Full Time, Part time?

[john_r]

How Many shopbotters are using their shopbot full time as a business VS having a different day job and shopbotting part time? I've read some of the stories about some of the guys losing their day jobs and trying to go fulltime with the shopbot. How are all you guys doing now? I'm not there yet just looking out for the future when big corporation says "thanks for playing".

Thanks,
John

[bryan]

John, I'm using it part time at this point, with the goal of full time. It has opened the door on what I can do in the shop, Have been doing a lot of sub work for several small sign shops and cabinet shops in the area.

Bryan

[Brady Watson]

John,
I was laid off last year and have been using my Bot(s) fulltime. I don't run them all the time, only when I need to suppliment my fabrication business. Things are tight at times...feast or famine, but I'm still standing and making the mortgage. It takes time to make contacts, so as time goes on, more business will come in the door.

-Brady

[bjenkins]

John,

I have a day job that pays the bills. I'm building a business with my son that hopefully will keep him busy full time in a year or so. It gives me a great outlet for my itch to do engineering and build my own business.

[elcruisr]

Fulltime and sometimes overtime. We have a full woodshop as well but I have one employee now who just runs the machine, frees me up to do more! I still do the programming and much of the CAD work though. Last summer it was 18 hours a day for four months. Thanks to the Alpha upgrade we can now keep it down to a single shift a day.

Eric

[gerald_d]

Eric, you mentioned "summer" - we also find that spring/summer brings in a lot more work than autumn/winter. This seasonal nature was unexpected when we started out.

[stickman]

Right now, I am part-time. I've got enough business coming in to keep making the payments and cover most expense.

So on and so forth, I continue to look for more and have made contacts that keep me busy with work. I'm also working to develop my "line" of products and projects. We will be gearing up for a Feb. home show.

I keep the full-time job, that I dislike, in order to support my family and keep financial strength.

[elcruisr]

Gerald, the worst is the 2 months before christmas. Nobody seems to want to do much of anything!

Eric

[mikejohn]

75% of my income comes in the two months before Christmas.
I make traditional Rocking Horses!

[kaaboom_99]

My PRT96 sits idle far too much for my liking. Was bought as a "hobby" tool with POTENTIAL! At present am working up to a part time income status. I would love to get full time employment with it and to cut back on the hours (or retire) from my present job that doesn't have the challenges nor the rewards.
We shall see what the future holds.

[Brady Watson]

Perry,
Just get out in the shop and play. I found that I really couldn't think of something that I needed/wanted to make...so I turned to my friends. They had several things that needed to be cut or made...and in turn, so did a lot of their friends. You never know who is friends with who...and who's going to need your services. I went out and hit the streets, drumming up business. You need to let people know that you exist. I have more customers that are linked to friends than ones I went out and scouted.

If you consistently dedicate time to get out in the shop and play or cut/make something you kinda get into a routine...and possibilities open up. Kinda strange how that works.

-Brady

[bryan]

Brady I'll second that one, I have got more customers from my friends, friends then my web site, crafts fairs at the local town, or going knocking at other shops to find some sub work. Word of mouth is very powerful.....

[jay]

John, just 14 months ago I purchased my PR96 as something to toy with in our fulltime woodworking shop. I figured I could use it for some cabnet work and cut for some of the sign companies in our small city of 113,000 people. Brady is right play with the machine find out what you can do, more importantly find out what you can't do.

Take some samples or pictures with you and keep calling on the sign shops in town. I now cut for most of them. My machine and software are now paid for in just under a year along with enough profit to keep my head above water.

[john_r]

This is exactly the type of info I was looking for.
Thanks to everyone for their input and continued success to all of you. I am working in a job that is going towards the automated world. ( I work with multi axis closed loop servo system lithography equipment.) That being the case a lot of people will be out of work, possibly myself included. I like, but don't love my day job and decided that if I was going to work hard for a living it was going to be something I love doing...woodworking. I've been in traditional furniture and cabinet classes for the last 2 years. I bought my shopbot with the hopes to improve my furniture making. I know doing furniture alone is a tough one to make a living at, but I can see the different possibilities of the shopbot. So when looking for contacts do you just cold call with samples in hand? Any luck with Designers. I ask because I worked in the custom flooring trades for about 12 years I started out in fabrication then did design and sales for 5 years with retail and wholesale clients. Cold calling them with samples wasn't an imposition, they loved seeing new stuff they could sell. I think I could market to them. I'm not sure how this approach would work with a sign shop or cabinet shop asking if I can cut parts for them.

Thanks again.

John

[gerald_d]

Our experience is that the sign and cabinet guys generally are very "traditional" and don't easily spend money on sub-contractors. The more "forward" thinkers are the décor, shopfitters, boatbuilders, architects.

Ask your MDF merchant who buys 10-20 sheets of MDF at a time.....

[elcruisr]

We actually put a salesman full time on the road for six months. It was alot of money covering his pay but it has paid off very well in the end. He often had to visit someone four or five times before they'd give us a try. Of the ones who tried us probably 60% have become regular customers. Gerald's right about traditional and forward thinkers. Old school die hards still seem to think that we are a woodshop and therefore their competitors so they won't bite. The other camp understand that we can help them do more and better work without buying more equipment or hiring more employees. We also do our finished woodworking for a very specialized niche and so therefore, realy are not their competition. A few of our best customers are now talking about making none of their own parts in house and having us cut everything they need. They have done the math and figured out they will make more money in the end with fewer headaches if they just assemble. They will also increase their production! This can be a very, very strong selling point when you are talking to potential commercial customers. Just make sure you can deliver as promised!

We have done a fair bit of work in the past for some small mom and pop sign companies by letting them do projects beyond their in house capabilities. We cut 'em, they finish 'em. It was never anything major but enough to be worthwhile for us. We also do work off and on for some product developers who need prototyping done. A final consideration that we have done some of is cutting and building sub assemblies for small manufacturers. We have not really pushed this much but I know of people who have built whole businesses around this idea.

Eric

[jsfrost]

I spend a lot of time lurking, and only make an occasional comment. But I wanted to thank all for their inputs. Many responses will be useful in helping establish my eventual business.

I currently work full time designing radios for an Automatic Meter Reading company and would like to continue. Long term, reality in corporate America makes that unlikely, and the Shopbot is my backup plan. I’ve talked to sign and cabinet shops and make an occasional sale. Mostly I’m in a learning mode, and try something new on the ‘Bot every weekend. Initially I planned to master Part Wizard, and then buy additional software matching whatever market seems an interesting opportunity. I now have the same plan, but have adjusted my expectation. If I’m lucky, Part Wizard will eventually master me.

Jim Frost

[jay]

John, yes working with designers is a real bonus. They can spec your product. Items go out to bid and you already have a leg-up. I have just recently remodeled and done the signage for two stores in the last month. Nice pay cheque.

All so meet regularly with a couple architects and have a couple of projects in the wings. But you have to invest the time in cultivating your contacts. I use the rule 2/3 shop time and 1/3 prospecting, be it on cold or warm prospects.

Yes, I do sign work but I cut more work for the sign companies than anything I produce on my own. Again the sign will be done in conjunction with or for the designer of the project.

I do not sell anything retail and my customers know that I will only supply someone else retailing and I guess that is why they keep giving us work because we are not competitors.

[john_r]

All of these responses are great, this would be why I chose to buy a shopbot over any other CNC router. Everyone always has great input and aren't afraid to share their ideas. As far as sign companies go, Is it common for sign companies sub out (those that don't have a router in house) dimensional cutting and do the painting and finishing themselves? While I think I could eventually cut a great sign...I don't see myself having the talent to paint. I see that there are quite a few sign guys here on the forum that look like they do it all, talented bunch for sure.

John

[jay]

The sign companies will often get you to cut
Dibond (Aluminum on 2 sides with PVC sandwiched in the middle),
Gatorboard (Foam sandwiched between 2 sheets of cardboard), and or
Sintra (PVC)
Acrylic
Lexan, etc.
on to which they will paint or apply vinyl.

[garbob]

Dibond!

What is it like to cut? Does it require compressed air spray or a liquid lubricant to cut the stuff? Any feed / speed ideas for a PRT with a 3 1/4hp router? What type of bits? Any info would be aprreciated.

I've never used it but it looks like nifty stuff for signs!

Gary

[jay]

Dibond comes in two thicknesses, 3mm and 4mm in almost a dozen colours. It is 48" x 96" and 48" x 120" in size. Cuts like butter. No lubricant or air spray. Cuts easily with standard cnc bit, the bigger the better the cut. I usually use a Onsrud upcut 52-936 or 52-910 or downcut 57-910 or 57-936 at 1.7"/sec. It is distributed by EM Plastics here in Canada.
EM Plastics Dibond (http://www.emplastic.com/index2.html/display?submit=product&product_id=96)
Hope this helps.

[jay_p]

Jay,

What kind of bit do you use to cut gatorboard?

Jay

[jay]

I have used the same bits as in the previous post.

[garbob]

It's nice to be able to have a starting point when using new material, especially aluminium (aluminum) which I have satyed away from.

Thanks for the advice!

Gary

[paco]

It's been about the second or third time I read this thread and it has givin' me some very useful hints.
Even if I did'nt started it; thanks to all for detailled informations!

December was encouraging but january is a p'etty boring month (for me); almost no jobs!... in fact only one that is samples... though for what look like a quite interesting bid (10 000 parts minimum a month year long!)... But this got me a chance to develop and improve some aspects of my buisness; time you wishing for to have when you are deep into... testing this and that...
I have spent many hours findings new customers to contact; e-mailing services offer, making phone calls... Woodworkers and furniture makers are, to me, the most hard to convice... I will focus now on some other niches like thoses suggest before...

I have a simple question though; what is a shopfitter? (I'm mainly french...) Dictionary have a definition for "shop" and for "fitter" but... should I combine?! I made a guess that it's professional who install new shop... some kind of maintenance professionals for shops...
Hope I don't sound too silly... 8-D

[gerald_d]

When you walk into a shop, you see:
-stock (the stuff that is for sale)
-people
-the building (walls, doors, windows)
-and then you see the really interesting stuff. A lot of it. That the "Shopfitter" designs, produces and installs = shelves, counters, décor. Visit your shopping mall and take a new look at what is inside of it.


In other words, the shopfitter (http://www.learndirect-advice.co.uk/helpwithyourcareer/jobprofiles/profiles/profile1374/) is the "furniture" producer for the shop. A Google on shopfitters (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD:2004-43%2CGGLD:en&q=shopfitters)

[paco]

Well thanks!

[john_r]

Well that day is closer than I thought. Corporate America is pushing me out the door...basically telling me step it up or step out...every year they want more, more, more for the same money. My boss just told me that if you can't do your job as well as everyone elses, that they are replacing, you will fail and be a failure...nice huh? By the way this company has over 100K employee's, they profit over 10 Billion a quarter and are not on the top one hundred places to work...actually they have one of the highest heart attack and suicide rates for corporate america, while their shareholders and board members dance to the bank. I know myself my health has gone in the crapper in the last 2 years due to stress and lack of sleep. They have been steadily replacing people with automation for the last 5 years. Well you can only ask so much of a man...right? OK, so here I am again asking about starting you own shopbot based business Anyone have any advice on how to get it going? I live in a large metropolitan area. I just don't where to start...any advice from you Shopbotters would be great.

[paco]

Hi John!

First, don't get fouled into thinking that starting your own buisnees is'nt stressfull... just different... healthy kinda stress is you ask me!
84

I've read jdrguitar in your e-mail adress; what about the guitar part?!
85... maybe I'm way off here and it's part of your/a name...

How are you doing so far with your tool? What have you done with it since you first got it?

I'd say that you might have quite of a background as to how a buisness should be run (from your actual (previous?) employment... what do you think?! What are your major concerns about astarting on your own?

Regarding your last question; it all start with an idea... and a spark!

[john_r]

Hi Paco,
Thanks for you reply.
I agree on the stress...I guess at least the stress will be different. I fail or suceed on my own merits. Being pitted against my own co-workers is one of the biggest stresses at work right now. It's so bad I'm ready to resign with no other job...I've never done that in my 35 years on this planet.
As far as the guitar, I play guitar, classical and flamenco. I have thought about making custom foot rests or guitar stands, but marketing seems to be a stumbling point. Also it's a small market. I have some other unique ideas that maybe marketable. I just don't how to get it to market...cold calling isn't one of my specialties. I have thought different customers that I could help, but what is it I would say? Hi can I cut some stuff for you? I know there are a ton of cabinet shops and Sign shops in the area...I just don't even know what I'd offer to cut for them. I used to be in sales and design, but I worked from a showroom where people (Wholesale and retail) were coming to see what we had to offer. It was easy to sale to them, I had a captive auidience <--- spelling? As far as my SB experience goes, I had a PR96 that I set up and did mostly experimenting with to see if I could learn it. I feel I have enough of the basics to make 2D parts on it. I have since sold that machine and I'm putting together a PRT120 right as we speak. I thought about getting into a plasma cutting with it but I enjoy woodworkng too much and figure if it was going to be for me It should be something I enjoy.
As far as software and what I'm comfortable with I am comfortable in Coreldraw, a little autocad, and a little 3D stuff so I think I with a little more time with the software I could cut just about anything.
I do understand good business ethics, delivering and keeping customers happy, I think I'm really trying to figure out how to market myself and a company. I think thats the major part of my concern.

John

[paco]

John,

you got the speach!... you just need to more confident about all your potential and a kick! Make samples and see what your potential customers say about it... While visiting, you'll mostly be asked "How much for this and that?"; if you don't know right away, ask 'em to send projects to quote. Better yet, start right now figuring about your fee; hourly or else. Cold call I don't like neither; I prefer "warm visit" at customer's place... I only call to say I'm coming! Do you have a WWW site to have pics available along with some desciption of your services?!... basic WWW site are VERY cheap (often FREE; ask your internet provider). Signs and cabinet buisness are good starts for sub work. As for marketing yourself, I believe you'll be your best advocate since you know yourself better than anybody else! See how other are marketing themselves around you; here in Québec, Canada, buisnees is different for some aspect such as marketing... not black and white but my wording might just be suit for anybody around the world...

I believe SB as a program about starting a SB based CNC routing buisness...

Pick up books... so you'll just read and learn... that you already know most of this! Don't forget that everyday, YOU ARE A CUSTOMER to other buisness... so, how do you think one should get in contact with you if you would be a potential?

Recently, there have been a thread named "wording" I believe; make a search and you should find it. There we're some nice tips in it from fellow Botters...

[davidallen]

John,

If you're stressed over competition by co-workers, how are you going to feel over competition by other companies?

Companies that have been there longer, have established relationships and are willing to take a short term loss in order to run the smaller, marginal shops (i.e. you) out of business?

Money without freedom is a royal pain, the only thing worse is freedom without money.

Several years ago, I was laid off and started something similar to what you're thinking. 10 months later, I was barely paying the rent and had added $25K to credit card debt. I'm still paying it off.

A lof of people have made the transition and are deservedly proud of what they've done. I'm not saying don't do it, Just listen to all of the reasons why it won't work and if you still feel you want to do it then learn to swim before jumping off the boat in the middle of the ocean.

Like you, marketing and sales were my main problems. I was technically competent but just couldn't close the deals.

Before you walk away, make sure you have the cash to run in the red for a year at least and while you're saving, take some classes or a part time job in the areas where you need experience.

Two jobs may be rough, but on your own, you will be working 12 to 16 hour days, 6 and 7 days a week.

If you're going to have to work hard and learn new skills, why not learn to cope and become a star in the area you know? Maybe your current employer isn't the best environment, but they're not the only house on the block. There are companies that appreciate first class hard workers. There are even companies that can't afford them and appreciate mediocre hard workers.

If yours is one of the jobs that's being oursourced overseas, then move to India and manage one of the outsourcing companies.

There are solutions, maybe not the solutions you want. Maybe you'll have to want the solutions that are available.

The secret to happiness is self-delusion. Chant with me now, "I am happy in my work, I am happy in my work, I am happy in my work, ....."


da

[djmcnutt]

John,

Let me tell you the corprate world is not what everyone thinks. On Dec 6 the very large company I work for decide to take away funding the pentions. One good thing at least I will get what I have but no more, then to top it off they said buy the way you won't get insurance also. So that's a big kick in the face. All of this while the CEO takes home over $13M a year. Let me tell you one thing in todays world you have to look out for yourself and don't depend on anyone else. Today I have no ShopBot but I have been in planing now for almost 1.5 years and I will say before the end of 2006 I will have a new shop and a Bot to go in it. Two years ago I decided to foucs on me and quit working 10-12 hours a day and getting paid for 8. I decide that I would take that time, plus more and foucs on my plan. I will comtinue to work but I would expect that within 3 years I will be on my own. So my advise is look for a nitch that no one else is doing and foucs on it everyday and hour you can. And your dream will come true but don't quit your job until you have to. That weekly pay check will make life much easer. Good luck....

[bleeth]

John: Get over your fear of cold-calling. Rejection is part of sales and it is not personal. It is always about the numbers-More calls equals more business. To be self employed you need to be brazen. The hardest part is actually balancing all those self employment chores that do not produce direct cash income with those that do. Learning curves involved in developing your machine and design skillls, purchasing research, shop maintainence, bookkeeping, etc. can really eat into production time in a one man show.
Not wishing to put you off-There are rewards of self-employment you will never get in the corporate world. Good-Luck

Dave

[earld]

John-
There are alot of resouces available for starting a small business.
The "Dummies" series of books are excellent and are filled with solid, common sense information and are as good as what you get in college. www.dummies.com (http://www.dummies.com).
Another source is "www.sba.gov (http://www.sba.gov)", which is the Small Business Administration web site. Their main pitch is the business plan, which is not bad for working out alot of bugs prior to start up. There have been substantial resources put into small business development over the last few years and is available to help you get going after you have answered all the right questions (for yourself).
And, not to discourage you but to give you some perspective, the SBA will tell you up front that no matter how good you are technically with your trade, you will fail without business skills. Something like 80% of new businesses fail for this reason. I have worked for small companies that were enviable in their skills area, but failed because they couldn't keep the books.
On marketing- you never know where an oppertunity will come from. Usually the most unlikely places. Develop some samples and let them sell themselves. Get into a service club and meet other small business people- they are proud of what they have accomplished and are very willing to share their experiences.
And, finally, believe that you can do it. Attitude works for you and against you. Master it.
Earl

[billp]

John,
You can also contact the local office of "S.C.O.R.E" (service corps of retired executives). They will arrange a meeting for you with someone who has prior experience in running a business similar to what you envision. They act as a mentor in getting your business up and running. The service is free, and if you are lucky enough to have someone in your area with years of experience in your field, take advantage of it...You can usually find them in your phone listing, or just Google them to get a local address.

[john_r]

I want to thank all of you for your responses and for emailing me directly. This is certainly a wonderful group of people on this forum.

John