"Non" Comfort Zone

[woodturner]

Hello All,

Non sign guy would appreciate any suggestions for a sign we have to make. Just finished a cabinet job and the customer asked if we could make their logo into a wall sign similar to their other location. It looks like 1'2" thick foam board with a brushed aluminum skin. I found the material (Alumiboard I think) but am looking for the usual answers like suggestions for speeds and feeds, and can I get away with standard up or down sprial bits, and/or "O" flutes for plastics I have in stock? I doubt we'll make another one of these for the foreseeable future. Overall this thing will be around 7' wide and 3' tall, 3 lines of individual letters (10" tall or so) and a logo. Some inside corners are fairly sharp so planning a 3/16" dia. bit and some touch up.

Also, we plan to simply attach to the wall with 3M double stick foam. Any suggestions for which grade?

Lastly, can anyone share the best way to lay these out on the wall efficiently?

Thanks in advance for any help.

[joe]

Ed.

I think you will get a good response if you post a drawing of what you're doing. If you have a snapshot of the other sign that would be helpful. This is a very visual craft and needs more information about the job.

What letterstyle? Is this open? How many Colors? What's the logo look like?

I get calls all the time wanting a price without even telling me the size.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

[woodturner]

Thanks for the reply Joe. This is a close up of the logo area with few letters. As a reference, the letters will be approximately 11" tall. Again it's a brushed aluminum face with a foam core, 1/2" thick. The letters appear flush to the wall so I'm assuming double sided tape.

Does that explain it better?

Thanks in advance.

[joe]

Yes, This makes more since.

You can purchase the aluminum coated in 4'X8' sheets of gator foam. The letter style isn't, to my knowledge, a commercial letter style. It looks home grown.

Double stick take might work depending on the smoothness and texture of the wall it's going on.

This kind of work brings big bucks.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

[woodturner]

Alright Joe, I'll nibble a bit more. Do you have any info you can share about how much his type of work should go for? Total of 17 letters with the logo shape, in 3 lines with a finished size of around 7' wide and 3' tall. Again, it's a first time for us. Also, any thoughts on my original questions? I paid more than $200 for the sheet of material and would like to get it right the first time if possible.

Thanks again!

[dakers]

I would "LIKE" be around $1,200 plus or minus pending further investigation on the install and some other issues if i were bidding this.

we have used vhb 3m tape. they make so many variations for different uses.
have had best luck with the vhb 2'' wide velcro. seems to give a bit if there are expansions and contractions.
have had some failures with regular vhb on latex wall surfaces.
could use cleats or the stand offs that are so popular today. i see those everywhere now.

for me alot of the price depends on the time it takes to sell the job. if the files are made then it goes smooth because they know what they want

[woodturner]

Hey Guys,

I tried some test cuts with various bits. I'm not crazy about the surface of the foam. Do you guys suggest placing the letters face down and perhaps spraying the edges? Is there a type of spray paint better suited to this (safe for foam) than another?

As usual, thanks in advance.

[Big-Tex]

Ed
Here is couple of things I have noticed. 90deg corners. original sign may have been cut with laser. This mean they payed big bucks for it!!!!!! Second, what I do is create 2 or 3 separate tool paths with same tool. 1st cut through alu facing 2nd cut foam 3rd if its alu backed. Only 2 if plastic backed. Each material different feeds and speeds. Key is is to use same tool so you do not see steps on the edges. 3m double sided tape will work. You may use studs or location pins for mounting letters( so they are in perfect line). In this case you have to cut is upside down and using upspiral will help you keep alu burr and drill location holes. Using same file take cheap piece of any material (templete) and drill stud or location pin in it and use it for install.

[woodturner]

Thanks for the tips guys. Thomas, I cut it yesterday morning and inadvertantly did exactly as you suggested. I used an 1/8" O-flute and cut just through the aluminum. So as not to break the bit, I went painfully slow (7,000 rpm @ 10mm/sec). Took about an hour and a half for that pass. Then went down 9mm into the foam (12,000 @ 22mm/sec), and finally 13mm with bridges at the same speed. We flipped the sheet over and trimmed. Everything looked good. Minimal tear out, no melting. Just a long time on the table, but no broken bits.

As a side note, I tried to call a couple of local sign businesses and told them I don't usually do this kind of stuff (ie: I'm not really a competitor) but could not get a decent answer as to a fair price. We build cabinets but did this at the customers request. I don't want to overcharge because I was unfamiliar with this type of work and I don't want to undercharge and degrade the trade. We plan to install on Monday.

Thanks again!

[dakers]

Ed, you mentioned pricing a couple times.
we agonize over it. we too do not want to be too high or too low.
but too high or too low is different for everyone.

for a job like this our employees would handle every phase of it.
there are some concrete figures we can apply like materials, approx estimate on fabrication time. The time it takes to get the customer from beginning to end to where he is agreeable to everything and we know what to do is so variable. there are expectations, surveys, writing up orders for other employees to know what to do and how to install to work on job in our system, file preparation.

we have to make $90. per man (key people) per hour minimum for every phase of it for our burden rate which is hard to do as we do need wiggle room for mistakes, lost time, equipment and building maintenance, etc so i estimate it at $1,200. you mentioned material cost over $200.
it would be hard for us to greet customer, survey, write up order, order materials, produce and install the job in less than one 8 hour man day so the price could be $950 if it goes smooth and fast.
We are higher priced than our competition but busy all year as we can provide a service with the number of people we have and the flexibility we have to multi task.

more and more we are buying from wholesale producers who can make the product cheaper than we can in house. We use Gemini quite a bit.

As for the edges on the foam, i feel like i have to disclose everything that could be a problem later to the customer before we begin, if it is a problem we choose a different material. some would not like the foam edges but choose it over a more expensive option because of budgeting. i try to do as much preventive problem solving as i can but it is a pain at times and slows down the process.

[woodturner]

Thanks for the additional information Dick. I ran some numbers for the total time it took to bring this together and I think we'll be in the range you've suggested. Our rate is lower but we had more hours than I would like. It was a good learning experience though!

Kind Regards,

Ed