V-CARVING Formica Laminate

[Chuck Keysor]

Hello Shopbot experts and fans. Does V-carving of Formica laminate (glued onto particle board) present any risks to my nice CMT Laser brand V bits?

I have been warned about cutting some other materials in the past, because they were very abrasive. So before I cut into this salvaged/free Formica clad particle board, I want to make sure I don't regret it later by possibly finding excessive wear on my bit.

Your advice is appreciated. Thanks, Chuck

[bleeth]

It ain't the laminate that will get ya-it's the "who knows what" that may lurk in the particle board!!

[jerry_stanek]

It ain't the laminate that will get ya-it's the "who knows what" that may lurk in the particle board!!


It is the laminate. Laminate is very hard on bits and dulls them quickly. The backer is the same material as brake liners.

[adrianm]

Could you run a shallow pocket toolpath with an end mill to just break through and remove most of the laminate before the VCarve toolpath?

[paul_z]

I no longer cut particle board. Several years ago I ruined a carbide tipped saw blade when it hit a 1/4" long piece of steel that was in the board. When I took a closer look at the board, I could see flecks of metal on the surface.

If there was ever a time to use cheap bits, this would be it.

Paul Z

[Chuck Keysor]

Thank you Dave, Jerry, Adrian and Paul. I will simply throw away my free piece of Formica clad particle board. Once again this shows that nothing is really free! Thanks, Chuck

[maxheadroom]

Brake pad material? Wow, where did that come from,china?? You know, the same country that used melamine as an additive in pet food. I've used laminates for decades, and know exactly how wrong that is:

Five second google search: brake pad material:

Brake pad materials range from asbestos to organic or semi-metallic formulations. Each of these materials has proven to have advantages and disadvantages regarding environmental friendliness, wear, noise, and stopping capability. Semi-metallic pads provide strength and conduct heat away from rotors but also generate noise and are abrasive enough to increase rotor wear.

Ceramic compounds and copper fibers in place of the semi-metallic pad's steel fibers accommodate higher temperatures with less heat fade and generate less dust and wear on both the pads and rotors.
IF laminates were made from brake pad material, laminate would be more expensive, and hazardous to work with.

Asbestos, semi metalic, ceramic????

From experience (working with said material), and another five second google search, from the woodworking council:

For Durability, color clarity and flexibility Formica®High Pressure Laminates (HPL) are made from specially selected kraft and printed papers impregnated with thermosetting synthetic resins and fused together under heat and high-pressure in a controlled environment to form single high-density sheets of laminates.

'I no longer cut particle board. Several years ago I ruined a carbide tipped saw blade when it hit a 1/4" long piece of steel that was in the board. When I took a closer look at the board, I could see flecks of metal on the surface.' Another china import?

Material as described above come from small local lumber yards, Lowes and Home Depot - maybe, but doubtful. Wholesale lumber suppliers do not sell cheap PB, since they sell furniture grade PB, which is totally different from cheap, bargain basement material; or material made in china. Besides, who in the world would be using PB for signs, that is not only heavy, but limited for interior use, and soaks up paint like a sponge!

Routing laminate: works like a charm with ANY quality, carbide bit.

Ever been in Windy's, Mc Donald's, Taco Bell or your favorite local fast food stop? Next time look around: laminate is in use on their counters, waste bins, and menu boards, that has been either laser cut or router cut. The trash bins have 'trash' engraved, most all are engraved laminate... I know, I've engraved my fair share.....

[jerry_stanek]

We only use about 2000 sheets year where I work so I guess I may be wrong about wear on bits.

[maxheadroom]

Using that quantity, I'd guess your boss produces either counter tops or laminated case work. Why does he continue to use laminate, since it's so hard on the bits, or is he using diamond bits? What type of bits does he use?

Cabinet and speciality shops around the world use carbide trim bits to trim laminate. They have replaceable cutters that can be changed out in a minute, and are generally sold in packs of 5 at a very reasonable cost. HSS can also be used, but is not as practical as carbide, just cheaper for the casual user.

Bits, as are any cutting tool, are consumables: tools or materials used to do a job, that will wear out and will need to be re sharpened, or eventually replaced. Going through those 2000 sheets will require a lot of sharpening and or replacement.

As far as 'hard on the tool', using the tool on any material will cause wear, some more than other. That's why you change the bit when it gets dull, or have a saw blade re sharpened rather than tell a customer you can't work with certain materials because they wear your tools out.

Facts are necessary for factual information: 1. In general, all laminates are made of kraft papers, bound together with resins, 2. Laminates are not made from brake liner material, at least not brands as Formica, Wilson Art, Pionite, Nevarmar, and about a dozen other manufactures. 3. Yes, cutting / engraving laminate will cause wear, just as many other materials will, but it's going to take a very long run, especially on a CNC, before you see noticeable wear.

Routing solid oak, birch, teak, dibond, aluminum, brass,etc will all cause wear on bits to varying degrees. When the tool gets dull, have it sharpened, or replace it. That's part of the business.

Chuck, when initializing for engraving, always init off the material, not the table. This will give a more accurate depth of cut, and cleaner letters.

The cutter is a tool, it's made to be used, not admired. Put it to use, and admire the work you do. :-)

[nat_wheatley]

Laminate is brutal on router bits. If you main intent for that bit is to cut other materials, I'd avoid the laminate.

[jerry_stanek]

We produce Trade Show displays and POP displays. We have the carbide bits sharpened and with the kind of work diamond bits are to expensive over all

[maxheadroom]

Thanks Jerry, just curious. Going through that quantity, you had to be doing something like that.

w

[Ajcoholic]

It is pretty common knowledge in the woodworking industry that all HPL (high pressure laminates) are indeed layers of kraft paper, with a printed sheet on top, saturated with a resin and cured in a hot press. Certainly nothing exotic, material wise.

Yes, HPL will wear bits faster than most common soft & hard woods. But, although I dont use a ton of this stuff I have used enough over the years (mainly for making my own countertops) that a decent carbide router bit can last quite some time.

Why not buy a cheaper brazed carbide V bit, and use it for the HPL stuff? Bits are pretty cheap.

As for particle board - I go through a lot of cabinet grade, particle board core plywood, and yes, if you buy decent stuff it should be free of "nails, screws and other surprises". That being said, I have found a few odds and ends (once, a wood screw) cutting up some material. But that was some junk someone else had brought to my shop for me to cut for them.

Just my 2 cents Canadian! :)

AJC

[bleeth]

Jeez-I just had a great idea.
The next time I get invited to bid on a clinic full of casework I'm going to stipulate that my cabinets will be built out of whatever material I decide will cause the least wear and tear on my router bits.

Chuck-I'm sorry if I convinced you to not carve a little laminate on particle board. I was only trying to point out that particle board has been known to have strange foreign particles in it. But that being said, it is and will be a major product used in the production of cabinets and closets for the foreseeable future just as laminate is. If you are going to be serious about using your tool for production casework, or even think you might, sooner or later you will be cutting it.

One of my best friends fought it for years saying "we only build wood cabinets" but a paycheck is a paycheck and one day I heard "I'm cutting a bunch of melamine cab parts for a guy".

As far as cutting laminate goes-It is a reliable and predictable material that is here to stay and if you can't figure the cost of tooling as an expense of a job just like rags, masking tape, or glue you are in the wrong business.

A tool bit is a tool bit and simply a disposable item to be used to help earn a living while it is sharp and tossed or resharpened when it isn't. Not exactly something to wax poetic over.

[maxheadroom]

Bingo!

78910 (needs 10 characters to post!>?)

[Chuck Keysor]

Hello and thanks everyone. Being a newbie, I do ask for advice because I intend to follow it if clear cut up-down direction is provided. So, at first, it seemed like a slam dunk, avoid cutting laminated particle board. By the time I had read the first contradictory reply, saying go ahead, cut the Formica/particle board, I had already cut up the sample and tossed it in the trash!

With that said, I am not looking to make cabinets. What I am investigating though is material that is suitable for engraving of indoor signage and carving artistic 2D plaques. So some of the later comments indicated clearly that I need to experiment with Formica on various substrates.

Thanks, Chuck

PS/Note:
A few months ago, I posted a question about making 2D carvings of images, such as the attached owl. The tests I have made so far with MDF and melamine/MDF core proved to be total failures, as the MDF crumbled in areas of too much detail, and the melamine laminate would actually pop off when there were small islands of white. Carving in solid wood has produced much better results, ie details don't crumble. And carving of some good plywood has also been much better than MDF. My expectation that particle board wouldn't hold detail any better than MDF also made me less reluctant to throw away the free piece of Formica clad particle board.

[bleeth]

Chuck:
Something with that fine a detail would have to be engraved in the laminate rather than v-carved very deeply. Laminate typically comes in different available thickness and to try what you show I would make sure I started with the thickest, known as Horizontal Grade. After dialing in your bit just so you may be able to get this detail by just going through the top surface of the laminate and having the phenolic backer showing through but not going all the way through to the substrate. Since the backer is dark I would select lighter and/or brighter laminate. A flat table and properly zero'd bit would be a must.
If you went through odds are you would also have small pieces of laminate popping off the substrate as well.

[Chuck Keysor]

Thanks Dave for your helpful advice. I'll go off and by some laminate to experiment with.

When I was experimenting with the melamine, I did full v-carving, and then used Aspire's limit to specific depth function. So I can use that with the .045" thick horizontal laminate. Though I had found I had to manipulate the artwork extensively to not have the limit depth function not create visual problems.

Thanks again, Chuck

[Chuck Keysor]

Another question concerning my carving: Would the Widgetworks material hold-down foot make it so I could carve the Formica Laminate sheet without using my Roots vacuum?

I ask for two reasons:

1) The owl image takes over 3 hours for me to do as a 2D carving on an 18" by 18" piece of stock. I was running at 1 IPS. I want to make versions that are larger, and have other artwork that is far more complex that I will get to after getting the owl to work OK. So running the vacuum for 20 minutes to slice up sheet goods is fine, but to run it for hours on end would not be desirable. So could the hold-down foot allow me to cut the Formica/laminate without having to run my vacuum for countless hours on end?

2) My bed is very flat. But if I glue the laminate onto a substrate first, how flat can that be? I would think getting the glue perfectly distributed to keep the Formica parallel to the top of the substraight could be close to impossible. And having a perfectly flat surface with this type of carving is critical. So if I can use the hold-down foot on my PRT-Alpha, to carve the laminate that has not been attached to a substraight, I won't have to worry about the glue-up of the Formica (after being cut) being perfectly flat.

So, if the hold-down foot will work, it should give me two huge benefits. Are either or both of my points valid? It isn't just a question of should I buy the hold-down foot and experiment. But IF this is known by someone to not work, it will save me lots of time experimenting.

Can anyone comment? Again, your help is appreciated. Thanks, Chuck

[wberminio]

Chuck

I've used WW pressure foot to cut mica w/o vacuum.Works very well

I just taped the outer edges and cut

[bleeth]

Most guys who cut 3d do not use vacuums but rather a mechanical hold system.
Dave Buchsbaum makes a great one for that purpose but it's not to hard to design your own.

[Chuck Keysor]

OK, I went to the Widget Works website, and looked at the specs for their PRT pressure foot. It says that it can not be used with cutters that have a diameter in excess of 1/4 inch..............

My new favorite bit for V-carving, the CMT Laser 60degree bit is 5/8" in diameter. I then figured I could use my Amana "In-Groove" engraver with replaceable blades, even though I was not happy at how fragile that bit was in simple test cuts. But then I measured that, and its diameter is almost 1/2 inch.

There will be huge advantages in using the pressure foot for carving large line images in laminate. So I have three questions:

1) What V-carving bit is recommended for use with this pressure foot?
2) Is there an easy work around to make the Widget Works pressure foot work with my Amana "In-groove" cutter system?
3) Is it even remotely conceivable to revise the pressure foot to work with my 5/8" dia. CMT Laser 60 degree bit?

Thank you again!!! Chuck

[wberminio]

Chuck

I would contact Russ directly @ Wigetworks.
He is also a Shopbotter and will answer all your questions and I'm sure will help you find a solution !

[Chuck Keysor]

Thanks Erminio for your advice to call Russ at Widget Works! I just got off the phone, and Russ explained that I should have no problem using my 5/8" diameter CMT "laser" V-bit with his pressure foot.

Russ said that the issue behind specifying the maximum size of cutting bits to be used with their pressure foot, is the amount of lateral force created by the bit, which the pressure foot must over-come to keep the part that is being cut, from slipping. Widget Works did a lot of testing to determine what was the biggest diameter straight bit, moving at its typical speed, that would not create a high enough lateral force sufficient to make the material being cut, slip. Their stated size restriction is NOT connected to the mechanical dimensions of their pressure foot.

So, my v-bits will mechanically fit into the openings of their pressure foot. And my slow moving, shallow cutting V-bits should work fine due to the low lateral forces they will create.

I did suggest to Russ that he make a post here to clarify the issue, in case I left something out.

Thanks, Chuck

[wberminio]

Russ is a great guy glad he could help!