Got a good product but need it made for less than you can do it?

[andrewm]

I am a former Shopbot owner and have a lot of experience working with the Shopbot. It was a great design and prototyping tool. In the end though to compete I had to get our products make overseas. My on the door finished price with painted furniture was about what it cost me for materials.

If you have a wood product that you have been making on your Shopbot and you want to get a whole container load made for less, drop me an e-mail and I can help you get your product made for less. Cut, finished, and packaged ready to sell. Concentrate on design, not mass production.

I have the experience to take your Shopbot project and get it done right overseas. I speak Shopbot.

Andrew McClary
andrew@davincispocket.com (mailto:andrew@davincispocket.com)

[handh]

I hope you have had the finishes and products tested for your safety and the end users. A lot of the cheap stuff done overseas is going to come back and haunt businesses, you better make sure you have the products tested by a independant lab.

I think that I will stay in house, "my design and prototyping tool" has been making me money just fine, sometimes its not the tool thats the problem, I really have a problem with everyone wanting to go overseas to compete. The people overseas deserve a decent wage that they are not receiving, its nothing to do with competing but wanting to make more money. The space between the have and have nots is ever increasing and the middle class is fastly disappearing. Sorry nothing personal but I hate this attitude.

Thank goodness that people still want quality products made from local shops and everyone doesn't have a walmart mentality. Just my 2 cents

This is in no way a personal attack. But it is time that we all take a look at how we do business and what and how we purchase effects our and other people's lives.

[brian]

I agree with Andrew.This desire to chase the ever loving dollar is at the root of most of are problems(I'm thinking Wallmart).Remember the good old days when the mom & pop stores domonated are landscape and everyone made a decent living.
I think someting is wrong when people would rather buy a inferior item and keep replacing it than to buy a quality item once.

Brian

[rhfurniture]

I agree with Jeff.
I have a friend carpenter in Zambia who earns 2 dollar a DAY. And, given that he has no electric help, he does a damn good job. I then read on this site of folk who earn 200 - 300 dollar an hour. Hopefully, one day it will all level out a bit.
My 2p R.

[garyb]

Idle hands while waiting on two machines to finish cutting so just got to have a shot at this one.

So Andrew what your advertising here on Shopbot's forum is for everyone to sell their Shopbots (or don't buy one in the first place)then don't make any product and contact you to outsource it overseas whereby you can get a cut brokering an inferior product that we need yesterday but are going to wait 8 weeks for on the slow boat from China.

Checked your site out and noticed the 4 products you sell are all electronic or radio contolled, yep thats talking Shopbot alright, where's the wood products you mentioned, got to hand it to you, you've got bal.s

Sorry but guess I am taking a cheap shot at you
because its people like you that hurts the small businesses which in turn effects the local economy.
I appoligize to the forum and will understand if the administrator deletes this one.

[elcruisr]

I have a friend in the aluminum manufacturing business. He keeps trying to outsource some of his small sub assemblies to China. It's not been a smooth road for him and about every other month he swears he's going to go back to in house on everything. Always seems to be a quality control issue or a miscommunication or a late shipment fouling his production line. I think he's about to give up after 5 years of banging his head on a wall.

I have a Shopbot because I can crank out lot's of custom parts FAST! China can't do that for me, thank you. If I wanted thousands of exactly the same product I wouldn't be a wood worker!!!

[lto]

I remember meeting Andrew at Ed Conley’s Atlanta Camp ShopBot. He actually seemed to be a pleasant, and interesting individual. As I recall he has obviously traveled the world much more than myself, which may be a factor in him seeing some things from a different perspective than most of us.

I have been involved in supplying steam bent components to US furniture manufacturers for years. As everyone knows, US wood furniture manufacturing continues to decline, due to the global market created by those in power.

Competition in a free market economy is a good thing as long as there is a somewhat level playing field. Currently we go to Wal-Mart and buy things produced in factories that would not come close to passing requirements imposed on US producers by OSHA, EPA, etc. As long as this situation continues, coupled with the perception of entitlement held by much of our population, manufacturing here will continue to decline and we will continue on the path towards personal and national bankruptcy.

Not so many years ago, the efforts and risk taking of an entrepreneur like Andrew would have had an impact on others much more local to him. When your neighbor may also be your employee or supplier there tends to be a more equitable distribution of income.

I do not believe that the likes of Andrew are the cause of our new economic reality. It originates on Wall Street where some are making millions as fast as we make shavings. These nearly incomprehendable amounts of money do a thorough job of eliminating whatever little conscience remained.

For those who are willing to produce whatever the customer cannot find in the mass market, and aim to deliver a little more than the customer expects, there will always be opportunities.

[jhicks]

Gotta stop worrying about China and India, you can't stop that momentum.
Consider our what our neighbors and our political leaders are up to.
Heard about the "North American Union"?
The master plan for a common currency and open borders between US, Mexico, and Canada.
Even though there was no vote to enter into this agreement, and few news reports about it, its happening and steadily moving forward.
Scarry but check the web to see whats up with the "north american union". You may be surprised.

Not sure what that will mean in terms of "leveling the field" but inclined to believe the good old usa folks may take the brunt of the change and fear it may not be that positive.
No stopping the momentum as the globe gets smaller and smaller but glad the developments like shop bot are out there to help us compete on some level.
Nobody said it would be easy.

[bcammack]

It's going to take 50 years of business chasing cheap labor around the globe until there isn't any labor left that's cheap enough to bother with and things settle back down into something that seems familiar. Look how long it took for manufacturers to abandon Mexico for cheaper environs.

The genie is out of the bottle. The oil century is going to be a memory soon. Our global economic hegemony is fading fast. Our complacency will be our undoing.

The choices we make in the next few years are going to have a profound effect on our children's and grandchildren's lives.

[knight_toolworks]

the biggest problem is corporate attitude. In the us the big guys say how can we make more profit? in japan it is how can we make out customers happy. thats a huge attitude difference. in the us it's all about growth all the time. nothing can grow forever. even when a company is making a profit there can be layoffs because the profit is not high enough.

[Brady Watson]

I'd venture to say that very few of us here are affected by overseas competition as it relates to our direct businesses. While many prescribe to the doom & gloom outlook, keep in mind that there will ALWAYS & FOREVER be a market for custom items and custom machining in your region. To think otherwise is just poverty thinking, in my opinion.

-B

[andrewm]

Seems I hit a sore point here. I got to tell you guys I wish like crazy just saying "Made in America" meant something to the US consumer. The reality though is they don't give a care except how much it costs them. That said, we need to look at our strengths not our weaknesses. Our strength is in designing and marketing. Our weakness is labor costs. That weakness is caused by two factors. 1. The cost of living in the US is high. It sounds horrible to you when you hear of someone making $10 a day except that you are missing that for that money they can buy food and housing for their family. The cost of living is lower. 2. There is a shortage of good hard working legal American workers.

Da Vincis Pocket is only a side business. I spent 4 years setting up a furniture business with my brother handling the design and production. I now do consulting to other companies that are interested in making money with the products that they have designed.

Many of you may have found a niche where you can sell your US manufactured products and make money. But you may have an idea for a product that you can't make cheaply enough to be able to sell and make money. Its business guys. Simple business 101. You make out a spread sheet, figure your costs, add in some profit. Then you have to see if people are willing to buy it for that price. If not, then you have to look for a way to make it for less.

The problem isn't people like me, the problem is the consumer. But its really not a problem unless you insist on making something that someone else can make cheaper. What I offer is a way to help you take your designs, get product, and make money.

The reality is the CNC part of the equation is not the problem. It is usually the cost to sand, paint, and finish. The labor intensive part.

So, if you've got a product you developed, and tested making on your shopbot and are interested in getting it made so you can sell to mass market, give me a call. I'm here to help. I have thousands of hours of time standing behind a Shopbot, understand how to program one, and understand how to take that code and translate it to other foreign systems.

Andrew

[andrewm]

By the way, I am not advertising that you should sell your Shopbot. Its an amazing tool and if I had had the space to keep mine, I would still have it. Actually got back on the boards to look for a PRT 48.
What I am talking about is products you can make on the Shopbot, but are not cost effective to make in mass in the US to sell to consumers. We used our Shopbot for 3 years to design, prototype, and make short runs of products for market testing. We couldn't have done it without a Shopbot and neither can you. By having a Shopbot that you can design and test products with, you really have a big leg up on a lot of people with ideas. The Shopbot has done for manufacturing what the laser printer did for desktop publishing. But you wouldn't use a laser printer to publish a best selling book nationwide.

Sorry to have ruffled feathers. Be creative guys! Thats our strength.

Andrew

[olecrafty]

Go to the online auction houses and look at all the big companies closing plants due to cheap China and Indonesia products. New equipment for 10% of price. Eathan Allan, Thomasville, and many, many more.

No I will keep in house what I can. Some of my best business breaks came from companies that buy from overseas, but had schedule problems. My shopbot and low overhead, coupled with on time delivery beat China.

I Live in U.S.A. I buy American when I can. I employee high school and college students and teach my craft to those who want to learn.

Some of my past employees are now my competiters. We compete on many jobs and when we can we partner to do the jobs that are too large for one of our shops.

Buy U.S.A. products and Sell to the World.

I will slide my soap box back under the work bench now.
Olecrafty

[garyb]

Well spoke Kaiwa.

Most of our work is custom so not effected by this but its the low cost inferior products produced in sweat shops which are imported to undercut the local industry that I strongly object to.

If you don’t think the importation of cheap products will affect us in the long run then you live in a dream world. Just ask Mattel and all the people who purchased their products how much its cost them.
The automotive industry was one of the first to recognize this and pushed for tariffs on import vehicles to level the playing field. This helped in overseas car manufacturers setting up plants locally, which in turn increased employment and helped the local economy.

[bob_lofthouse]

I had a great laugh this week.

we use chinese plywood...... I would love to use Birch.

An importer contacted us about purchasing/having our products cut in china rather than us manufacturing in the UK.

He couldn't beat us on price for manufacturing!!!

I think I should either put my prices up or start exporting to China.

[elcruisr]

Actually we quoted a project for a wood products manufacturer / importer about a year ago. This would have been a steady ongoing contract. He currently imports from his own plant in China but quoted the rising costs of labor, shortage of high quality wood and rising shipping costs. In the end he said we were close but he was going to continue in China for another two years and then re-evaluate again. With rising fuel costs we may be in business yet!!

As for Chinese plywood, it never crosses the doors of my shop. Way to many quality issues for us.....

[terryd]

Whats the problem Eric? Don't like the sparks, the smell of burning dung and the 6 foot long splinters that used to be laminations....Jeeez no sense of adventure :-).... I try to buy American also, since your prices from our production and forestry companies here in Canada is 10% less than mine. When I called to complain they said it was due to shipping charges....That one really hurt my brain...

Happy labour day dudes, we all earned it..

TerryD

[jhicks]

saw news recently that China has abandoned their 10% subsidy / tax rebate to manufacturers and had some other increase in line. Suposedly this increase totals 15% overall immediately so you may see folks shopping again. Not that 15% will make the entire difference but it might be the incentive to look around for other suppliers in light of other problems of late with materials and quality concerns.
Keep your eyes open, opportunity is always out there when you look for it.
I think buy america is alive and well so don't fret too much about competitors. just do what you do well and be happy you're able to do it.

[henrik_o]

It's easy to carp about inferior Chinese products, but I actually respect what they're doing, because they're in this for real. They care about manufacturing, and they want to excel at it.

No, they are not all there yet, certainly, but let's put it this way: if you look at the big iron exhibits at Ligna+, where the serious manufacturers of serious industrial woodworking machinery exhibit, you'll probably see 9 chinese investors for every European or American.

They are going to stick with this, and they are going to be the manufacturing powerhouse of the world, not because their labour is cheap or their government imprisons union leaders or fixes wages, but simply because they care about manufacturing and want to beat the world at it.

This is about visions. The West lost its vision for manufacturing somewhere along the line when everyone was supposed to be white collar and have a college degree or you're no good.

And in the end, I think China is our blessing, since they're in this for real and as such the challenge will reach a breaking point -- unlike the low-cost havens that shift every five year, China is a fix star and they're going to force the West to come to terms with our abandonment of the visions of making things, force us to face the crossroads.

Either admit defeat and deal with it, or take up the challenge and forge a new vision.

/soapbox

[bob_lofthouse]

Hi Henrik,

I don't mind importing wood from china and I know what I'm getting (garbage). Only today we were having a discussion about finding gloves, stanley knifes and other metal objects in it.

Birch from europe is 3 to 4 times more expensive and just cannot compete.

But nearly every manufacturer I speak to tells me the same story about chinese manufacturing... Great prototype followed by garbage when you place the order.

I hear the same story/complaints time and again. As a manufacturer china needs to mature and learn a thing or two about customer retention.

[terryd]

Sad thing is the Malaysian are now supplying a large portion of our (canada) "industrial" grade plywood and their economy is also growing. No sparks so far but man' oh' man does it stink when cutting it. Its actually a rubber tree being passed as Malaysian oak. Most peculiar lamination format also. Two layers flat, the 1/2 inch or so of hardwood core perpendicular to the face the the backside of two layers. Entire centers fall out and we would normally use solid lumber but it was spec'ed out by the "all seeing and all knowing" architecs... Can you tell I'm not impressed. Save $2 a sheet then spend $2 for bodyfiller and $8 of labour to fill the voids so that we meet spec. When all things are considered everything has a true cost. Be it plywood,toys and even food there is a landed cost that has to be recovered. I'm not knocking China or Malaysia but we here in the West have to realize that China is a coal fired economy that is trying to utilize its only marketable resource which is manpower. Technology, development, quality and customer service will all come later as maturity arrives. This maturity will only be achieved through value based comparison shopping on our part. Anybody on this forum think that the Shopbot machine could be produced in China for any great cost savings, overall. Not this week.

[andrewm]

Tell you what guys, you keep dreaming that China only makes garbage. The reality it that they are very capable of making first class quality stuff. But just like in the US, if you go low bid, that is what you get. Anyone out there have an iPhone? First class product, completely assembled in China.

The key to getting good product is knowing how to work with them. That is what I am offering. I actually go over to China and work with them on the prototypes and make sure they know what is expected. I make clear guidelines for quality inspection, check materials, follow the assembly of the first run, and inspect the product prior to shipment. I actually go to the factory and work right alongside of the CNC operators and finishing crews to make sure its done right. Chinese workers are hard working people, but like any labor force require good direction.

Manufacturing in China in not for everyone or every product. Its for mass production. Anything less than a container is not worth it. In reallity you should be looking at getting at least 4 or more containers in the year to make it really cost effective.

There will always be a place for American made products. Custom cabinets, furniture, and expensive short run item are best done here and that is what the Shopbot does best. But if you find that you designed something on your Shopbot that has mass market appeal and you need a big labor force, its a lot cheaper in China.

[lto]

This China versus US manufacturing debate is often playing out on WoodWeb, as in this thread; http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/business.pl?read=530953 .

The Chinese have more patience than I would in continuing to produce more and more for a consumer, (the USA) who pays in IOU's. I'd be concerned about default, they must have a long term view/plan.

[larry_r]

It is funny to remember way back to the "sixties" when everyone would joke about the low quality of stuff coming out of a place called Japan.

[andrewm]

Two people asked me about the iPhone. The iPhone like most products is manufactured under the direction of Apple by a number of Chinese companies. I actually met a number of the Chinese engineers in Shenzhen working on the iPhone. The real savings when working with China is that you can partner with the Chinese company and then you don't have the investment in machines and infrastructure.

My first project with China was a MDF painted toy chest that I designed. My brother and I made 50 of them on our PRT 96 in our garages as a test. We sold every one of them as fast as we could make them. I ran the numbers and modeled it all out in spreadsheets as to the cost to ramp up with a facility in Georgia. I factored in materials, labor, wear and tear on machines, tool cost, etc. I knew how much the chests would sell for in our tests. After the numbers were crunched, we weren't going to make any money! But by taking the product to China, we were able to make a profit.

Many people have this distorted idea that the companies who manufacture in China or other countries are taking advantage of everyone to line their own pockets with great wealth. The reality is that isn't the case. The ones who benefit are really the consumers not the manufacturers. The consumer gets a better product than they could afford and were willing to pay for. The manufacturer makes about the same mark up he would have charged had he made it here. The difference is a product that only a few would have afforded is now afforded by many. A product that wouldn't have made much profit is now profitable.

As for the Chinese or other foreigners, they are just happy to work so they can feed their families. If we were not there, they would starve. Funny thing is, even on the few dollars they make a day, the average Chinese saves 20-30% of his income!!! The guys I hired here had drunk most of thier check away before Monday arrived. With the economic boom they have had over the past 10 years, a very large middle class has developed in China. In 10 years, they won't be selling stuff to us, but to their own people. They will have one of the largest middle classes in the world by numbers, but still have a labor pool to continue to make stuff.

By the way, our unemployment rates here are low. Go out there and try to hire good people for labor. Its not easy. The good people that do work hard are always in demand.

Andrew

[costast]

What you fail to discuss is the blatant copyright/patent/theft infringement that occurs in Communist China.

You write:
"The iPhone like most products is manufactured under the direction of Apple by a number of Chinese companies. I actually met a number of the Chinese engineers in Shenzhen working on the iPhone. The real savings when working with China is that you can partner with the Chinese company and then you don't have the investment in machines and infrastructure. "

Regarding the Iphone that you speak of
have you ever heard of the the Meizu MiniOne?

Here:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/eew/blatant-iphone-clone-sucks-hard-283786.php

Bought in Shenzhen, where you met your engineers.



A few more examples:
Vehicles:

http://www.leftlanenews.com/mercedes-considering-legal-action-over-fortwo-look-alike.html

This is an interesting comparison,

Check out these two quick videos of German crash test done on a Chinese vehicle (and look at the one below)

http://www.leftlanenews.com/chinese-sedan-flunks-german-crash-test-with-video.html

It is mind boggling that something like this is even in production.



There are a host of issues that are too numerous to discuss along with the latest ones in the news today. (Toothpaste laced with sweeteners made from chemicals in antifreeze, Mercury, Lead Paint, contaminated pet food etc...)

Whats troubling is what happens all the folks in that country that are "responsible" after the news is out.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/14/business/worldbusiness/14toy.html?ex=1189569600&en=82ca162fd9e4d268&ei=50 70

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118606827156686195.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

There is no doubt that China is definitely a major manufacturing force in the world and is growing, but the playing field in no way is level.

You write:
"they are just happy to work so they can feed their families."

Many of us feel the same way.

[andrewm]

Before you place all the blame on the Chinese for the blatent copyright infringement, remember that they only make what we buy. For every clone maker there is an American funding it and a thousands of Americans who buy it. The problem is not just a Chinese one. I have also met a lot of companies here in the US that don't have any ethics. There are bad apples everywhere. But most aren't bad. We import millions of containers of product every year, 90% is safe, legal, and good products.

My other company I owned, which I now just consult for, is Fan Creations which produced license collegiate products. (www.fan-creations.com (http://www.fan-creations.com)) So I happen to know more about licensing than most. I happen to know a number of guys on this list who have used college logos on thier products without licenses. Yea, i know you only made a few of them. Its illegal guys. We spent thousands of dollars and lots of accounting to legally license the logos. 15-25% of the gross price goes back to the university. Point is, people in glass houses shouldn't throw bricks. I know its not all of you, but those who have know who they are. FYI - Don't come to me to get your stuff produced unless it's legal. I don't deal in that kind of stuff.

Again, you get what you demand. You ask for cheap stuff you get cheap stuff. But it is possible to get good quality things made for less if its managed right.

Again, I am not trying to take food off the plate but put it on it. If you have a product that you can't make a profit on making it in the US, it may be possible to get it made in China which brings money back to your company.

[costast]

You write:

"For every clone maker there is an American funding it"

False. That iphone example I have given you is a Chinese funded product Meizu, and there is an article about it (made the front page of popular science this month as well) http://www.popsci.com/popsci/currentissue/index.html

I'd even wager that those same iphone engineers you state you have spoken with are simply sharing the technology with them in Shenzhen. (the product itself is poorly made based on people who have purchased and actually used them)

Since you mention that "For every clone maker there is an American funding it" (which shouldnt make a difference if anyone, American or not did, and does not make it any more right),
Lets site another example. How about a Japanese company instead?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/01/technology/01pirate.html?ex=1304136000&en=d01abb1690a4e540&ei =5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Yes, they faked an entire company and went as far as it required other factories to pay royalties for "licensed" products and issued official-looking warranty and service documents. Effectively hijacking the brand...the counterfeiters carried NEC business cards, commissioned product research and development in the company's name and signed production and supply orders.


You write:
"I have also met a lot of companies here in the US that don't have any ethics. There are bad apples everywhere."

We have enforceable laws in this country. NEC had the type of resources and pull to throw at the authorities just to even begin the crackdown. Try that when your making MDF toy boxes.

You Write:
"You ask for cheap stuff you get cheap stuff"

Couldnt have said it any better.

[3d_danny]

Now days, I always look at the country or origin and absolutely will not buy it if made in China. I prefer to not dispose of any item 'sooner than later'.

Bill Clinton put us in this mess and now there is another one wanting to do the same.

Owning a Shopbot is the best way for me to maintain a very high quality standard. This gives me allot of satisfaction as well as piece of mind that I will never have a customer come to my shop and complain about substandard work or materials.

China is not our friend.......

[knight_toolworks]

just because it does not say made in china the parts may be made in china. there are few electronics made in the us or other such place anymore.

[bill.young]

Bunnie Huang, an MIT engineering grad, has been blogging about getting one of his inventions manufactured in China. It's from a designer and engineer's point of view and is pretty interesting reading no matter what side of the China issue you find yourself on.

Link to Bunnie's blog (http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?cat=7)

Bill

[rhfurniture]

Thanks Bill. Didn't read all the words, but China is just a wonderful place - so full of energy and ability. Personally, I think they deserve all the work they can get, and they will do well, no doubt about that. I have always been amazed at their increadible attention to fine detail and I am sure that any quality issues they have at present will not last long. There is room for everyone in this world. My 2P.

[twelchPTM]

Personally I'm not looking to get rich, I'm looking to be comfortable. If I had to worry about what other guys were doing and how there work looked I wouldn't be able to enjoy my job, then my job becomes work, then my work becomes stress, and my stress becomes a blown blood vessel in my neck. I would rather sell only what I can make then introduce the added stress of overseeing production. And on the rare occasion that I do need to outsource something I try my damndest to keep it as local as possible.
And even on the flip side Say I'm shopping for an entertainment center, I wouldn't even think twice before I paid more for the solid wood model then the MCP **** that seems to be flooding the market place. Funny story... my wife was so proad of herself when I got home from work the other day because she picked out a new entertainment stand, and she got a great deal AND put it together all by herself, well I took one look at it, decided I was ready to get a flat screen and put my TV on it. the 1/2" mcp cracked around the bolt holes with in second and the tv screen fell right into the coffee table. SO... you can keep you mass-produceed, **** material product to your self(unless of course I need and excuse for a new TV)

[rb99]

If I had a product that could be mass produced I would be all over this. Do you guys think a few whiners on the internet will make any difference when the CEO's of large companies are all on board with China?

Andrew how do you charge and do you work on percentages?

[genek]

The only thing that taking products overseas ( china or where ever) is cutting out on jobs here in the United States. You are feeding a country that would destroy us in a heart beat... I think companies that take the work there need to move there and stay there. pure dumb... sooner or later it will cost more to make it there ... lmao at the dumb ones that send it over there.

[bruce_taylor]

Andrew,
You have hit a sensitive nerve with this one, great topic! If the little guy wants to compete against the big guys overseas manufacturing is a no brainer, I use china rta cabinets and can buy them for about what the materials cost me to make. I didn't invent it just trying to make a living at it and to remain competitive that is what is necessary. I thank you for the information and if I have anything that would work for this I will be in touch. It is not a few container loads that will make the difference it is happening with or without us. Driven by the american consumer and wealthy american companies wanting to do it cheaper, I have watched the quality continue to improve on the chinese products and will not discount it as I once did. Adapt to the market place or go the way of the dinosaur.

[bryan]

Idle hands while waiting on two machines to finish cutting so just got to have a shot at this one.

So Andrew what your advertising here on Shopbot's forum is for everyone to sell their Shopbots (or don't buy one in the first place)then don't make any product and contact you to outsource it overseas whereby you can get a cut brokering an inferior product that we need yesterday but are going to wait 8 weeks for on the slow boat from China.

Checked your site out and noticed the 4 products you sell are all electronic or radio contolled, yep thats talking Shopbot alright, where's the wood products you mentioned, got to hand it to you, you've got bal.s

Sorry but guess I am taking a cheap shot at you
because its people like you that hurts the small businesses which in turn effects the local economy.
I appoligize to the forum and will understand if the administrator deletes this one.

I couldn't have said this better, Gary

[adrianm]

This is a very old post. Some of the people being quoted haven't posted for five years.....

[sugarbeatco]

I think if I had to send it to china to have it produced Im in the wrong damned business. Look around at all the disposable **** we have.Remember when you used to have that tv serviced when it falls through the crappy china made entertainment center? They don't do that anymore, they simply replace it. Where is the quality in that? Doesn't that promote the disposable product movement that has killed quality? How does that benefit anyone in this world? The only people that benefits are the ones who send the work over there to make a quick buck. Exploiting another country for their lower wages... Maybe Shopbot, whose forum you're coincidentally posting on, decides to send production overseas. Guess what happens to me? I go elsewhere. I care where my money goes and what kind of company I support. I value customer service and being able to understand the person on the other end of the phone line.. As a country we need to consider what it is we want from our companies and what kind of business we promote and stick to it. I don't care if this thread is 10 years old the fact that it is even here upsets me. I say if you want to support china's economy so bad then you know how to get there, support it from there and quit promoting the exploitation of a lower wage worker, the lower environmental standard, and the exportation of our money in this critical economy.

[bob_reda]

When I was growing up it was the cheap stuff from Japan and lot where that got them. Leslie Stahl ( I believe it was her)from one on the network news programs threw out a challange a few months back to build a house with all products made in the USA. They found out the total cost of the house was 1 per cent more than with using foreign made products. Many builders actually said they found american made products cheaper than ones made overseas. For whatever it is worth. Taking more jobs out of this country will one day make no one in this country buying anything. Just my .02 -/+ .001

[Rick W]

Where I live, they said on the news that prices of our solid wood are going to go through the roof. The chineese are buying it all up. Supply and demand!!!!
Then what??

Rik

[johnh]

We gotta hit the retailers where the wallet is kept. RETURN those junk Chinese items when they fail. Do your part to fill up all those containers heading back! (not really, Walmart just sends it to our landfills... but you get the idea).

Why are the Chinese absolute experts at making products that LOOK like what we will buy, but perform so poorly? Take a walk through a Harbor freight store, or a local Dollar Store and it's just so obvious that the majority of the imported products will fail. It's like the products are meant to be photographed for a Alibaba shot and that's it...."Get the money, it's not coming back".

This is an old thread... whatever happened to the Boca Raton importer?