. When they were working in my Bot they cut like razor blades. I was most impressed with the cut. I ran them at 13,500 rpm's and no vibration what so ever. I realize that some people have doubts as to using shaper blades, small diameter, in their Bot. My thought is I would never use them with a router but for a spindle I do feel they are made to a precision piece of equipment. I ran some Freeborn cutters yesterday at up to 10,000 for a test. They were as smooth as the cutters from Amana. I do not intend to run at that speed but I will run the Freeborn's at 7,000 rpm's. My thinking is that we can make doors at any design we want if we are careful. A shaper is really not that precise and has to have a pattern to run arches. I do think with some caution we are cabable of way more than a shaper has to offer!

[dlcw]

Brady,

I sure wish I had the $$$$$ to get a machine like that.

[gc3]

A shaper is really not that precise and has to have a pattern to run arches.


ever run a Martin shaper..http://www.martin.info/cms/_main/fraesen0.html

[CNYDWW]

When i started my woodworking career at 18 yrs old i actually setup and ran large fixed spindle shapers. Arches for custom doors were only done by the owner's son because of the danger. A lot of custom work takes more time to setup those machines then to run the parts.

Regards
Randy

[kevin]

To my knowledge there is no door manfaufaing in North America running a cnc for there doors execept mdf.I think a cnc is way more dangerous then a shaper for doors.
The video is sleek marketing tool

The job is only as dangerous as you make it .I have lots of jigs to keep my fingers away .Any body wants photo just ask

I've made doors before I bought this shop 4 years ago.I don't make them any more .What i DO NOW IS CONCENTRAT ON THE WOOD WORK ISLAND ETC I just buy It might change later

maybe use the cnc for gothic doors or something really way out there .But your making a stock door

I'am only sharing experice this is not advice I,ve inclued a photo of a kitchen I made 6 yeas ago with 45 degre doors i made

As for your bits not linnig up hold them toghter male and female see if the line up

[gene]

How did you fasten the miters Clamped or mortised?

[CNYDWW]

In the custom door shop we had specialized tennoning machines that had the correct shaper heads installed. A full length line boring machine etc. The stock parts were laminated milled and run through a large molding machine accept for short run or custom parts done on the shapers. The arched rails were the big thing. We had the patterns and the jigs but sometimes problems happen. For cabinet doors, free form routing is completely different for cabinets then 1 1/2" thick solid hardwood interior doors. I do apologize, i should've specified sooner.

Regards
Randy

[kevin]

I apogolize to Darly I didn't mean to higjack your thread .I didn't want some to think making doors on cnc is the way to go .I hate false advertising b lls t salesman that never worked a day in therelife at a cabinet shop

To answer yor question Gene get ready to write this down . A 500. dollar dewalt miter saw .A 1200 dollar gernnal (chinnse model) shaper.100 dollar dewalt biscuits jointer .The glue I used was a polyurathane with wood glue for the biscuit. Miter you have to be carefull because they get glue starve so fast because the end grain drinks the wood glue.I clamped its trickey when you do a door

The point I'am making is you can do woodworking very cheap.People are forgetting the skill and paying your dues to be wood worker.Its a fine line to walk throwing big equiment vs skill which equal keeping your door open