Buddy Vs Fixed table Shopbot?

[woodshopcnc]

Looking at getting another router.

The primary function this cnc will be used for is to carve detailed molding up to 12"-16" wide.

Cost is an issue but I do want to get the right machine.

Questions:

Will a buddy with a power stick carve just as well as a fixed table shopbot? I will never cut large parts (over 16" wide) but the length is usually 8 ft sticks.

Also is the spindle worth the extra or will a router work (for carving applications)? Most of the carving is lite with 1/8" to 1/16" bit diameter?

Please suggest.

Stephen

[zeykr]

I'd personally go with the fixed table machine for 8' material. The buddy takes 16' of clear space to cut 8' material.

A spindle is better if it's at all in the budget.

[woodshopcnc]

thanks for the quick reply Ken. I did not think of the additional area needed for the buddy 16'! That will not work for my app.

I understand that a spindle is a better upgrade but is the quality of the carving that noticeable?

Will the older models PRT carve pretty good or is the PRS necessary (again mainly for carving only)?

Lastly, a standard version or an alpha? One is stepper and the other servo. Other than a servo would know where it crashed (I think) is there any other real benefit for a dedicated carver?

Stephen

[myxpykalix]

I have a prt alpha and i like it much better then a standard

I'm not sure of the going prices these days but router vs spindle...i have a router
1) its cheaper $300. vs $3000.00 maintaince and upkeep on a spindle is way higher. experts can give you the technical details regarding cut quality on each but ask yourself...do you need super quality details, and is the difference in quality worth the difference in price?

what type of carving are you doing?

2) i'd recommend a standalone table and not a buddy. The less moving parts you have the better off you are. I think at least a 4x8 table is what you should get. You will find that there is going to be more/varied uses you will get out of it then you think you might be doing at this point.

[woodshopcnc]

thanks Jack, a stand alone it is! What to cut with your router and how is the outcome? Any carving?

I have a contract for carvings I do for a company, on is a grape vine thing and the other is a sea theme: shells, sea horses, etc.

Due to cost, I'd rather pay for a router that I can throw in the trash when i burn it up over a spindle. But..... If you guys on this forum say that if I try to carve a sea horse with a router it will look like a sea dog, I can't have that.

This is my 1st post here and I can say for the forum, you guys seem honest and truly want to help so I do appreciate any and all comments.

By the way (I'll put on another post but) if any of you have a 48 x 96 prt or prs alpha with router or spindle I'm ready to buy. Am in the Nashville area but would consider a bot within 12 hr radius (or more if the price is right).

Stephen

[myxpykalix]

check out this section
For Sale/Wanted - ShopBot-related items only (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=12)

to see if anyone has one for sale in your area and price range. A used unit is still a good deal because they tend to hold up well over time. Also put an ad in that section for one wanted, maybe someone who has one may be interested in selling.

i would start out with a router. It will be louder but it will allow you to make enough money in profit with it to be able to buy a spindle later on if you see the need.

i have carved a lot of stuff and with varying results. I think that is something you are going to need to experiment with in terms or feeds/speeds/stepover and other things to get the results you are happy with.
Keep in mind the lower % stepover the better quality but the longer cut times.

[hh_woodworking]

Yes the router is much cheaper, but if 3d stuff is what you are cutting then think about this point of view. I spindle has less run out and can be slowed down much easier noise level is much less on the long runs for 3d work, much easier to be around. A spindle is designed to run for extended time routers are not.(yes I know that it is done all the time on cnc machines and do hold up pretty well but most are not running 3d file all the time either)If you do decide to stay with the router then the upgrade to Precise bits collet is a must. This will allow you to use 1/8 bits and the run out is much less than standard collet. http://www.precisebits.com/gateways/ColletsNutsHome.htm

[cowboy1296]

i have the buddy with a 4 foot power stick, with router. for me it is just fine. but i also believe in the concept of buying just a little more then you need because you will always think of a way to grow into it. also i am a mere hobbyist and might sell something every now and then. i recently upgraded to aspire 3.5 and glad i did. this is my first aspire cut. remember i am using a router. it has a least 4-5 areas that i could improve on in the design but the shopbot did just fine. we all learn by our mistakes.

[dana_swift]

Stephen:

I use both a buddy (router) and a gantry (spindle) shopbots. Both are great systems, and its just one of those choices you have to make.

One advantage of buddies and power sticks I take full advantage of, is to mount my indexer on one. Then its completely out of the way when I am not using it.

Yes buddies require L*2+4 feet of distance to operate in for any given length L. An 8' part requires 20' of shop space. Add two more feet or more to that so you can walk around the end when the powerstick is all the way in one direction.

You must support the weight of the powerstick and table when it projects past the buddy. You can rig up a support of your own, or buy one for SB.

If you intend to cut large things all the time a gantry bot has a clear advantage. Then if you cut small things most of the time the buddy has the clear advantage.

As to router vs spindle. My BT32 has a Porter Cable router. In over four years of operation I have had to replace the router once and no signs the second replacement is approaching anytime soon. Cost so far: $600 more or less. Either way you want to be able to use 1/8" bits. Edwards advice is right on! Spindles are only very slightly more accurate than what I get from the porter cable router. A half a thousandth of an inch or so from my experience. The runout on the PC router is very very small or it would eat its own bearings at a terrific rate.

As to running the PC router all day long without a hitch, I have done that so many times over and over again. Its not a problem that needs fixed.

If you ever decide to go with a spindle using a router for a while does not prevent you from converting.

Now the problem with a spindle. Warm up. Before you can do anything with a spindle you have to warm it up for about 12 to 15 minutes prior to the first cut of the day. At the end of a 5 day week a router has given you one and a half hours more cutting time. I use the same feed rates with each of them.

The spindle can make more aggressive cuts (deeper passes, not faster feed rates!) Feed rate is determined by RPM. Cut depth by real horsepower available at the bit. Spindles win.

Another thing.. both the router and the spindle are operated at the same RPM 12000-15000 almost always.

My guess is that you may find a spindle is a very nice system for carving detailed moldings, but then I would not hesitate for a moment to cut it on the buddy with the PC router.

An advantage you get from buying a less expensive system is that when you get enough experience to switch to a bigger machine, all shopbots sell quite quickly. So you can figure to keep 50 to 60% of your investment if you sell your first system to upgrade. Then you will know better what your particular needs are.

Not only that, you may keep the first system and add a second one.

I hope your business makes that the best path!

D

[dana_swift]

Rick- that is an awesome carving! Way way cool!

Excellent, thanks for posting!

D

[cowboy1296]

i am getting my first plank from perfect planks today. 25x48x1 7/8 alder. i am planning to do a larger elk/mountain scene with rustic frame, which will eat up 60 percent of it. a show is coming up and living in the sticks i doubt that it will sell but i want to show it. if it turns out good i will post some pictures.

[jerry_stanek]

I have both router and spindle and they both cut 3D files the same. The old PR with the router and 4g controller has way higher unit values on it than my PRS. I cut the same file on each and if you look at them you can't really tell a difference You can get a better collet for the router if you want. I just the standard though. As for what Jack said about more moving parts on a buddy does not make sense. Either the table moves or the gantry moves.

[woodshopcnc]

Jerry

"The old PR with the router and 4g controller has way higher unit values on it than my PRS"

What do you mean by higher unit values? I'm looking at a PRT right now with a router, is there a way to tell if the controller is a 4g?

Based on Rick's work, the router seems to do great job and would probably work fine for my carving needs.

[jerry_stanek]

The unit values for my old PR before the 4g upgrade were 159.1531 after the upgrade 3180.3062 my PRS standard is 1833.465. As far as the PRT you are looking at I would as if it has the 4g upgrade or is a Alpha.

[woodshopcnc]

I appreciate everyone's replies.

Lastly, for 3D carving are alpha shopbots the only way to go or would a standard with stepper motors do alright?

If I started with a standard, what would it cost to make it an alpha?

Stephen

[jerry_stanek]

I do 3d on my standards.

[shoeshine]

2009 PRS BT 48 standard w/ PC-Router.

I make gears in brass. They work. (assuming you take the time to get your machine dialed in) I have gotten tolerences in the .006" ranges. Typical is +/- .015" or so.

Dont sweat it.

Chris