un happy customer.

[coach]

I finished a couple custom cabinets and the guys installed them. The customer paid then called and wanted some repairs done. He said hinge screws don't fit flush (euro frameless hinge plate) I didn't fill and sand the joint on top of the shaker style doors. (duh) He asked me to take back to shop and give another coat of paint. (Painted soft maple shaker style doors.) We un-installed and I worked on it for a few hours doing away with the sanding marks he could detect with his flashlight. (400 grit)
That evening the contractor informed me they don't want the cabinets.
The customer stopped payment on the check.
Does anyone have suggestions how to fight this? I have a lot of hours in these 2 cabinets, very custom.
Thanks for any advice, Dave

[gerryv]

David, With a little luck, if you happen have a recorded message from him on your answering service specifically asking for you to repair (rather than take back) that would likely be important as it implies he's retaining and, more importantly, accepting ownership. Also, if he told your installers (hopefully more than one) that it was a repair type issue that would be good too.

Just some thoughts on the legal "game."

[gc3]

Take the cabinets back. It sounds like you will never be able to please this client. I would have a long talk with the contractor....

Forget about it and move on to the next job...the legal hassle just will not be worth it.

Can you post some photos of the cabs?

[feinddj]

Stopping a check has certain legal implications. Check with your bank. You can take them to small claims and get, if I remember right up to three times the amount in damages.

That said, if you know a lawyer, (s)he might write a note on your behalf to the client. Few people want that hassle. It moves most people.

It may come down to how much hassle you want to endure. If nothing else, remove the rest of your work as soon as you can.

[gene]

be glad that this only happens only once in a while. i was fired from a job last year because i couldnt satisfy this client . second time in 31 years . left that job to start another the next day and the new client loved all i did. some people would complain if you hung them with a new rope. ya cant win them all.

[gc3]

some people would complain if you hung them with a new rope. ya cant win them all.



well said!!!

[michael_schwartz]

I would make it very clear that you do not accept returns on custom work and that you intend to fix under warranty any defects, or deficiencies that are within the scope of the original contract. If he was so dissatisfied why did he write you a check for the final payment in the first place.It sounds to me like he found what he perceives to be a better deal or he changed his mind and wants something completely different. If you had a contract, and he did write you a check for a final payment it is probably still worthwhile trying to collect a payment in this situation. If your contract states any specific terms related to cancelation I would remind him of those as well.

Your a manufacturer whom they placed an order with for a custom product. They can't just decide to fire you and not pay you for work that has already been done.

They need to give you a chance to fix the cabinets. Have they been in to inspect them after you took them back to work on them?

[myxpykalix]

David,
Sometimes you will never get ahead being a "nice guy". Let me assure you i know the law in this respect when i give you this advice.

First thing I would do is go down and get a "warrant in debt" on him. Then while I was there file a mechanics lein on his property. He has committed fraud by deception in getting you to make and install them then stopping payment thereby giving you a fraudulent check. He does not by law have the option to stop payment on the check after the work was completed. If he had an issue with minor problems and was not satisfied with the product he had the option to inspect them prior to installation.

Even if he discovered something after the installation and you made a secondary effort to please him he doesn't have the option to stop payment. If he is not satisfied after a second effort he has the right to take you to court to get satisfaction.

Many times people do this so that people like you (the workman) will throw up his hands and walk away or discount them.

You have a right to file the mechanics lein on his property. If you go to court and get a judgement and he refuses to pay you can file with the mechanics lein a "satisfaction of lein" (not exact term) and they would then put his house up for auction to satisfy the debt.

That is a bit extreme and the first mortgage holder would fight it and this is the extreme but it can be done.

The bottom line is this is a very basic and simple procedure. Go to the courthouse and they will give you the form for a warrant, probably cost you $50.00 to file. Same thing with the mechanics lein. It will take all of 5 minutes to do. It's not complicated.

Then you need to take copies of both and mail them to him in a certified letter along with a demand letter for payment. If you need help wording a letter i'll be glad to help you(I'm not a lawyer, but i played on on t.v):D

At this point DO NOT go and uninstall them. Leve them at his residence so he retains custody and control of them.

Some here have advocated just letting it go, and i understand that and don't criticise that advice but you have to ask yourself, if you do just go get them who losses out...? YOU!

Just the threat of all this action usually gets people to pay up. Add the cost of the warrant fees to the bill also.

So just "grow a pair" :eek:and do what i told you do and you will come out on top.:D lol
If you need advice for legal statutes (depending on what state you live in) I can point you to the right place and if you need advice on wording just email me.....GOOD LUCK!

[sawkerf]

David, Jack is right. Just four weeks ago I had a similar situation where the customer refused to pay the balance due after I "fixed" things that were "wrong" when in fact the work was completed just as promised. The lady was out of town during installation and she just realized that what she thought she wanted didn't work the way she thought it would and she over spent on other things and needed to trim her spending. For the first few weeks I was very cordial in my communications. they continued to manufacture more issues to contend. Only after I promised to file a Mechanics lien did they pay up. I would be careful about removing your work without permission, the law is not on your side on that one in most states. Do not cave! If it's worth it financially to you, get your money!

[michael_schwartz]

People will arbitrarily decide they don't like the look of wood grain, something is too dark, or they will come up with some other silly reason. They may also decide they were not able to afford something in the first place.

Beware of people looking for excuse to get out of their contractual obligations.

[jerry_stanek]

Jack may be right but every state has different lein laws I went through this in Ohio and West Virginia.

[kevin]

Gene is right walk away .I know it hurts your pride

They can counter sue for damage to wall and lets say you necked an elecrtical wire or pluming.Its a small job

I hope you recevied a down payment .Sell the doors down the road break even and use it as learning experince

Its important to always get a down payment .I had a couple order a wall unit they loved the unit but color .I sprayed it again then she was still not happy .I told here I would sell the unit and give back there deposit .They took delevery .
Try to never let your work leave unless its apporved period.
Use this a an chance to fine tune contracts .Take Jacks offer me get an iron clad quote .I''ll take one 2 Example" Wood is a living breathing product that has different grain from board to board that can not be controled ...................................":cool:

Be in control or you'll be closing your door

[tgm]

This situation happens to everyone in this business, sooner or later. After 27yrs. I still get wary of residential customers who 'don't like the sheen on the cabinets when the moon is full at a certain viewing angle' BS. ( yes I did have a situation like that)

This sceanrio lends credence to getting that 50% downpayment at time of order and then most of the remainder upon delivery, not installation.

Once it's installed, the ball game changes in favor of the client.

Try going to Lowes and order something custom...it's 100% upfront, period. None of this waiting till it comes in so I can see it ****.

If you get the proper downpayment and then most of the remainder when you deliver, you can afford to walk away when an issue like this arises.

Most often it will not as the customer is commited at that point, money wise, and will usually not complain.

Good Luck,

Tom in PA

[bob_reda]

Spend the 100 dollars and sit down with an attorney for an hour. In some states, once the cabinets are hung it becomes real property of the house, sort of like a furnance. If they refuse to pay you cannot go take it out. They can get you for breaking and entering and a whole bunch of other stuff. The mechanics lien is the way to go, if nothing else it will stay with the house until they want to go sell it and have to clear it up. Also, if you did it for a contractor he is responsible to you, not the homewoner, you may need to place one on him(her) also. Just my .30cents worth.

Bob

[meatbal80]

"That evening the contractor informed me they don't want the cabinets."

If there is general on the job especially one that you have worked with before send them the bill. Generals should not be able to just pass the buck when their clients have a problem with one of the subs. This habbit that society is developing where the consumer does not have to be held to their side of the deal/contract is getting out of control. If you can fight this as hard as you can but you are a business so make sure the juice is worth the squeez.

[richards]

Remember "word of mouth" advertising can sink a business. A customer that is not satisfied, no matter whose fault it is, is going to tell a lot of people about you. You can be sure that he won't have anything good to say.

I vote with those who suggested you just walk away from that job and use it as a "learning experience" to screen customers in the future.

[cip]

Mike you can screen customers till the cows come home but you never really know for sure till the end.

I agree with the legal action stuff. Check fraud is check fraud. And bad faith is bad faith. If the contractor hired you it's his responsibility to pay you.

My $.02

Mike

[bleeth]

Guys:

Note that Dave said he uninstalled and then got the call that the client didn't want them. They are not in the home so he may be out of luck on a mechanics lien. He may have been introduced by the GC but he was paid direct by the client. He is at the mercy of the terms of the original agreement at this point. Since the client does not have the cabinets he may not be able to have the state go after the client on the check issue, but generally in Florida you can get the state (local prosecutors office) to enforce check payment.
If his original sales agreement, signed by the client, doesn't spell out that custom furniture, once built, must be paid for his position is pretty weak legally. This is Florida and "implied agreements" will go nowhere and "oral agreements" not a lot further. That being said if he sues the guy in small claims they will push it into arbitration. Good photo's of the unit could very well get the arbitrator to convince the owner to pony up.

The lesson is to have the terms of the agreement on your proposal. Standard language spelling out financial responsibility and terms of settlement in case of dispute are must-haves. Enforceable language that protects you is available all over the internet.

[kevin]

Anybody whos deal with the public will tell you to walk away

The problem with the law it has nothing to do if your right

My PAYMENT terms IS 40 per cent on deposit 40 per
cent on approval of color when cabinets are built 20 per cent after install.Sometimes on small jobs 50 50

Where busy 365 days a year never let a client set the payment terms or run the project

Good luck

[Brady Watson]

...

That evening the contractor informed me they don't want the cabinets.

The customer stopped payment on the check....

No to be all 'Captain Obvious' here, but...Have you had a conversation, in person, with the customer? That would go a LONG way towards resolution. I personally hate the automatic litigious nature of our society & prefer to meet with the customer face to face, with the idea of resolution, and possibly 'win-win' as an outcome. A conversation about the facts, with empathy towards his point of view, and letting him understand your point of view, is quite simply the path of least resistance.

People are people. Just go & clean it up. It really can be that simple.

-B

[gerryv]

Good point Brady.

[myxpykalix]

"make sure the juice is worth the squeez" I love that:D

Regarding customers giving you a bad rap to others...Even if you gave them the cabinets for free they will talk bad about you so you are in a no win situation when it comes to them talking about you, so why lose money, workmanship and reputation?

What it will do is send a message to your General contractor that you are not going to be the one left holding the bag. If anyone should suffer the GC should, you performed your end.

[bruce_taylor]

Sorry you got a bad one, the law is pretty straight forward in florida, bad check equals three times the face amount in treble damages,plus your attorney fees and court costs. You take a bit of a gamble but you'll end up in mediation first.
I have had a situation like this and the outcome was favorable for me. When they see the amount of the lawsuit at 3 times the cost of the check plus cost that will get there attention. People think they can run all over you they will. With no record of them giving you any notice in writing this puts them in a bad place in the eyes of the court. Document everything and send them a certified
letter stating your intentions and stick by your guns. Litigation is not fun and I try to avoid it, but the courts are it place for us and we need to use them when we have issues like this,Just part of being in business. Hopefully you had a written contract to help in court. GOOD LUCK!!! PM me who they are so I don't get stung too!

[wberminio]

In 25 years plus in business-the few times i couldn't resolve an issue was when the client refused to speak to me( only happened twice.)

Ligation might be worth it -Do you have the time and $$?

Might be time to bight the bullet and move on.
This client will never be happy.

[daski]

It's bad situations that lead to new lines in a contract. Try to talk it out with the client. If that doesn't work sue them, and leave it to a judge to decide if the cabinets are good enough. Now polish your contract and learn from this... everyone!!!

[myxpykalix]

david,
What's the update on the situation?:confused: