two-sided sign pricing

[jim shula]

Just wondering what others do to price a two-sided sign. If you charge x dollars per square foot for a sign, do you double the cost for a two sided sign, or discount it a little because of the redundancy?

[jimboy]

Design time + Setup time + Material cost + Machine time + Finishing time + Profit margin = My finished price.
I may discount if I must to get the job.
Jim

[magic]

And unfortunately all the considerations, James stated above, take time and experience to estimate.

[jim shula]

That's why I asked the question. I don't have the experience, and thought I might gain some perspective from those who do. Having been in the home remodeling field for 25 years, I am all too familiar with estimating jobs. Having sold a handful of business signs, I'm getting a knack for how long it takes to make one. I'll figure it out myself as I gain experience, but thought it would be interesting to hear how other people approach it.

[jimboy]

You just never know what will go wrong. I figure my variables as best I can and add in the constants. Then add a profit for the shop and a little padding for the unseen. You can start using cut file time estimates from your design software and work from there as you gain experience.
James

[sneakers]

I cut many signs for sign shops in my area. I am kind of a sub sub contractor. When I cut 2d signs I charge by the square foot but for 3d signs I charge by the hour. For double sided signs since I don't do the finish work and I don't supply the material I charge exactly the same for side 2 as it is the same amount of work for each side. If I were finishing the sign and supplying the material the I would just subtract the cost of the material to do the second side. The cutting and finishing and routing is the same so the cost is the same.

Hope this helps
Gary

[GlenP]

Generally price for second side is add 75% to cost of single. THe fact that you have the no design time for the second side as it is the same as first side. Material will change slightly (more) as you will probably need thicker material to accomadate cutting into the second side. Pricing is different for guys as per what your area will pay and costs. Some areas you can get $125 /sqft for single sided and some areas you can't get $75 / sqft. Price will also depned on competition and how bad you need the work. Be careful if you start pricing too cheap it is hard to put price up later. You MUST know what it takes for you to machine or produce signs in your shop. If you don'y you are going to be guessing and shotting from the hip on price for ever and probably eventually give up due to not making money. Cut some samples to find out how long it takes you and your machine to do a sign. Write it up as a actual order and keep track of your time for the whole process, form design to final painting. You have now practised your technique and have a sample to give away or hang in the shop.

[jimboy]

These are all excellent answers.
Jim

[michael_schwartz]

If a project is going to take more than an hour or two I generally figure costs by my hourly rate in 1/2 day increments plus materials. Don't forget to add some profit to that figure as well. Profit is great motivation to do a first rate job while providing excellent customer service. Without it you might as well go work by the hour for somebody else.

I generally do not disclose my hourly rate, and I consider that to be confidential The reason being is that that my shop rate is derived from my salary plus my hourly cost of doing business so it may appear high to somebody who is not in business themselves. The last thing you want to do is offend somebody when they see how you are charging a couple of times what they make. Especially when you are young in comparison. Its also important to keep your business costs which includes labor separate from profit.

[meatbal80]

To add to what others have said, if you find yourself explaining how you came up with your price you have lost. In my experience I gave more information than what was needed and they started trying to mess with my numbers or they are looking to beat me up on price. When i have taken jobs where i was beat up on price it seams that i end up kicking myself for it later.

[joe]

There is a general price range for this kind of signage and it ranges from $100 to $150 a square foot. The differance between the prices has to do with the complexity of the work. Your second side is 75%.

My shop is open to everyone. I envite my competition to see what I'm doing and I share my prices on any project. I envite walk throughs of the shop. There isn't any technique I won't share and I love discusions about priceing and costs. I've built my business around this philosophy.

You need to loose some prospective customers if your going to stay in business. There is no future in being the lowest bidder. Too many CNC folks price this work way too low and that becomes a never ending problem.

Good luck with your project

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

[jimboy]

Joe those are words of wisdom.
Jim

[dakers]

I have attached one i am going to be doing. our price was $2,400. other bids were $1,200. and $1,600.
we will be high bidder and get job but i think it is worth $3,000 plus.

no gold leaf. 3'' thick with pvc and threaded rod pocketed in between the 1.5'' sheets. hanging bracket. auto paint. buy a 3d file for $25. for logo which will be painted. the border will be routed with wood grain file. there will be 4 levels.

so it has been hard to get the committee to understand why we are higher.
i had to go to a meeting.
they were nice but i have about a day in it so far.
i am not too methodical with pricing and sometimes when we price things the customer has alot of questions like this one where you have to bring sketches and talk to committee and have 20 emails going back and forth on all details. so it is not easy but not as hard as working in coal mine or washing dishes all day. i wish i could charge as much as i think it is worth each time and get the job. the size is 3x5ft

[joewino]

Your price is slightly lower than I would have charged, but you're in the ball park - much better than your competition is bidding.

We all deal with the same problem, and the result is usually losing the job and then having the client complain about the poor quality of the work they received.

Dealing with churches, home owners associations and other groups that work through a committee is a head ache, and usually not very profitable. A lot of time is wasted with meetings, emails, revisions and "what-ifs".

Lately, I get very few of the dimensional jobs that I am required to bid on...with the same results that you are seeing. Most of my jobs now are for established clients who are not bound by the lowest bid.

[michael_schwartz]

I have attached one i am going to be doing. our price was $2,400. other bids were $1,200. and $1,600.
we will be high bidder and get job but i think it is worth $3,000 plus.

no gold leaf. 3'' thick with pvc and threaded rod pocketed in between the 1.5'' sheets. hanging bracket. auto paint. buy a 3d file for $25. for logo which will be painted. the border will be routed with wood grain file. there will be 4 levels.

so it has been hard to get the committee to understand why we are higher.
i had to go to a meeting.
they were nice but i have about a day in it so far.
i am not too methodical with pricing and sometimes when we price things the customer has alot of questions like this one where you have to bring sketches and talk to committee and have 20 emails going back and forth on all details. so it is not easy but not as hard as working in coal mine or washing dishes all day. i wish i could charge as much as i think it is worth each time and get the job. the size is 3x5ft

There is a nearby sign shop that would charge around 8 grand for that installed, but then again they are well known across the country.

[bleeth]

So is Dick! He and his son are top notch and do some outrageous stuff. Check out his profile.
Just like custom casework, different folks charge different prices for different reasons.
The bot community is fortunate to have the likes of him, Ray, Joe and some others who are absolute Aces in sign work offering advice.