HDU sign board question

[ben rudgers]

Thanks all.

I am an architect working on developing a standard three part specification for HDU sign board. I am trying to list three products, I have Precision Board, Sign Board 3, and Corafoam HDU. However, I have not been able to determine if CoraFoam HDU is still available in the US market.

If not, who can I use as a third manufacturer?

And on the off chance, does anyone have an existing three part specification for HDU sign board they are willing and able to share?

Thanks again,

Ben

[tuck]

Duna Board is a popular HDU product.

[joewino]

As far as I know, Corafoam is still being manufactured in Baytown, Texas...but it's hard to find a distributor. Duna USA has their parent company in Italy.

The only other HDU brand that I know is Jasper Board or sometimes called Design Board, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

[letterman7]

I prefer Duna myself.. what, if I can ask, is a "three part specification"? Not all of us are architects.. is that like a MSDS sheet?

[ben rudgers]

I prefer Duna myself.. what, if I can ask, is a "three part specification"? Not all of us are architects.. is that like a MSDS sheet?

Three part specifications are the standard format by which architects specify work in a project manual. It was developed by CSI (construction specifier's institute). The three parts are "General," "Products," and "Execution."

An example: http://arcat.com/sdspecs/htm/10440sip.htm

The goal of the project is to use a 4' x 10' x 4" monolithic piece of signboard with engraved letters in lieu of stone. I am considering a Polymer Based finish to achieve a "sandstone" texture (basis of design PB-hardcoat from coastal).

The sign is supported along the bottom edge with a continuous steel 2x3 tube and two epoxied anchor bolts on each vertical edge.

Application will be exterior.

Ben

[letterman7]

And this is why architects should never spec signs. No offense, but if you don't know the material you shouldn't be placing specs without talking with sign people in your area. If you want that monument to snap the instant it's installed, do it your way. As Joe Crumley states in another thread on HDU, these products aren't intended to be structural (in everything but the smallest application). And the hardcoat... depending on the environment it's installed in, you may not need that and can save time and money pursuing other surface coatings.

Seriously though, an architect that has no concept of sign construction shouldn't be specifying materials and construction. I wouldn't be if I were building a new energy efficient building since I'm not an architect!

R

[ben rudgers]

And this is why architects should never spec signs. No offense, but if you don't know the material you shouldn't be placing specs without talking with sign people in your area. If you want that monument to snap the instant it's installed, do it your way. As Joe Crumley states in another thread on HDU, these products aren't intended to be structural (in everything but the smallest application). And the hardcoat... depending on the environment it's installed in, you may not need that and can save time and money pursuing other surface coatings.

Seriously though, an architect that has no concept of sign construction shouldn't be specifying materials and construction. I wouldn't be if I were building a new energy efficient building since I'm not an architect!

R

Rick, I agree with some of what you are saying.

On the other hand, the reality is that the project is to be bid competitively based on plans and specs.

To put cost into perspective, the monument sign which is being replaced is original to the building and was built in 1977.

My understanding from talking with Coastal was that continuous support along the bottom edge would be sufficient, hence the tube steel. Reading your comment makes me consider running it up the edges as well.

How would you build it differently?

Ben

[joe]

Ben,

I'd like to assist.

Let me complement you on posting on this forum for information.

The highest quality HDU comes from:

Corofoam (Duna)
Sign Foam
Design Board

Precision Board by Coastal is not in the top three manufacturers. I haven't found a wide disparity in cost among these products. If you wish I can find you a contact of Duna.

I have posted often about the weakness and advantages of HDU. With the thickness of 4" you have eliminated the first one, which is warp and breakage. Even so HDU at these sizes will need physical support. Another consideration is edge chipping. Without knowing the lettering depth and size I'm at a loss. Perhaps you could send an illustration.

Good luck with your search

Joe Crumley

[letterman7]

No where near sufficient, Ben. For something freestanding like this, you'll want an internal framework at a bare minimum. The support legs can be built into the framework and exit at the bottom of the sign. And I'll tell you from someone who has both worked for companies and for myself that have bid on "architect spec"... you will never get a sign company to build it to your spec - ever. Everyone has their own method of building items, this is no different. While I would build it with an internal steel frame, others would build it differently. I think what you should do is put something general in the project for the sign - general look and finish, and add in a "not to exceed" cost for just that portion. Signfoam may not be the way to do this; there are several monument manufacturers that offer a freestanding structure (well, anchored on internal posts) that are not SF, but built EPS with a DryVit finish - exactly what you are looking for. Look up Peachtree Foamcraft and you'll see what I'm talking about. And, depending where you are in Alabama, I can refer you to a couple different installers and sign companies.

I really don't mean to come off sounding like an a**. I have the deepest respect for Joe since he's been in the game a little longer than I. What bothers me is that someone with an advanced degree comes to a board that isn't really a sign message board and basically asks for all the information the rest of us have taken years to obtain. It would be like me asking you to design my house for free. Do your research. Keep the business local to you - talk with established sign companies and learn how stuff is built... then spec it.

[joe]

Rick & others,

Why are there such universal poor feelings about working with Architects? At this stage of my life I actually enjoy working with these folks. But the fact remains they are almost, always, difficult to work with. All are degreed and come out of the schools of architecture with a authoritarian attitude. I absolutely adore it in the same way I enjoy snooty down town Parisian waiters. Both exhibit the same amount of effete attitude. Like they are having to mud wrestle with a pig. I soak it up. The truth is they're good people and you have to work around the attitude. Once you've pull their fat out of the fire, they can be loyal clients. But the attitude is always there.

Look, there are very few degreed sign artists. And to open up business you don't need anything like a degree. I'd bet most sign companies don't employee degreed people of any kind. No wonder architects don't have much appreciation for this craft. Today with the Vinyl shops opening on every corner there's no chance we will see much change.

There is a deep and long history in the Architecture of Fonts. Our standard Helvetica and Roman letters have developed over centuries. Everyone in this trade should know more about the fonts they use. After all that's the ingredients we use to make our products. It's one essential topic architects are not taught in college. They don't know Times New Roman from the Texas Two Step.

Joe Crumley

[ben rudgers]

I don't really like working with architects, either...any more than I did before I became one. I went to vo-tech for architectural drafting, completed my program just in time for the S&L recession, and after a long search landed a $7/hour job in the engineering department of a precast plant. I dealt with architectural drawings as an end user, and I asked myself the same questions everyone else does.

On the other hand, I have come to better understand the legitimate reasons we do what we do (the illegitimate ones remain what they are). To sum those up, it's personal professional liability which extends from seven to more than a dozen years depending on the state and which cannot be redirected to a corporate entity. Ben seals a set of plans, and Ben is personally responsible - Ben, Inc. only protects against contractual liability.

I found this board by searching for "Duna CoraFoam." While I am sure there are other boards dedicated to signs, I've been around the internet long enough to recognize an vibrant online community when I see one.


I asked for input from sign makers because I appreciate what other people do that I don't. Early in my career, I worked for the architect on this project: http://www.creativeartsinc.com/projects/florida-international-museum/



Why monolithic HDU? is a really good question.

I drove around looking at monument signs. I don't want water inside the construction. EPS/Dryvit is not intended for flat horizontal applications, and it was apparent that this is not uncommon among local sign makers simply from the degree and type of degradation readily observable on a number of signs. The top surface of an HDU board will not have this problem.

Second factor is that there is conventional construction involved in the base for the sign and using sign board as a component rather than an integrated assembly helps diversify the pool of bidders (sign can be subcontracted or a sign fabricator can act as prime). It also provides flexibility down the road for the Owner to change their identity package. Call it the "pylon principle, lite."

Finally, the aesthetic effect is for the sign surface itself to appear monolithic, and starting with a monolithic material helps achieve this effect. As I mentioned, the sign which is being replaced has been around since 1977. The client has been a part of the community since 1938. It is important for the sign to reflect this permanence.

I really appreciate the fact that you guys are sharing your expertise. When it goes out to bid, I will come back to this thread and provide a way for anyone interested to chase the work.

Thanks again,

Ben

[letterman7]

I found this board by searching for "Duna CoraFoam." While I am sure there are other boards dedicated to signs, I've been around the internet long enough to recognize an vibrant online community when I see one.
Why monolithic HDU? is a really good question.

I drove around looking at monument signs. I don't want water inside the construction. EPS/Dryvit is not intended for flat horizontal applications, and it was apparent that this is not uncommon among local sign makers simply from the degree and type of degradation readily observable on a number of signs. The top surface of an HDU board will not have this problem.

Second factor is that there is conventional construction involved in the base for the sign and using sign board as a component rather than an integrated assembly helps diversify the pool of bidders (sign can be subcontracted or a sign fabricator can act as prime). It also provides flexibility down the road for the Owner to change their identity package. Call it the "pylon principle, lite."

Finally, the aesthetic effect is for the sign surface itself to appear monolithic, and starting with a monolithic material helps achieve this effect. As I mentioned, the sign which is being replaced has been around since 1977. The client has been a part of the community since 1938. It is important for the sign to reflect this permanence.



Well said, Ben. I hope you didn't take offense to my arrogance. Forums have a funny way of adding underlying tones without meaning to. I'm surprised to hear that there are issues with a foam/EIFS style sign in your area. Most of those signs are covered with a poly hard coat before the EIFS spray even goes on, making them relatively impervious to just about anything other than a direct hit with a car. I have a sample here that I can hit with a baseball bat and nothing happens! In any case, I would still leave the option open for bidders. You may even find someone to do a cast in place concrete sign for far less than someone building up a hdu monument..