Lost Comm

[Tim Summerer]

Well, I'm reaching my whits end. We run two shopbots at my shop and one of them is driving me insane.

It keeps losing communication. When I get it back online, the location is off. I know this is a common problem, and I've done a fair amount of reading in the forums. Wondering if anyone has any new ideas. I have a call in to tech support, waiting to hear back.

Here's what I have:
PRT Standard 60x144
RBK control box (bought new a few months ago)
New HP comuputer - minimal extra software. Good specs. Windows 7
Latest version of Shopbot software

Here's what I've done so far:
-Improved grounding- i have grounding wires attached to the x,y, and z axes. The wire goes to the control box ground.
-Updated firmware
-New USB cord
-Cables are not bundled together, USB is not near any other cord
-Cleaned interior of computer, built a dust proof box for it
-Tried a different computer
-My dust collector piping hangs from the steel frame of our building with metal wire. We have about 8' of flex tubing that goes down to the router. I attached the metal wire of this flex tubing to the metal support wire (which ought to go to ground, right?)

Some symptoms (or lack thereof)
-Doesn't seem to be triggered by other machinery starting up
-Doesn't seem to be triggered by long files (drops even while doing simple commands [mh, mx__, etc])
-After the error message and the software automatically quits, I cant restart the software. When I open task manager, sb3 is running in 'processes'. It is taking up 300k-400k memory. I have to force end this process before I can open Shopbot again.
-Machine will sometimes run for days without problems, or today it won't go an hour



That's all I can think of right now. I ordered a new USB card (can't find one with PCI Express locally). I had read that sometimes a separate card worked better. I had all my hopes riding on that. Today, however, I tried running the machine off my laptop. Had the same issue. So I'm no longer convinced that the problem is with the computer hardware.

We are using a new computer, and most of our issues have come since we switched. This computer is running Windows 7. Has anyone else had issues with this? Our old one was XP and it ran fine.

Phew. Time to go have a snack (or a drink). Any help is GREATLY appreciated. My company can't afford to have this machine down for long.

[paul_z]

Tim,

1. It could be a loose or slowly corroding connection. While doing an air cut, move the cables by hand to see if you can make the problem occur a couple of times.

2. The USB connectors are sliding, "self cleaning" connectors. Excellent for things that are plugged and unplugged often; not so good for things that are left plugged in for long periods of time. With the machine off, plug and unplug the usb connectors several times.

3. While doing an air cut, whack the controller box (but not as hard as you may want to at this point). Screw connections can loosen up with repeated thermal cycles.

4. If you cutter is a brushed motor, the brushes may be going bad slowly and causing ever increasing noise. Even a 3phase motor controller could be going bad. Try an air cut without the cutter running.

5. Look for anything out of the ordinary such as the zz plate being in a different place. I keep my grounding clip on the zz plate because I crashed my machine once with a static discharge on the ungrounded zz plate.

That's all I can think of,

Paul Z

[Brady Watson]

Make sure your hardware is up to snuff. A 'new' computer doesn't mean that it is up to the task of running a CNC. Here's what I would suggest for anyone having these issues:

1) Install a PCI to USB expansion card that plugs into the motherboard.

2) Plug in a USB 2.0 self-powered hub into the expansion card.

3) Plug SB into hub.

-B

[Tim Summerer]

Well I tried your advice Paul and Brady

- Did a few long air cuts and wiggled the cords - no issues
- Tapped on the box (it's awfully solid, but I tried anyways) - no issues
- Replaced the router - no change, still issues
- Haven't tried the Z plate yet, but I have never seen the Input light come on unexpectedly - I may try grounding it tomorrow
- Bought a new USB expansion card - still issues
- Hooked up a powered USB hub - still issues
- Bought a Power Conditioner (for the chance that there was stray RFI somewhere in the power line) - still issues
- Removed the Wi-Fi card - still issues

Our new computer had been running 64 bit Windows 7. I was worried that maybe there was a compatibility issue somewhere in the software or the drivers. So I went and pulled my old PC out of storage. It has fine specs and Windows XP. Still having issues! I really thought that a different computer with a proven OS would work, but there has been no luck.

I've been talking with SB tech support, and they've had me try a few things (measure voltage in the control box, remove wi-fi card, update firmware, etc). I will call them again in the morning and see if they have any new ideas.

Thanks for the advice so far. If anyone thinks of something else to try, I'll give it a shot :)

[fsrdoug]

Tim
I have been having the exact same problem for 4 weeks now. It started with my old computer running XP64 Pro. Losing comm then program freezes or crashes and always leftover characters in receiver buffer.

Reloaded software and firmware, kept losing comm
Put on 7, no change.
Added PCI USB card,same, same.
Stripped OS per Black Viper, same thing
New USB hub and cable, no change.
Tried my old laptop that ran it for 3 years, no good.
Did the grounding thing, still losing comm.
Stripped all the electronics and cabling down and put it back togeather, no luck.
Talked to Frank, I had already done everything he could think of.
Talked to Ryan, same result.
Stripped the electronics and cabling down again and I mean stripped it down.

I am about to pull my hair out. If you figure this out please let me know.
PRS Standard 9648 with black computer case for control box.
Well it was. I changed the case too!

Doug Dodd:(
FSR Custom WoodWorks

[signsbyjay]

Tim,

Sounds like a grounding problem to me. I have a lot of experience with this, both with my shopbot and in a past employment situation. I am available today (also in Tulsa) if you would like to contact me and I will be happy to look at your grounding.


Jay

[Brady Watson]

Tim & Doug - have you considered sending your control board to SB for evaluation? It could be that something is wrong with it. As long as your ZZero plate is not touching ground, the light should not be on. Just a thought & something to consider & ask about when you call tech support.

-B

[dana_swift]

Tim- you said you are running Windows 7 which even "unloaded" is LOADED with **** all running hidden in the background.

Gary Campbell recently suggested Black Viper as a good site to check for a list of system "services" you dont need. Get rid of everything except true essentials. I looked up Black Viper when I had some comm troubles with a new bot running Windows 7 and sure enough the problem went away.

Turn off networking, screen savers, etc. I bet your problem goes away.

I bet messing with you grounds will only be good for the copper salesman.

Grounds matter, but much superstition goes with the topic. As a practicing electrical engineer for over 40 years, problems are rarely traced to ground. When good test equipment is used to find what the problem actually is.

My money is on unnecessary Microsoft bloatware.

D

[curtiss]

Have you tried to switch the computer to the other Shopbot to see if the problem follows ?

[fsrdoug]

Brady
Installed new USB card, powered hub and cables.

Jay
Did the grounding thing.

Dana and Curtiss
Stripped the OS per Black Viper and tried my laptop that ran the bot with no problems for 3 years with stripped XP Pro

Keep up the good suggestions. They can only help.

Thanks
Doug Dodd
FSR Custom WoodWorks

[adrianm]

When running the link speed test does it always complete or does it drop out occassionaly and what rate does it show?

[fsrdoug]

I get between 74.5 and 78.6 and sometimes low 80's, always less then 81%. Loop test runs 86 to 88%.

Doug Dodd

[Tim Summerer]

Well we've been running our router for a day and a half now with no comm errors! Hurray!

A million thanks to Jay Nicolaides for coming out here and pointing me in the right direction

There are 2 facts that I failed to mention in my earlier posts. One, we are cutting Trupan MDF all day - as some of you may know, this produces lots of static electricity. Two, we recently had a very dramatic weather shift here in Tulsa - it went from hot and very muggy, to comfortable and quite dry. Together these two factors really convinced Jay that I was having grounding issues.

Several weeks ago, I had an electrician come out and look at our situation, I explained to him that we were having comm problems and that they were likely caused by poor ground. He checked on things and told us that everything was grounded fine. Then he was gone. But the issues were not.

Per Jay's advice, I went all out with grounding. I previously had my dust collection tubing grounded to the metal frame of my building. Also, I was relying on the outer metal spiral of the flex tube to dissipate charge. Now, however, I have a 12 gauge bare copper wire running inside the tubing from my dust boot to the DC, to the ground of the DC (mine has a grounding screw near the on/off switch), then all the way to the outside grounding rod.

Next, I ran a wire to the router. I had previously purchased a Monster power conditioner - it didn't solve our comm problems, but it does have a grounding screw. My computer and my control box are plugged in to the conditioner. My router is grounded to the ground strip in the control box. SOOOO grounding the conditioner grounded my router, control box, and computer. The copper grounding wire joins up with the one from the DC and they go outside to the grounding rod.

Finally, and this may sound slightly absurd, but for right now while it has been so dry, I'm 'watering' my ground rod. A couple times a day, I go dump a glass of water on it. Maybe this is useful, maybe it's overkill. Maybe when I get production caught up again I'll quit doing it, but for now since we're behind I'm not taking any chances.

So what did I learn. Well, there's nothing new under the sun. Looking through various troubleshooting posts, I think the solution is rarely something novel or unique. Often times the person with the problem knew the solution, they just hadn't tried it yet. I knew about grounding, I knew that running a wire IN the ducting would probably be better, I felt like the electrician didn't do an excellent job for me, I knew it had been dry and that MDF causes static, but I guess I just needed someone to tell me with confidence that if I try A,B,and C that things will work.

I appreciate all the help and advice. Jay, thanks so much for coming to my shop and looking at our setup. Thanks again everyone. Please let me know if you have any other questions or comments.

[paul_z]

Congratulations!!

I have never liked the idea of using the spiral wire in flex hose for a ground. If I calculated it correctly, the spiral of 4 feet of 4" flex tubing is an inductor of about 300 nano Henries (which is quite a bit). It may make problems worse than no ground at all. I use bare wire in the hose. I have maybe one comms issue every two months and maybe one clog per year.

Paul Z

[jimboy]

Tim,
I just finished with the problem on a Buddy Alpha running 7. Which version are you using? If it is ultimate, change Compatibility mode to Vista Service pack 2. It worked for us.
Jim

[fsrdoug]

I think I finally got things worked out today. Yesterday I took Jim's advice and changed the compatibility mode. I set mine at XP service pack 2 and it hasn't had a comm problem since.
Thanks to everyone for the advice you offered. You were all a great help.

Doug Dodd:)
FSR Custom WoodWorks