Lurker turn owner

[lex]

So I have been looking at the things made on Shopbots in the virtual show and tell for years. Finally got to go to a users meeting last year in Mid-Eastern Florida. Today I brought home a 4 x 8 shopbot with a 220 single phase spindle I bought in Tampa.
Unfortunately the trailer I rented from U-Haul has side rails and back supports so I can't get it off the trailer without a forklift or overhead crane. (Not something I have in my garage:P)

I will take the unit to work tomorrow and beg the shipping guys to take it off the trailer so I can put it on something else (Not sure what yet) so I can take it back home and hopefully get it into my garage.

Now the tough part...I'm an idiot, well not at all knowledge-able on the set up and running of the machine. My thought is to hire someone to set it up and then go to a shopbot training class as well as the on-line classes. But I do not see anywhere on the shopbot website anything about service calls....

Also, during my shadowing of all you pro-fes'nals, It was obvious that you are all helpful and understanding.

So my plans currently are:

Get the thing off the trailer:P
get it in place
run wire to the unit without powering it up
level the machine with the leveling feet.
run vacuum to a central machine location
Check the computer to see if it powers up
And...beg for help

What I know so far: It looks like a PRT Alpha with a spindel. The VFD is a Delta, the spindle is 220 single phase, I have three small tool boxes with what looks like additional tool holders of some sort, The computer has a 2002 dataplate on it. All of the axis move easily by hand. (I was wincing as the people at the auction ran it back and forth from stop to stop)
The spindle turns very freely, and the wires are all a tangled mess. Oh and there is an aluminum plate that has a wire attached that I assume is the z-zero plate.

Sooo.....Advice pretty please?

[gc3]

if cables were connected to the control box...you may be looking for a new board :eek:

[CNYDWW]

Borrow, rent or buy engine hoists. They work great for picking the bot off the trailer. Mine, i had to pick it off then flip it right side up. 5x10 bot on a 5x8 trailer. Get lots of help!

[Chuck Keysor]

Lex, I bought a PRT alpha 5' x 12' in late 2009. It got loaded onto a truck with a fork lift that had extended forks. When I got it to my home town, three guys using two skid movers, were able to unload this onto a loading doc. Then, it sat inside on the loading dock for a week, while I disassembled the machine, and moved it into my house, piece by piece.

I had originally wanted to disassmble the machine where I bought it, and put all the parts into a truck, but the seller didn't want me hanging around for a day. But in the end, for me, that would have been the best course of action. And by the time I had it all put back together in my basement, I know doubly for certain, that taking it apart would have been best, because I found it had not been put together correctly in the first place, the assembly tolerances weren't very good, and I think I got some minor mechanical damage from the fork lift.

With all of that said, I would simply remove the gantry, and take that into your shop. When I took the thing apart, I actually kept almost all the wiring together, and moved the silver control box, the VFD spindle controller and the spindle all as one big tangle of wires. (Ironically, after I had put the entire thing back together, I had to splice/extend two cables, because they were about two feet too short.)

Take plenty of pictures before you touch anything, and mark parts for easy reassembly. And only a couple of wrenches are required. Then the table has to be removed, and then disassemble the sides. You won't need any fancy tools, you won't break anything more, and you only need one helper.

Honest, that may sound nuts to some people, but this is simple and it will help you to learn about your machine. You need to know your machine anyway, and this is a great way to get into it!

[hh_woodworking]

trailer jacks on the corners make the bot very movable and easy to roll off a trailer

[Jersey Bill]

When I purchased my preowned 60 X 120 PRT Alpha, I never saw it powered up. So I dissasembled as little as necessary to move it out and into my building. No wireing was disconnected form the motors or control box. On reassembly, I only put enough together test the control box and motors safely. Long story short, I proved that I could move the X, Y and Z axis just fine. I ran temporary power to the spindle to check its function. The next step for me was to level and square the bed and tighten all the spur gears etc. It certainly made me feel much better to know that the electornics were OK. This is a big part of the cost in this machine. Have fun!!

[lex]

So I found a rental place that rents all terrain forklifts and will use that to take the bot out of the trailer. I wish I could just put wheels on it and roll it off except that the bot is wider than the rear door of the U-Haul. Unless I cut the back panels off and then re-welded them before returning it I have to lift it about four feet before I can manuever at all.

Anyways...I am borrowing a set of extensions and will creep down my side yard to the shop. I hope to power up the computer tonight to see what kind of software is there.

My biggest hope is to be able to take a photo or graphic and give it depth to carve into panels. (One such is the breast cancer ribbon I posted about when my wife was going through chemo.) Some of the photos will be very very "busy" so I am sure it is going to take alot of time making the graphic work as well as carve the wood.

BTW I was thinking my wife was going to go nuts when I brought this home. But she said that after watching me mope and scheme for years it was worth the money. (After she asked how much it cost of course:P)

[MogulTx]

(OOOOOPS. I see you already have a solution! Good for you!)

I'd be real tempted to borrow or rent some machinery moving rollers and set it on those, then put ramps to the back of the trailer and get 4 strong young men to help you roll it off the trailer and into the garage. Furniture dollies are another idea. The rolling trailer jacks from Harbor Freight are yet another.

Check out that board. probably have a blown Zeiner diode or two. Search on posts here on the forum with regard to those. I had to replace a couple on my former machine (4 x 4 PRT).

Once you are up and running, you can start tweaking things the way you want to!

Good luck on it!

Monty

[bleeth]

Pictures don't convert to 3-d carvings directly. There is a way to get a relief based on dark and light areas that looks striking when carved into white or off white acrylic and/or Corian and viewed with a backlight, but to do a relief carved into wood or something from a picture you use the picture as a guide to create vector areas and create your own relief using the tools in the software. Aspire can be used for quite a bit and the next step commonly used around here is Artcam Pro. Big difference in price. When it comes to creating complicated reliefs there is a reason for the difference.
There is a Fab-lab in Sarasota with a bot. You might want to call on them for some friendly in the neighborhood advice. I have their info at my office. If you can't locate them let me know via private message or e-mail and I'll send it to you if you want.

[lex]

So the forklift was dropped off and three hours later was in the shop on moving casters.
(Unfortunately I have a small shop and had lots of thing that had to move.)

Since then I have done some clean up and sorted out the huge knot of wires. Wow are some of them long!

I plan on attaching the control box and VFD controller to the frame. Is there any reason why that would be a problem?

I have three small toolboxes with spindle components. A half dozen collets
of differing sizes, some wrenches, and several parts that I have no idea what they are for. Some look like giant feeler guages, and others are cast corner items.

I have contacted Shopbot for an install tech but will not have time for that for a few more weeks. (Chicago Nascar race next weekend) In the meantime I intend to run a 110V/20A and a 220V/40A line to junction boxes above the machine. I think above the machine would be preferable to running cables across the floor. Any hints on this?

OH the machine is a 2007 PRT/Alpha per shopbot records:)

Next item is prox switches. I do not seem to have any mounted on the machine to set limits. I have alot of different sensors in my Ebay inventory but have no idea what should be used on the bot. I have Turk, Effector, Banner, A-B, Lueze, and a cpl others I can't name offhand. Is there a particular one that suits the bot best? or maybe I should let the install tech pick some?

I have powered up the computer and, though a bit on the slow side, it works fine. The shopbot program had a few issues but they were fixed easily. Artcam pro is on the computer as well but it asks for a security key (Dongle i think) that is not there. All of the part files have been removed except one folder with a contruction firm's signage. That is unfortunate as when I looked up the program on line it looks to be exactly what I am looking for. In one area of the tutorial it takes a bmp and makes it into a relief for carving. (Thats what I want to do!!!)

E-chain....I have some 1.9" and some 1" E-chain in my Ebay stuff as well. Would the 1" be large enough for the carraige and the 1.9 for the machine length? If not I can get more 1.9 but as always >$ = :)

[jerry_stanek]

Check out the Vectric site for their Aspire. You can download th trial version and see if that will work

[Gary Campbell]

Lex...
I will take a stab at a couple.

I would prefer conduit or cables on the floor over in the air. My last 2 machines are this way.

My current machine (assembled by factory) has the VFD and control box mounted to the machine. SB may have a bracket kit for this.

The prox are NPN NO on a PRT, but you may have better luck getting them from SB as they have 10m length and are the proper ones for your machine. Just about anything worked on the old machines, but the newer alphas are more sensitive.

Your echain may work, but seems small to me.

Good Luck

[lex]

I was intending to run the electric in the attic and come out of the ceiling with a junction box above the machine. This would put cables "in the air" though. Do you really prefer conduit on the floor?

Since I am not a business and tight on funds I will make the brackets myself. (Helps that I have acess to a machine shop)

I have alot of normally open proxes but since I don't know the range requirements I will check with Sb for the units. Better safe than sorry in that regard:)

The E-chain seemed small to me as well. So I suppose I will go ahead and get some more. I think I will use 3" for the main and the 1.9 for the bridge.
I intend to just use some aluminum angle for that. Channel would keep the e-chain controlled but I was thinking that it shouldn't need it....

I have looked at the Aspire program. It seems to do alot but also seems more complicated in the import, relief area. I downloaded all of the tutorials and though there was one on the import function with the smudge et all features, the artcam seemed to do it much simpler. (Or perhaps their tutorial just explains it better?)

Since this is my first CNC usage simple is very important:P

[bruce_taylor]

I ran my cables on the floor because it is nice to have the open air for moving sheet goods in and out, but wouldn't make that much difference I guess. I have my vfd on a wall close to the machine easier to see and operate a little higher than the control box on the side of the machine. I have my computer inside but a mouse and monitor at the bot. It can be a lengthy process to get it set up and get comfortable using it, The people on this form are invaluable.

[myxpykalix]

If you are going to run it on the floor i'd suggest you insert it in pvc pipe as opposed to metal conduit. If you ever get a nick in the wire the metal becomes a conductor.

[Brady Watson]

You can make a nice neat bridle of wires off of the back side of the gantry. Zip tie every 18-24" and then secure the bridle to the center point of the machine, creating a loop that will move with the gantry. You'll have to move the gantry from full extent on each side of the X axis to make sure that it makes it all the way without binding etc. The loop will dangle and twist from one side to the other. Just make sure it doesn't get hung up anywhere & it will be fine. E-chain is nice, but not necessary. The rest of the bundle can be run on the floor over to the control box. Make a nice neat loop of wire and let each wire 'spiral out' according to it's length, into the control box - which is ideally located/bolted to the 3X5" crossmember towards the front left most part of the machine.

Sad diagram attached...Showing back of machine.

-B

[lex]

I looked up bots online specifically to see how they are running the cables. Looks pretty easy. the only thing that I am not so sure about is the arch that I see in the cabling. I have an "arch" made out of a piece of lexan material but the ones on line do not seem to have the same thing. (Of course mine is broken so need to get something anyways)

My next issue is going to be the electrical connections. I called the support line and they were very helpful. However, they do not have the electrical drawings for my machine:( One helpfull person did send my some power schematics and the one closest to what I actually have is a "double pole" set up. If I remove the optional items and move the filter to the far right it looks correct compared to the box. None of the VFD connections are made but the M2 line is marked as if to say here is where I was:)

At any rate, I do not have three phase, and don't want it in my little shop. I think that if I rewire from the input to the contactor per a single phase and then do the same for the VFD/spindle it "should" be single phase as the spindle has data plates for both single and three phase.

I have attached a picture of my box.

[lex]

After looking on line I agree with you and will go under the machine rather than over. I don't anticipate putting sheetgoods on my machine as I am actually going to be making small items. But I guess you never know what may come up. (I know the big machine is overkill but it is what it is)

I did find the prox switches. the are very small units! Unfortunately the wires have been cut so I will have to either splice them or replace them. I don't know if they are splic-able yet. I have alot of optical ones that I know can't be spliced so we will see.

[Michael Breedlove]

Just checking to see if you got my email. I am up in Odessa and have an older PRT and would be glad to help. Bill over in Haines City is a genious with these machines and is always willing to help. He got me up and going and I am very indebted to him for his willingness to share. Bill has a spindle and knows the electrical/controls side quite well. Let me know if I can help.
Mike

[myxpykalix]

Expanding on bradys design where the loop comes up to the bottom of the table and attaches i attached a eye hook and then attached the wire bundle with a loose zip tie running thru the eye hook and if for some reason the wire gets bound up the zip tie will break and let the wires just fall loose.

[Brady Watson]

From the looks of your control box, it looks like you have a 1:1 drive Alpha with AS911 motors. You don't need 3-phase unless you have a spindle. The control box itself *should* take 30A of 110v. You would only need 3-phase input to the 2nd set of contactors to turn the 3ph spindle on & off. You can also bypass the control box and run the spindle independently of the control box. Keep in mind that the 2nd set of contactors also can turn off 240v and 110v single phase, but you'll need to find out if they are up to the task of doing that as they may be different between 3ph & 1ph.

The wiring diagrams should be in the pocket on the inside of the control box door. After you get a set, put them back in there.

Older wire guides were black ABS and the newer ones are clear acrylic. I believe that SB still sells a replacement wire guide for your machine.

-B

[lex]

This forum is one of the main reasons I have wanted a SB. You all are so helpful!

I have a clear acrilyc sheet. I guess the reason it was different in the videos was because they were black. Unfortunately it has been broken. On the bright side I work at a facility that uses acrilyc sheet in 10' lengths and can have all the drops I want.

I got an electrical engineer to look at the set of prints I got from SB and got the thumbs up on my plan except where the spindle comes into play. He said that I would have to check my VFD to see if it would run in single phase mode. He cautioned me that running a three phase drive in single phase mode can cause much higher voltage spikes (May be wrong terminology) that could fry the VFD or cut out breakers etc.

Again bright side: I sell alot of used/surpluss industrial equipment and have half a dozen vfds sitting on the shelf. If the one I got doesn't work with single phase one of the others might. The same goes for contactors...

[bleeth]

RE: the VFD and spindle. At an early post you said that it had a "single phase spindle" The spindles will take their power from the VFD and although I didn't notice anywhere that you said specifically what spindle and VFD you had if they were supplied by SB then ensuring your needs is very easy. If it is set up to be run on single phase power then the VFD will be rated for approximately twice the HP than the spindle. Thus if you have a 5HP Columbo spindle and it was set up for single phase power then the VFD will be a 10HP: 2.2 HSD will have a 5HP VFD, etc.

[lex]

Grr I hate when I make a long post and my internet decides I don't need to post it:(
O.K. so the big bundle of wires are neat and zip tied. I added a a U-bolt to the frame and added a climbers type hook for the bundle to hang from. The rest is neat under the table.
The enclosure tabs fit the top and bottom crossmembers so a few holes later it is sucure to the frame. I intend to mount the VFD on top of the enclosure after wiring it up.
But the wiring is where I am stuck.....
The power is going to come from the contactor to "R" and "S" per the Delta VFD manual. The wires from the spindle are what is my issue. They are numbered 1,2,3,5,6,7,8. one two and three I expect to go to T1,T2,T3 respectively. The ground goes to ground of course. That leaves 5 through 8. two have terminal connectors and I am guessing that they are for the fan. I expect that they go to the left hand side above the main incoming power. Which goes to which I have no idea.
The other two are bare and have to go to the terminal strip. One will go to DSM the other to???? again which goes to which???
Anyone have a delta vfd and a columbo spindle that can get me a photo of the VFD connections????

[gundog]

If it were me I would run the wire through the attic to the table location to a junction box then conduit down the wall to the floor and under the table. This is the way I ran mine no exposed wire in the shop.

Mike

[lex]

Attaching some photos.

[gc3]

http://www.kronosrobotics.com/KRMx01/KRMx01Upgrades/DragonCable/dragoncable.shtml

diy cable carrier

[lex]

I got power on the unit today after getting a diagram from Frank at shopbot for the VFD and the closest he could find for the enclosure.
Hooked up the computer and tried to jog it but nada. Reset and still nothing. Tried zeroing the Z axis and again nothing. The shopbot program says it is moving and then after a few seconds says failure.
Tried zeroing all axis and table the shopbot program goes through the actions but no movemen t from the steppers....Any help appraciated.

Lex

[Brady Watson]

Here's a few things that you'll want to do/get:

USB 2.0 self-powered hub. It bolsters comm speed. Plug it into PC - plug bot intp hub.

Make sure USB cable is NO LONGER than 12', preferably 10'.

Upgrade firmware in control box. Use the UI command.

Goto ProgramFiles\Shopbot\Shopbot3\Diagnostics & Run SpeedTest.exe with SB3 CLOSED. Report back what number you get.

If you are running a Dell, I highly suggest installing a PCI to USB expansion card & plug hub & bot into that. Staples et al sells them.

Drive the tool around with the SK command, or just 'k' & arrow keys, plus pgup & pgdn for Z.

-B

[lex]

No I didn't get new insurance:P

Added a usb hub, changed my grounding and it is ALIVE!!!

77% comm and all axis move with jog.
X and Y zero corectly Z says failed after it contacts the zzero plate.

The spindle turns in jog but I haven't gotten it to do anything else yet.

[Brady Watson]

When you touch the Zzero plate to the bit, does it light up reliably?

-B

[lex]

No light when it touched. I looked at the wireing and only two of the four wires in the cable are being used. I assume that it is just a circuit being closed between the large clip on the spindle and the wire attached to the aluminum plate...

[Brady Watson]

There should be 3 wires - black, white & red.

The wire from the plate (most likely black) goes to input 1

The white wire goes to ground

The red wire goes to 5v

Make SURE your machine is grounded to either the electrical system by tagging a wire to any place on the machine (legs, frame etc) and the electrical system.

-B

PS - Make sure your wires all have proper strain relief & that they are nice & neat. Many problems down the line can be avoided by neat, deliberate wiring.

[lex]

Thank you Brady your knowledge is as keen as it is helpful:)

Now I have no problem moving the axis and zeroing/homing etc. Though it kind of bothers me that I have to keep loading the firmware each time I turn it off. I figure that will be a saved setting somewhere and I will find it sooner or later.

The next issue is the spindle controller. Yesterday I could get it to turn very slowly but today the VFD starts out 00.0 and not the 60.0 it should be. Nothing I do will change the setting:(
Any suggestions there?

[Brady Watson]

You should NOT have to load the firmware into the control box every time you turn it on. It should stay put on the board in the control box after it is powered down.

You can pull down the manual for the Delta VFD here (http://www.delta.com.tw/product/em/drive/ac_motor/download/manual/VFD-B_manual_en.pdf) - links to Delta. Follow instructions for programming. Your ShopBot binder should also have instructions for porgramming the VFD. If you don't have it download it from ShopBot (http://www.shopbottools.com/files/SBDocs/SBG00320080916ColomboManual.pdf)

Before you do anything else, hit the Mode button on the VFD 2 times. This will get you into RPM mode. Display will show 0 to 24000 RPM. If you are in the mode I think you are in, you have Hertz displayed. This will read 0 to 400 Hz - which essentially means, 60 Hz = 3600 RPM

-B

[lex]

I Z-zero'd the machine 4 inchas above the table and ran several programs and it ran like a champ!

I also got the shopbot programing for the VFD and had no problem re-installing them and controlling the spindle speed.

But....I still have to load the driver everytime I power up. I am hoping that this is in the installed program somewhere and it will sort itself out when I get my new computer and download the latest SB program.

And....I can't get the broken bit out of the chuck. The chuck has an indention at intervals around it that I assumed a special tool fits to open. I didn't want to use vice grips or a pipe wrench so I did some searching here on the forums and found that it "should be" an ER25 nut. I found some ER25 spanners on Ebay and have two different ones on the way. Hopefully someone can confirm (or tell me how to confirm) that it is in fact an ER25.

On the bright side; I sold more stuff on Ebay and had enough money to both buy Aspire 3.0 with both sets of cut and carves, and a new computer!

The comp is prolly way overkill for Aspire but since I will use it for gaming as well, I figure the faster the better.

Also anyone is in the market for a new computer..I did alot of custom computer research and found cyberpowerpc dot com to be the lowest price with the higher end computers. I also found a code online that gave me 15% off: SPRING0410

Lex

[Brady Watson]

When you finally get that collet out of the spindle taper, throw it in the trash. It is shot. Use vice grips on the collet & the spindle wrench on the shaft of the spindle.

Your ER25 spec collet is meant to twist into the nut so that it is captive & you should be able to hold the collet with the nut attached without it falling off. Don't feel bad...many new users have done this - including me, 10 yrs ago...

Also, order your replacement ER25 collets from ShopBot or PDS ONLY - DO NOT price shop this one. It is IMPERATIVE that you get fractional size specific collets and NOT E.G. - 1/2-13mm or 3/8-10mm "combo collets", as you will definitely have to cut the collet nut off of the spindle because you run out of thread before you can fully compress the collet. A word to the wise is sufficient...

Congratulations on your new machine.

-B

[jerry_stanek]

Get a er wrench you need a regular wrench and the special ER wrench.

[lex]

I have an ER25 wrench that goes about 2/3 around the nut with 4 pins and a single pin interferance type wrench as well as the top holding wrench...$27 for all three.

The current nut looks to be in good condition but during my first attempt at moving the machine under power I used a -5" instead of a +5" on the Z (or vice versa) and broke the bit as it moved into the spoil board and indexed. hopefully I don't have to buy another yet.

Although...Is there a different type that would make changing bits easier? Or should I have a couple for faster changes?

Also, I have a bunch of taperlocks that came with the machine. But I do not think they are for the machine.

[adrianm]

Also anyone is in the market for a new computer..I did alot of custom computer research and found cyberpowerpc dot com to be the lowest price with the higher end computers.

Good choice. I use a Cyberpower PC as my main Aspire (and gaming!) machine.

[bill.young]

Here's a short youtube video showing how a spindle collet snaps into the nut...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gMezORPi8M

[lex]

Not sure what the feeler gauge pieces are. The corners look to be some type of hold down. L pegs maybe a stop? I think the taperlocks are from another cnc with auto-changer. Bearings maybe replacements for the spindle...maybe not. The two collets look like the only useful items for my machine. Anyone have a better clue?

[gc3]

look like spindles, rub collars and hold down parts for a shaper...my guess is woodtek or grizzly

[lex]

Well I got my er25 wrenches in today and they are way big for my spindle. So what other sizes of columbo spindle colars are used? 2.2-3hp spindle 220 single phase.

Also I took the old bit out with a 15/16 wrench and a pair of channel locks with a cloth between it and the collar. Put in a roto zip bit and did the 8" grapes and 4" bear paw coaster. It worked well in the junk pine I used as a test piece but wrong bits made it look pretty poor. (as expected)

I have to say....this is fun.

[gc3]

has to be er16 for yours

http://www.maritool.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=er+16+nut

[lex]

Ordered a wrench. Hopefully its right:)

[lex]

So I ordered some bits from the Beckwith Decor, but couldn't wait to try the machine out. So I had a cheapo Vermont American left handed drill bit that just happened to be 1/4".

Put it into the spindle and clamped a piece of junk ply to the table.
Setting the spindle to 19K and ran the rooster that was in the SB program...An hour later this was the result:P

[gc3]

you're on your way!

[garyb]

Lex the 3hp Colombo usually has the ER25 mini nut which takes the smaller ER25 M-Type Wrench
Gary

[lex]

More than one size with one number.....ouch talk about confusion. (Not that I need any more confusion)