Ready to give up on HSD

[Eppert]

Spindles are the cat's meow for cutting on a shopbot but, my luck with bearings with HSD is quickly driving me nuts. My first spindle lasted approx. 1 year 4 months. My second spindle lasted 7 months and my third (out of the box) is doing the same thing. Maybe it is something else I am doing. Here are my symptoms / problems.

Start-up:
A serious grinding noise coming from the lower bearings:eek:
once ran through the warm-up cycle:
too hot to hold your hand on outside of spindle
during cutting:
sporadically during cutting a vibration noise / grinding noise that rivals that of running a router (actually louder than running a router) and more vibration on the part than I can sand out without changing the shape.

During the install of the newest spindle I made sure all bolts were not bottoming out (plate to spindle and plate to machine) I am within .004" in a 24" span of being lvl to the machine / table)

All 3 spindles have done the same thing once I begin to hear that awful start up grinding noise.

90% of my cuts are as follows
5/16" 2 flute up-cut
RPM: 18,000
Plunge: .5 IPS
Cut rate: 2.4 IPS

Material: 3/4 Advantec (like a combo between OSB and Particle Board but, water resistant) or 3/4" Plywood.

Things I have already tried:
new collet, new nut, new cutter (I already replace cutter around once per week.
Different diam. cutter / nut / collet
Faster feed speed = worse vibration / noise
going slow enough to burn up my cutter = less noise / ruined cutter and material

Any help advise would be greatly appreciated:confused:

Thank you,
Troy

[adrianm]

My HSD 2.2 is coming on three years old now with lots of use on MDF, plywood and hardwoods. Still running as sweet as the day I got it.

Are you ramping into cuts? One thing I've always done with mine is to make sure that I specify a ramp of some sort on every cut.

Not sure if it's strictly necessary with these spindles or not but I've read about people having problems with the bearings chipping on some spindles with straight plunges into the material.

18k rpm seems a bit high for that feed rate (although I'm not familiar with Advantec). Usually I'm running between 13k and 15k only going up to 18k with single flute cutters.

[CNYDWW]

Are you doing a lot of drilling with the spindle? Not the expert but i've read several times that the spindles are not meant for a lot of drilling operation.

Regards
Randy

[Brady Watson]

If you keep wiping out bearings, I'd be tempted to point at high thrust loads like drilling or plunging straight down using a non-center cutting bit. Also, it sounds like the original one has a bent mainshaft - might be worth looking into. 18k RPM sounds a bit excessive for the move speed you indicate and you could be cooking the bearings and overheating them...which sounds partially what you have going on at the moment.

You should not be seeing slop in the cut quality because of spindle run out...ever. If this is the case, and you are certain that the rest of the tool is tuned, lubed and adjusted tightly, then the spindle is trashed.

-B

[MogulTx]

Spindle is properly wired, right? You have checked it, and don't have one of the three phase legs wired to the Common or something...?

I don't see mention of warming the spindle up (at least not that I recall from reading the above...) do you do the warm up routine every time? It is 10 minutes out of your life, but it is time that is probably going to be spend prepping materials anyway...

I run 2.5 to 2.7 with a 1/4" bit into a semi-hard material, but I limit the bit to 1/4 depth and then even ramp it so that I only get 1/4" per revolution- with the machine not being side loaded very hard at all. It might take my cut another minute or two, but I am not taxing the spindle.

I am using a 4hp HSD, that came from a cabinet shop. Spindle is about 4 years old, and I have no idea how many hours are on it. It sounds like you may be over-loading it, at a high speed- where it is likely to be most fragile

I have also only used 18K RPM one time, to check out various speeds with a soft material. I do run in the 15-17K category if I am cutting foam- but thats the only time. And the foam gives no resistance...

Those are my observations- Brady and some others seemed to have some good comments. Let us know how you make out on this.

[Eppert]

MGM;
From the original post,

Start-up:
A serious grinding noise coming from the lower bearings
once ran through the warm-up cycle:
too hot to hold your hand on outside of spindle

I actually warm up the spindle much longer than necessary or suggested. Like you said in the earlier statement about spending time prepping. I hit start then work on prep. Normally about 15 minutes or so. (first 9/k, then 13/k then 18/k)

On the wiring, I will double check but, I did have a union electrician wire it for me (Nice having a neighbor that's a licensed union electrician)

I will be more than happy to try a slower RPM but, it seems as though that will cause more pressure on the spindle than what I am already applying?? I'll give 16/k tonight and see how it goes.

Yes I do A LOT more plunging than I would like to but, I only have a PRS standard so, I can't add a pneumatic drill to it until I get an upgrade. Another issue with the plunging is that I only have PartsWizard so I don't have a ramp down (spiral down to 0, whatever that is called??) feature within the software. Maybe I should bite-the-bullet and buy Part Works? Can that help my issue?

I received an email from someone else as well requesting that I add even more ground wires than I already have to insure that somehow I'm not getting a ground issue near the bearings themselves. (easy to add if it helps)

Does anyone have a number for HSD? All I can find is an International number to Italy. Do they have an office within the States? I would like to see if they will at least repair the spindle that only lasted 7 months.

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions,
Troy

[michael_schwartz]

MGM;
From the original post,

Yes I do A LOT more plunging than I would like to but, I only have a PRS standard so, I can't add a pneumatic drill to it until I get an upgrade. Another issue with the plunging is that I only have PartsWizard so I don't have a ramp down (spiral down to 0, whatever that is called??) feature within the software. Maybe I should bite-the-bullet and buy Part Works? Can that help my issue?



Ramping into the cut, would most certainly be an improvement. I think it would be worth upgrading to part works for this reason.
I run a porter cable router, but I have found it to be essential to ramp plunge moves, whenever possible.

[jerry_stanek]

I agree that 18k is a little fast I run mine at 10 to 14k

[dlcw]

My HSD 2.2 is coming on three years old now with lots of use on MDF, plywood and hardwoods. Still running as sweet as the day I got it.

Are you ramping into cuts? One thing I've always done with mine is to make sure that I specify a ramp of some sort on every cut.



When using compression mortise bits to cut expensive veneer plywood, melamine or P-LAM material, you have to plunge at least past the upcut part of the bit. I've found if I ramp these bits in I get really horrible chipping on the veneer/melamine/P-LAM until the upcut part of the bit goes below the edge on the downcut part of the bit kicks in.

My 2.2HP spindle was installed in mid 2009 and is still going strong.

[jhedlund58]

i agree.. guessin u runnin too fast... i don't do ramps.. yet.. but i run at 14000 rpm to 16000 rpm max and have not had a problem... i old and retired... doesn't matter to me if part run a little longer... VERY HAPPY with my SHOPBOT.. probably shoulda got a bigger one.. but my shop is probably smaller than most... like i said very happy!!!

[tmerrill]

Don,

You can specify a lead-in with a ramp - that keeps the surface damage away from the final cut edge.

Will that work for what you are doing?

Tim

[dlcw]

Tim -

that is true in Aspire but in SBLink there is no such thing as a lead in with ramp. You can either plunge or ramp. I plunge about 1/4" past the upcut part of the MC bit and then ramp from there down to cutting depth. I do most of my panel cutting from the SBLink not Aspire.

[MogulTx]

Troy,

The software upgrade is WAY cheaper than a spindle and will add capabilities... I recommend that you consider it when you have a few $...

MGM

[michael_schwartz]

Tim -

I plunge about 1/4" past the upcut part of the MC bit and then ramp from there down to cutting depth. I do most of my panel cutting from the SBLink not Aspire.

The link does make this, quite simple to do. It would be nice to have such a feature in PW and Aspire.

[gene]

Aspire does have a ramp down feature in it

[ianppk]

i had similar problems on a 4hp spindle,shopbot was no help at all,in the end after hours and hours of turmoil,a few thousand dollars in parts and ruined cuts i dissasembled the spindle and found the main power line was completely torn free from its housing on the front of the spindle-there was almost an inch between connectors! it was just arcing! guess who did it? the tech from shopbot who i paid 3k to come tune up my system!
check your main line at the front of the spindle,
check all your connections in your vfd
be wary of advice from the makers - it seems like they are more interested in money than their reputation!

[michael_schwartz]

Aspire does have a ramp down feature in it

You are correct. To clarify I was referring to a specific feature found in the link, which is slightly different.

Of course it would distract from the original topic for me to discuss that further, and ramping has already been discussed as a potential solution so I will defer to Mr. Eppert.

[Eppert]

Well I have done a few things since my last post.
Changed RPM to 15/k
Changed feed speed to 3.5 IPS (4.0 IPS caused the servo's to clutch out :mad:)

I purchased Part Works yesterday as well. I was going to just start changing all of my toolpaths over last night but, there appears to be a slight learning curve from PartWizard to Part Works (Might need to hit up the tutorials :o)
This evening I will open the VFD and check all connections along with run a secondary ground from spindle to VFD.

Thank you for all the advise and opinions. I will keep updating as I find / try other things (except the week long vacation next week :D)

I am still unable to locate an American service number for HSD but, I do have their email now so, I will send them the info about this situation as well.

Thanks again,
Troy

[nat_wheatley]

HSD USA Inc.
3764 SW 30 Avenue
33312 - Fort Lauderdale, FL (USA)
Tel: +1 954 587 1991
Fax: +1 954 587 8338
web: www.hsdusa.com

[Eppert]

Well since our last discussion, I figured I would let everyone know where I stand on HSD spindles and what all I have done.

Just so there is no confusion; I am still very happy with Shopbot CNC's BUT, HSD still another issue.

Since the last discussion I have purchased and put in place Partworks using ramps on all cuts as well as upgraded to an Alpha system. (In fact in the last 2 years by upgrading and working my Yawhoo off, I have quit my day job, moved from a garage to a 3800' shop and moved from there into a 8500' shop all with 1 Shopbot) I now run 17/k RPM with a 6IPS feed speed. This falls within a safe range on the chip load and seems to be a good enough finish for everything I do. After talking with Shopbot on the last spindle, basically, there isn't warranties on the spindles due to too many "goof-ups" from new users. I however, without so much as one crash now have yet another spindle bearing going out. Not real sure my options but, up for ideas!?

[gene]

I cut 3/4 plywood single pass at 13k 2 flute compression cutter with my spindle . i think its 6 or 7 yrs old

[Brady Watson]

Not real sure my options but, up for ideas!?

Yes. Ditch the HSD and buy a Colombo. A lot more spindle for a little more money. I rebuilt mine when it got a little noisy. I probably could have just left it alone. It's now 12yrs old and has at least 750,000 parts on it. SB sells them via the 'secret menu'.

-B

[mcmark]

One thing I never do is run my spindle at 18K. Actually most of what I do is 3K, 6K, or 10K depending on the material. The spindle nose is only slightly warm after a days use. Plus at a lower RPM, there's less airborne particles. The chip just falls to the table. My 2.2 HSD is about 6 or 7 years old and the previous owner wasn't anywhere near as kind to it as I am.

[rb99]

Sounds to me like you are using your spindle many more hours per day/week/month/year than the average SB owner, so your bearings are wearing out. They do wear out... I have read about Columbo spindle owners getting similar use between rebuilds as you. I think you need 2 spindles, so when 1 is getting new bearings/serviced you have the other to keep going with.

[jerry_stanek]

Is the fan working properly when you say it gets real hot

[Eppert]

Sorry I didn't state this in the last message, with the current RPM / feed speed, heat from the spindle really hasn't been much of an issue. I do think that I was creating excessive heat with my old configuration.

I would like to have the ability to run at a slower RPM and lower the feed speed a bit BUT, of course time is money. I am currently working 12 ~ 16 hrs a day 7 days a week and turn away customers on a regular basis (what a terrible problem to have right :D) I truly need to purchase 2 more CNC's but, that isn't in the cards after the recent move. I have a local rep for Columbo but, I will have Shopbot take the first crack at it.

I have no issues with having to replace bearings (I came from the moulding industry and am well trained in replacing Thrust bearings) I understand the fact a bearing is a wearable item but, Anyone ever found someone that can / will rebuild an HSD for a DECENT price?

[Eppert]

Is the fan working properly when you say it gets real hot

Yes it is and I keep it cleaned off on a regular basis. I would love to be able to say (facepalm) no but, I like to create way better challenges for the fine folks here on the forum:)

[Brady Watson]

These little spindles are throw aways, sorry to say. They don't offer rebuilds on them because they are just like your blender. It costs more to fix and is more trouble than it's worth. Just go out an get a new one. Frustrating I know, but reality nonetheless. Who is going to pay $500 for bearings, plus 4 to 6hrs shop time on top of that, plus supplies on a spindle that costs less to just buy?

I would still get a Colombo. They *seem* to outlast the HSDs about 3:1 from what I have seen on the road. Of course your results may vary.

-B

[Gary Campbell]

Troy...
A couple other items to consider:

The HSD spindles come with an "S6" service or duty cycle AND a percentage. Percentages run 40, 50, 60.... %, etc. Your manual will have the proper number for your spindle.

S6 means that the spindle can be run continuous, with the load vs unloaded mixed at the given percentage. For example 60% would be periods of load 60% of the time, the other 40 would have to be run unloaded to ensure it wouldnt over heat. IF, and I say If because I dont have the AMP data to support your loading, you are running extended times with the tool loaded, your solution would be to use a higher HP spindle, which would reduce the load on the spindle motor.

My experience teills me that you are not oveloading the spindle, due to your listed feed and rpm settings. What I believe could be happening is that you are running the rpm too high, creating heat, and that heat is cooking the bottom bearings due to extended run times.

The best (and cheapest) test would be to use a digital thermometer to monitor your bit temperature over a days cutting. If the bit gets over 135 degrees, the chipload is too light. Light chiploads do not remove enought heat from the bit, dull it faster, and create heat due to flute rubbing in the cut where material has been removed. This gets worse as cutting continues.

I have not tested this with your bits and material, but I would bet that a 5/16 bit at 6 ips would run best somewhare around 13K rpm, when sharp. Excess rpm can heat up, and therefore dull a bit in a few minutes. How many times a day do you change them? Are they new or resharps?

BTW, Brady is correct, the higher priced Columbos do have a more expensive bearing set, they also have a heavier bearing housing that dissapates heat faster. A pay me now, or pay me later, that only a few with extreme cut times ever have to learn.

Hope this helps.

[Eppert]

Gary,
Yes you are right it is an S6. However 99.9% of my runs are around 1.5 minutes to 1-2 minutes load ~ unload.
From all of the help that I have received via email, phone calls and the forum, it appears all the veterans have similar advise which is to lesson the RPM's (Like you had just said) I do, however, wonder if I may want to increase feed speed, lesson the RPM's a bit and just go 2 passes. It doesn't appear to cost me much time but, may save me a bit of money.

Just for poops and giggles, I am going to replace the ceramic bearings in one of my HSD paper weights with a "standard" bearing just as an emergency back-up / trial. Curiosity has finally gotten the best of me with ceramic bearings.

On the temp monitor All I have done so far is a hillbilly test. (grabbed with my fingers :eek: ) never have had one of them close to burning me. And no it wasn't spinning for the smartallicks out there

[Eppert]

Gene; I just caught your reply about cutting single pass ( How I missed it BAH) What diameter compression bit are you using and, is the finish acceptable or pretty "choppy"

[gene]

I am using a 2 flute 1/4" compression 13K single pass columbo spindle

[Eppert]

It seems I have a few different things going against me that is causing the issue.

1) If you start using a CNC with a router and not a spindle, you will be a "chicken" at using the proper chip loads 4-EVER :)
2) Even with using 3 rotary vein pumps in series, using the "proper" chipload can prove to be exciting. Sometimes an exciting projectile across the shop floor. :eek:
3) Up until reading the forums and chatting with people, NEVER cut deeper than twice the depth of the cutter. I have since learned that isn't really the case. Maybe on the heavy iron's cause they are pushed so hard but, doesn't appear to be true in the land of shopbot.

AND my favorite, I have something apparently loose but can't find it :confused: I have and can build and re-build 1/4 million dollar moulders but, can't figure out why I have vibration bad enough that I can see my spindle bouncing back and fourth. when I'm not running I can't find a %^&^#$% thing with any play

I am now currently testing and re-testing tools, feed speeds and cutters. This has been much fun since I have 287 profiles I run on a regular basis. not that having to rewrite programs CONSTANTLY is a bit of a burden ;)

[gerryv]

Are you running a PRT or PRS?

Re Vibration: What brand of collets and what condition are they in, including if there is anything jammed in the slots? Any buildup inside the chuck? Are all V-groove rollers snug to the track and always turning?

[larry_k]

can you still get clombo spindles though shopbot?

larry

[Brady Watson]

Yes. Call them for details.

-B

[Eppert]

Sorry it took so long to reply.
To update / reply;
Just to be on the safe side, I installed a new nut and collet along with a new cutter (Thanks Gary. The 1/4" compression works perfect)
However, I'm pretty sure I just found the problem. While cutting, I literally watched the spindle "bounce" while it was cutting. Aside from using industrial clamps to tighten motors, they are as tight as "I think" the motors should be. The gears are only 7 months old so I started looking a little closer and think I found it. There is visual wear on the Z axis V-guides ( 3 out of 4!?) To test my theory I am waiting for the glue to dry on a 1.5" spacer to lift my spoiler board. (puts the cutter 3/4" above the wear line) Even if this isn't the only thing wrong I do need to replace them. Anyone know where to get them or should I just contact Shopbot in the morning?

I'll update as soon as I fire back up a little later tonight. (still have 8 hrs of cutting to get done before 8 AM tomorrow. (fingers crossed)

[MogulTx]

How many hours do you have on that machine? It would be fairly unusual for those v rollers to just bail out on you... You DO know that there are ECCENTRIC ADJUSTMENTS for those rollers, right? I forget how many of them are adjustable. I believe there are a couple of them. You should have a funny, fork looking wrench that is used to spin them when they are loose, then you tighten them up...

[Eppert]

How many hours do you have on that machine? It would be fairly unusual for those v rollers to just bail out on you... You DO know that there are ECCENTRIC ADJUSTMENTS for those rollers, right? I forget how many of them are adjustable. I believe there are a couple of them. You should have a funny, fork looking wrench that is used to spin them when they are loose, then you tighten them up...

MGM: Yes I am aware that they are adjustable and they are as tight as you would ever want them everywhere except about a 3/4" section (where I run 99% of my cuts. As far as how many hours, I have no idea but, I keep it busy and it is 6.5 years old. :D They have served me well during their lifetime and will be missed but, gotta keep going

[Brady Watson]

T-rails by themselves are no longer sold by ShopBot. You'd have to invest in a RetroZ or make your own replacement.

If your Z only has 4 roller bearings, consider upgrading to 8 (4 more) - this makes a substantial difference in longevity. If you install them in an area where they will roll without ever touching the worn rail portions, you could buy yourself some time without going thru goofy things like padding your spoilboard 1.5"...

-B

[Eppert]

Couple updates: (Sry we are off subject of HSD spindles)
Since I may have said it wrong, on the Z mount there are 8 bearings and 4 v-guides. There is a "groove" wore into 3 of the 4 guides at 6 of the 8 bearing locations.
That being said, I did go ahead and use the spacer and try again. Only helped a little bit, but running at .0125" chip load the Spindle still tries to jump clean off the CNC. at .0097" Chip load, it runs much better but, the cutter is squealing and the saw dust is pretty warm. (trying to stop cooking bearings on spindles, kind of a bad habbit) Once I switched over and ran some Advantec instead of plywood then I could run it at .011 without much problem. If I didn't mention all of this is from running 3/4 plywood and 3/4 Advantec.

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe I need a full overhaul and go through everything with a fine tooth comb :confused: I truly hope not just for the simple fact, I already run 7 days a week. Not sure catching up from a rebuild is something my body is going to be able to handle.

[Brady Watson]

Take care of your equipment & it will take care of you. A stitch in time saves nine. If your money maker needs something, you better start chucking a few bucks into the kiddie for whatever parts it needs. As an owner/operator you have to ask yourself what you would do if the machine went down. Could you afford to fix it and make up for the lost work? That is often answered with how you can't afford not to fix it NOW in order to prevent down time. Preventative maintenance is money in the bank, and stress off of your shoulders. It sounds to me from what you are saying, that your machine is already considered down...or at best, limping along. Those are tough conditions to put yourself through...but there are solutions available to get your machine back up to spec.

-B

[Eppert]

Kind of the same thoughts I'm having. Up until I found out I was running WAY too slow, it didn't appear to have any issues. Now that I am trying to run it "properly" I am finding that she needs a little TLC. I have always been very good about grease and keeping the wheels clean and never noticed any issues so left well enough alone. Not that I am here I need to take care of the problem properly.
Sooooo do I go at it alone like always or do it the right way and have a pro come in!? Hey Brady whatcha doing this weekend lol it's only about 700 miles or so :)

I'll give bot a call in the AM and start pricing all the parts to do a full rebuild. Although not in the cards, when my CNC is what feeds the kids, it needs to stay running at all costs. Timing is just a bit bad. (always is)

[Brady Watson]

Actually...today is the first week day I have been home in about 3 weeks...I've been everywhere, man ;)

-B