door panel shrinkage

[cip]

I recently stained a set of raised panel maple doors in my shop which is not air conditioned. After installation in an air conditioned home the center panels shrank to revel an unstained edge around the panel. Any suggestions on how to resolve this problem in future work.

Mike

[cabnet636]

use a q tip and restain it, unfortuantly we have to move the panel a bit during staining as it is all good and tight when new and it does not take a lot of wood movement to cause it

[gc3]

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Minimizing_TellTale_UnStained_Lines.html

[cip]

Thanks James but I have already fixed the problem, I was looking for a way to stop the problem in future jobs

Mike

[cip]

Gene: Good article, thanks, I read it before and it doesn't have any real answers to correct the issue.
Mike

[cabnet636]

26 years and i have made, and purchased doors from all the best suppliers, have yet to find a perfect cure (its wood) let us know what you find !!

there are a plenty wanting this !!

[srwtlc]

As stated in that article, cope and stick cutters that have the inside edge eased (slight roundover), aid in drawing the stain in further. Space balls to allow the movement to be equalized. Pre-stain the panel edges and then put them together (yeah, it's a pain, but....).

[cip]

Thanks for the input guys. I have done lots of door in my life but this is the first time I've had this problem. I buy my doors so I don't have a lot of control over the manufacturing process.

I guess there is no hard and fast answer but I will keep looking.

Maybe I'll try a dehumidifier in the shop to shrink the doors before staining.

Mike

[gerryv]

Hi Scott,
The name suggests the purpose for sure but could you expand a bit on the space balls please? What kind of supply house would carry them?
Thanks much,
Gerry

[cabnet636]

http://www.spaceballs.com/

[Gary Campbell]

Mike...
The problem is that the moisture content of your lumber is most likely at or over 10% when you assemble the doors. I fought this a lot in the Keys, as most hardwood storage in S FL is unconditioned.

You should "stick" the lumber with a moisture meter prior to assembly. If higher than 7.5% then prestain the edges of the panels up to the face. On our high end jobs we prestained and finished the panels prior to door assembly. This of course adds to time and cost, but eliminates combacks.

Note: I have used spaceballs in the past, but found that they did little to enhance the finish product, nor did they solve any of the problems we were having. They do keep the rattle down in loose fitting panels, though.

The best solution is assembly with proper MC, which will be hard for you in WPB.

[john_hartman]

Up until about a year ago I built every 5-piece door in house. To deal with this I would quickly pre-stain or pre-paint perimeter edge of the center panel before assembly.

Now that I have my doors made I deal with this problem by using a syringe used to fill printer ink cartridges. This syringe has a very thin but ridge metal "needle" about 1/16" in diameter. I inject a very thin bead of stain into the panel/rail-stile seem.

I spray stain without any wiping so its important not to get stain drips else where on the door. This obviously takes more time but it certain
eliminates any call backs.

[srwtlc]

Gerald,

The link James provided pretty much explains it. I get mine here...

http://hdlusa.com/catalog.cfm?GroupID=Fasteners%20%26%20Screws&CatID=Raised%20Panel%20Spacers&showprod=1

...they're kind of oblong instead of round, but serve the same purpose. They come in different diameters and softness for various cope and stick cutters.

[gc3]

fabricate panel 5/16" smaller than rail to avoid excessive squeeze of the ball or you will get a bleeding effect from the ball

[cip]

Gary, I buy my doors so I can't control the moisture content at assembly or stain ahead of assembly. So, with that in mind, at what moisture content point would you consider it safe to stain to avoid the large shrink problem.

Mike

[gc3]

Gary, I buy my doors so I can't control the moisture content at assembly or stain ahead of assembly. So, with that in mind, at what moisture content point would you consider it safe to stain to avoid the large shrink problem.

Mike

8% MC is ideal

[Gary Campbell]

Mike...
Look at these:

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/A_Finish_Carpenters_Guide_to_Understanding.html

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Eliminating_Wood_Problems.html

Most AC'ed FL will have a ambient humidity of 35-45% (much higher than winter in the north) so I used 8% as my target MC. Most products stored in 80+ degrees and 80%+ humidity will have a MC of 12%+

Good Luck... its a battle

[bleeth]

Back when I did build a lot of my own cope and stick doors I found space balls to be a pain in the neck. I switched to foam insulating tape and it was much easier. The shrinkage problem is a tough one when using premade doors. You must have the MC low to start with when finishing. The problem even with squirting or oozing stain into the space is that if the panel does shrink in the frame the stained edge will still not look like the rest since it has not been top-coated.

[cip]

Thanks guys, I think I got what I needed.

Mike

[feinddj]

When I used to work at a custom cabinet shop the answer was to stain, spray and finish the outside edge of the panel after it had been routed. Once the door had been assembled it was run through a wide belt sander to level the joints. it then went to the spray booth and was stained and finished. Its a lot of work but call backs are even more expensive in money and reputation.

David

[tgm]

A few facts of life are that wood moves and concrete cracks and you can't completely stop either one.
When we do frame and panel work we pre-stain the edges as mentioned above prior to assy. When that can't be done you try and lower the humidity to allow the panel to shrink slightly prior to staining. If you could time the building of the doors to the winter time they are the smallest they are going to be and wil swell in the other seasons eliminating the line.
If you purchase doors, as all of us have at one time, you area at the mercy of the wood and the seasons.
You can touchup as required once it shrinks but other than that there is no exact, permanent solution.

Good Luck,

Tom in PA

[gerryv]

Newbie question: Would it be correct to assume that going with somewhat wider stiles and thus, narrower panels, would help to reduce the problem, although I'm sure there would be a point where aesthetics would come into play. I'm assuming that's why full size doors have side by side panels.

[kevin]

Two cents
Tell the customer that wood can shrink there might be a white line .Its not lost reputation its imposible to stop wood movement

Most times when install in the winter the wood has shrink so we dont have an issue .When we install in the summer the doors are at the highest or widest.I just send some one with a touch it up with a brush .The ood thing is some doors need it some don't

The tip I will share to make it less notibale .Is that I use water based polythurane when the panel moves it streches with the wood

Laquer is brittle and leaves a white line or ridge .The ridge sticks out like a sore thumb

Here its more brutle a lot of electric heat sometimes we heat in June

[wberminio]

I have taken Kevin's approach.
Letting the client ahead of time has been extremely helpful.
There are no surprises for the client

[Allen Wagner]

Try staining the panels before you assemble the doors.

[gc3]

Newbie question: Would it be correct to assume that going with somewhat wider stiles and thus, narrower panels, would help to reduce the problem, although I'm sure there would be a point where aesthetics would come into play. I'm assuming that's why full size doors have side by side panels.

no, that will not solve the problem. if you do not allow movement for the panel the door could possible break at the stile/rail joint. woodweb has a formula based on rh/specie/thickness which is very helpful

[gerryv]

Thanks much Jim & Scott