Puzzled About Why USB Hubs Help

[jdervin]

I thought that I pretty much understood why USB hubs help with so many people's lost comm issues. I'm pretty sure that this arrangement forces the port to run as USB 2.0 (or better), whereas the built-in ports -- even when labelled 2.0 -- will sometimes run as 1.1 (i.e. slower). However, I am in the process of replacing my control computer, and when I went to IOGEAR's web site to download the Windows 7 version of their driver for the GUC232A adapter, I notice that they refer to it as a "USB 1.1 to Serial Converter Cable"...
http://www.iogear.com/support/dm/driver/GUC232A

This makes me wonder, if the adapter is only 1.1, doesn't that pretty much limit the speed despite the capacity of the hub?

[Brady Watson]

A 2.0 hub will not upgrade a 1.x port to 2.0 speed. It will however, automatically create in Windows a USB Enhanced port, which provides wider bandwidth and gives that port priority over other ports, just by plugging it in & plugging the Bot into it.

Most of the time you can run the SpeedTest.exe and see a marked difference between a 2.0 hub installed and no hub installed. I recommend installing a 2.0 PCI to USB expansion card to get the USB ports for the Bot on their own separate bus than sharing ports with the keyboard and mouse. Many of the hardware manufacturers today seem to be cheesing out on the robustness of USB hardware, and this has been known to cause problems when running a robotic tool.

-B

[garyc]

John...
What Brady says X2, and:

The hub will not help you keep a connection, they ensure (usually) a higher bandwidth. This higher bandwidth is required for faster cut speeds, circular or angular cutting and 3D cutting.

There are variations of errors that all surface with the same "lost comm" message box. All result in a data byte or two being "misplaced or added". All require a different fix:

Ground Voltage potential difference between the control computer and control box.

Low comm rate (below 70%) Causes lost steps and position

Uncontrolled static discharge from non conductive portions of the dust collection system.

Improper installation of the ShopBot USB drivers (usually Vista :mad: or Win7) due to user account settings and/or having an antivirus program on the control computer.

A bad component, such as a cable, hub or controller card. My guess on this one: 3 to 5% of occurances

There are a large number of legacy USB/Serial converters out there that are not being supported under Win7. There are also a lot of workarounds to get drivers for these products on the web. I tried a number of them. In the end I purchased a converter that was supported under Win7 and all is well. Under $15 and works flawlessly.

That will be my advice: Dont let a $20 part be the weak link in your data stream to a machine that costs thousands.

[jTr]

For What it's worth:

I've recently learned the USB hub supplied with my new machine was NOT intended to use as a "Y" for running the control box and spindle speed control, but a signal enhancer for the control box only!!! :o
However, once I corrected that error, I had to use a hub on the control computer to be able to have enough ports for mouse and jump drives. Worked fine for a couple weeks, but suddenly began getting complete program crashes without warning, explaination nor comm/usb errors, rendering the machine inoperable.

Brady's comment:
" ...and gives that port priority over other ports, just by plugging it in & plugging the Bot into it." may have nailed this issue dead on the head - if two hubs are there, I've got two hubs competing for priority(?)

Eliminated that hub and wireless mouse yesterday - now trying to simply swap jump drive and corded mouse on the control computer. That seems to have aleviated some of the issues I am continually battling with my machine.

I'll echo a comment I've seen posted in other threads lately - If Shopbot offered it's own version of a control computer factory optimized to run these machines, it seems an awful lot of SB Support and user downtime could be avoided. I fully realize the implications of essentially becoming a computer dealer are not likely something SB wants to get into, but hope they are weighing the options and licensing issues are not prohibitive. Meanwhile, looks like I'll be trying the beta test version next to see if we can get my brand new machine to run reliably.


Botttom line on hubs: Avoid them altogether?

[garyc]

Jeff...

Paraphrasing what Brady says: The USB hub is REQUIRED to ensure an enhanced port which is mandatory for high speed communication. Try it both ways. I have a couple computers that do not need a hub. Many (read as not the cheapest you can buy) computers have a great USB bus sytem onboard, many others (read as cheap, or possibly as Dell) do not, and will benefit greatly from a PCI card install. The inability to add or upgrade, along with the built in power saving features, are my reasons for not using a laptop. Many work, in fact my ASUS road laptop pulls lower comm with a hub installed, but I still wouldnt run a machine on a daily basis using it.

ShopBot Computer Requirements: -- You need a PC that is running Windows XP/Vista/Win7 (recommended version: Home Premium/ Business or higher). At minimum: 2 Ghtz Pentium Dual Core, 1.66 Ghtz I3 or equivalent, 1.66 Ghtz Core I5 and dedicated video RAM greater than 512K if using for 3D design.

Control Computer Minimum RAM Requirements: (more is better)

With Win XP:
with SB3.4.xx or 3.5.xx versions alone 512K
with SB3.6.xx alone 1GB (minimum), 2GB (recommended)
If 3D cutting, using Aspire or SB Link 2GB (minimum) (more will perform better)

Vista or Win7:
with 3.6.xx 2GB (minimum)
with3D cutting, Aspire or SB Link 4GB (minimum), 6GB will perform better

Cutting 3D files, adding an Indexer, or using the Control Computer for design work will mandate that you follow the highest recommended specs above.


Graphics display 1024x768 for the shop (this resolution optimally uses screen). For your design computer (if you use a separate computer), a resolution of 1280 x 1024 or higher will work well.

You will need at least 1 USB 2.0 port for the ShopBot USB connection. An additional port is required for a spindle speed controller. This is in addition to any mouse, keyboard, printer or other USB peripherals you may require ports for. You should also have an open USB port to transfer cutting files from the design computer if you will not be networked.

Adobe Reader is required to access the included Help files from ShopBot software, PartWorks and Aspire.

For control use, a “clean install” of the operating system is the best. This ensures that no 3rd party software has been installed that may interrupt the data stream to the ShopBot Controller.
I have put together a couple dozen control computers for other users. They include a very stripped down version of XPsp3, SB3, Partworks and the SB Editor ONLY. They have 6 USB ports (2@ USB3.0, 2@USB2.0 and 2 front), no optical drive, network card disabled in BIOS, have never been updated, seen the internet, or have ever been connected to anything other than a ShopBot. They were designed as multimedia PC's to handle video. As such, they were made to handle data, rather than email. They work flawlessly for SB Control.

[Brady Watson]

I think the majority of people that have communication problems, don't have computer hardware that is suited for running a robotic tool. Computers are cheap for the most part, and a quality computer (not one you bought at a chain store on sale) is not much more coin than a cheap one. Brand names mean next to nothing...so don't be fooled thinking you've got all the bases covered because you think Dell or XYZ computer brand is the end all be all. It isn't.

You (everyone) need to understand that a ShopBot is a robotic tool. Not a printer...not a webcam, but a sophisticated machine that requires certain things in order to function properly. As the saying goes, there is no free lunch...so along those lines, a $150,000 CNC most likely has it's own internal/proprietary computer that just runs machine code and NOTHING ELSE - which means, you'd need a separate computer to tweak something in 'PartWorks' et al. The computer attached to the ShopBot's ENTIRE FUNCTION is to control the ShopBot. Not surf the web, not check email, and NOT do CAD/CAM, although most of the time this is not a problem if you are running software that doesn't require a dongle.

In case some of you need it spelled out - You got into the CNC game 'on the cheap' by investing in a ShopBot. It does everything a larger tool will, provided you give it what it needs. You saved a ton of cash on shipping (no riggers required), on the electronics (you use your own computer), and you bit the bullet thinking, "You know what...I can make this work!" But many cheesed out...used inferior computers, bootleg operating systems and made hasty decisions that have only bitten you in the butt down the road...and the fact of the matter is that the ShopBot system is not to blame...You are. It is VERY rare for the SB control system and software to be at fault in regards to communication. There is usually something else that is causing the problem, like a USB cable over 12' long, shoddy machine grounding or inferior computer hardware - ALL of which are YOUR responsibility...Not ShopBot's.

I see all these posts about communication woes & I get the feeling that many believe that this is somehow a 'ShopBot' problem. It isn't. 99% of the time, it is because the correct computer hardware was not implemented or other problem on the user's end. I've seen my fair share of 'bright ideas' in my travels.

If you want to get your communication beefed up for CNC duty, here's what I'd do:

Windows XP Professional or Win7 Professional OS (yes...you pay for a real license)
PCI to USB Expansion card
USB self-powered 2.0 hub (throw the IOGear one in the trash)
12' or less USB cable plugged between control box and hub
Plug hub into PCI/USB port
Keep ALL nonsense programs off the computer. PartWorks & SB3 ONLY - No Inkscape, games or other Freeware junk or warez.
If USB cable is not long enough to get to computer, relocate computer closer to control box & extend monitor, keyboard & mouse.

-B

[Ajcoholic]

Since I received my SB Buddy 48 Alpha in February, I have used it an awful lot (even though I dont post pics of everything I am making these days, I am still running the bot multiple times a week).

WHen I ordered my machine, I went to the local privately owned electronics shop, with a list of the SB requirements. I picked a laptop which they said was more than adequate based on the parameters I showed them.. it was about $550 Canadian.

I took everything off the computer, other than the Windows, and installed my Aspire and the Shopbot software. That is all I have on the computer, and all I use it for (since I have my Macbook I use for general computing, and word processing, internet, photos, etc).

I plug my shopbot and the line for the spindle into the two USB ports on the right side of the laptop - never used the hub.

I have never had any stalling of the program, or crashing, or any other issue (save for the two times I had a static discharge from my vacuum cleaner - a problem I have since resolved).

I dont understand computers very much if at all. But, I cant see how in my case using that hub would improve anything, since I dont seem to be having any issues to begin with.

AJC

[gerryv]

Excellent, crystal clear advise. Thanks much Brady & Gary. I now know what to buy for the machine I have coming.

[garyc]

Over the last half a dozen years ShopBot has done virtually everything it could to keep control computer requirements and costs low for its users. In many cases it has worked, but in a number of others, not so well. It is near impossible to publish a spec that shows an uninformed computer user how to determine which chip on a motherboard works best. Nor is it possible to predict what variations the software and hardware mfgrs will produce next.

As our machines have gotten faster and require higher data rates, the computers we use to control them have gotten more prone to shift resources to backround operations than ever before. ShopBot is not alone in noticing this. Google this document to see what the CNC mfgr Tormach and Controller software mfgr Mach have to say about this: TD31275_Mach3_Controllers.pdf


To AJC:
IF, and please note that I say IF, your controller shows up on an enhanced USB port when using the included "USBView" diagnostic, AND your comm rate is mid 70's or above using speed test, then I say OK, but it must be confirmed prior to accepting it. if not then I repeat: THE USB HUB MUST BE USED TO ENSURE A RELIABLE HIGH SPEED CONNECTION TO THE SHOPBOT! DO NOT CONNECT ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE SB Controller INTO THE HUB!

There has been a hub provided for you with your machine by ShopBot. It's use has been specified in your instructions. The instruction for hub use has been repeated time and time again here on the forum and by SB tech supt. The only thing you may find that says to not use the SB hub has been posted by Brady. He says to replace it with a better one. Seems clear, hub is required.

Even if your situation shows a standard port and lower comm rates, if your cut speed are conservative then you may get sufficient comm. Try aircutting a 48" diameter circle at 10 ips and you can learn what a data choke comm error looks like.

[Ajcoholic]

Over the last half a dozen years ShopBot has done virtually everything it could to keep control computer requirements and costs low for its users. In many cases it has worked, but in a number of others, not so well. It is near impossible to publish a spec that shows an uninformed computer user how to determine which chip on a motherboard works best. Nor is it possible to predict what variations the software and hardware mfgrs will produce next.

As our machines have gotten faster and require higher data rates, the computers we use to control them have gotten more prone to shift resources to backround operations than ever before. ShopBot is not alone in noticing this. Google this document to see what the CNC mfgr Tormach and Controller software mfgr Mach have to say about this: TD31275_Mach3_Controllers.pdf


To AJC:
IF, and please note that I say IF, your controller shows up on an enhanced USB port when using the included "USBView" diagnostic, AND your comm rate is mid 70's or above using speed test, then I say OK, but it must be confirmed prior to accepting it. if not then I repeat: THE USB HUB MUST BE USED TO ENSURE A RELIABLE HIGH SPEED CONNECTION TO THE SHOPBOT! DO NOT CONNECT ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE SB Controller INTO THE HUB!

There has been a hub provided for you with your machine by ShopBot. It's use has been specified in your instructions. The instruction for hub use has been repeated time and time again here on the forum and by SB tech supt. The only thing you may find that says to not use the SB hub has been posted by Brady. He says to replace it with a better one. Seems clear, hub is required.

Even if your situation shows a standard port and lower comm rates, if your cut speed are conservative then you may get sufficient comm. Try aircutting a 48" diameter circle at 10 ips and you can learn what a data choke comm error looks like.

When I got my machine I was having a little trouble getting the spindle to change speeds from the program (an unrelated issue, I was using the wrong post processor) and I told the tch I was speaking to on the phone I had both cables plugged directly into the computer.

I cannot say I completely understand what you and Brady are saying, but from what it sounds like to me (a non computer guy) the little black usb hub that came with my machine is required for the faster exchange of data bewteen the bot, and the computer - correct? Or am I misunderstanding?

I have never tried the usb diagnostic, I guess since I havent had to. I will see if I can figure it out, and see what my system is working at. I am always willing to learn something that will improve things!

For the record, I have not cut faster than 7ips / 420ipm yet. I generally cut at 3 to 4 ips.

AJC

[CNYDWW]

I think the majority of people that have communication problems, don't have computer hardware that is suited for running a robotic tool. Computers are cheap for the most part, and a quality computer (not one you bought at a chain store on sale) is not much more coin than a cheap one. Brand names mean next to nothing...so don't be fooled thinking you've got all the bases covered because you think Dell or XYZ computer brand is the end all be all. It isn't.

You (everyone) need to understand that a ShopBot is a robotic tool. Not a printer...not a webcam, but a sophisticated machine that requires certain things in order to function properly. As the saying goes, there is no free lunch...so along those lines, a $150,000 CNC most likely has it's own internal/proprietary computer that just runs machine code and NOTHING ELSE - which means, you'd need a separate computer to tweak something in 'PartWorks' et al. The computer attached to the ShopBot's ENTIRE FUNCTION is to control the ShopBot. Not surf the web, not check email, and NOT do CAD/CAM, although most of the time this is not a problem if you are running software that doesn't require a dongle.

In case some of you need it spelled out - You got into the CNC game 'on the cheap' by investing in a ShopBot. It does everything a larger tool will, provided you give it what it needs. You saved a ton of cash on shipping (no riggers required), on the electronics (you use your own computer), and you bit the bullet thinking, "You know what...I can make this work!" But many cheesed out...used inferior computers, bootleg operating systems and made hasty decisions that have only bitten you in the butt down the road...and the fact of the matter is that the ShopBot system is not to blame...You are. It is VERY rare for the SB control system and software to be at fault in regards to communication. There is usually something else that is causing the problem, like a USB cable over 12' long, shoddy machine grounding or inferior computer hardware - ALL of which are YOUR responsibility...Not ShopBot's.

I see all these posts about communication woes & I get the feeling that many believe that this is somehow a 'ShopBot' problem. It isn't. 99% of the time, it is because the correct computer hardware was not implemented or other problem on the user's end. I've seen my fair share of 'bright ideas' in my travels.

If you want to get your communication beefed up for CNC duty, here's what I'd do:

Windows XP Professional or Win7 Professional OS (yes...you pay for a real license)
PCI to USB Expansion card
USB self-powered 2.0 hub (throw the IOGear one in the trash)
12' or less USB cable plugged between control box and hub
Plug hub into PCI/USB port
Keep ALL nonsense programs off the computer. PartWorks & SB3 ONLY - No Inkscape, games or other Freeware junk or warez.
If USB cable is not long enough to get to computer, relocate computer closer to control box & extend monitor, keyboard & mouse.

-B
To go along with Brady's suggestion about extending the mouse, keyboard and monitor and moving the computer closer. I use one of these on my system.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11601507&filterName=Brand&filterValue=TRENDnet

I added a 25' monitor cable to the adapter and works the control computer flawlessly. Please keep in mind that i do not use a SB control on my PRT. The adapter hooks to the computer with one usb and the vga port. It is then plugged into the switch which has two usb's for mouse and keyboard along with the vga. It's meant to be used as a switch to control two different computers from one terminal but i just use it as stated. It seams to handle the vga extension cable without issue or lag as in, i push the stop or jog keys on the keyboard and the machine reacts without pause.

Just wanted to toss this is for those that could use this length of extension for the computer controls and monitor.

Regards
Randy

[jTr]

Brady,
Sorry to hack you off - I've learned an awful lot from you, thanks to your generosity and contributions here.

"I think the majority of people that have communication problems, don't have computer hardware that is suited for running a robotic tool."

I intended to respond to Gary's note this morning:

"I have put together a couple dozen control computers for other users. They include a very stripped down version of XPsp3, SB3, Partworks and the SB Editor ONLY. They have 6 USB ports (2@ USB3.0, 2@USB2.0 and 2 front), no optical drive, network card disabled in BIOS, have never been updated, seen the internet, or have ever been connected to anything other than a ShopBot. They were designed as multimedia PC's to handle video. As such, they were made to handle data, rather than email. They work flawlessly for SB Control. "

Based on his coments, the history of my issues since day one, the fact that thousands of these machines run on this operating system ALL day, EVERY day.... I concluded that very notion before Brady posted it, and was out buying a new computer!

Before purchasing machine early this year, I fully researched these topics and understood the need for a dedicated computer, the specs required, as well as the need to disable everything, never see the internet, etc. I purchased a $600 laptop that met specs posted, and cleaned it out and use only as advised. No pirated software, no Wal-Nut specials.

Can't tell you how many times I see pictures of modified machines, wires and sawdust piles all over the place, and wonder how they can keep going when my machine with a comparably pristine installation is experiencing such persistent issues.

I dearly hope the time and money spent on a desktop that exceeds all posted requirements 3X's over will finally have me advancing past the constant troubleshooting. Believe me, averaging 2-3 hours of diagnostics for every hour of production does not help my business in the least.

However, I'd ask for your patience and understanding as we newbies deal with the realities of graduating to this level of sophistication in machinery. We are not naive to the gravity of what this machine is and what we're asking of it in terms of performance. Just simply asking for help in gathering information to advance our understanding, go beyond the difficulties encountered, and excel to a point that we can become contributors to this great community as well.

Simply put -
I know it's an awesome machine - I'm just trying to get mine running as well as yours!

I'll let you know if the computer makes the difference.

jeff

[kevin]

Brady or Gary I have a question I don't mean to hijack the tread

Somtimes when I run large files i get "stop eror do you want to disable yes or no " of cource I click yes .Should I disable the stops or are they set to senitive

As a ex computer nut I ran my shopbot with a laptop usb speed of 72 .I had all kinds of problem shurdering like a bang .I run now with 8gig ram etc full blown computer no problems execept obove
Brady sometimes where stupid cheap

Best price for a real computer is Tiger.com

[michael_schwartz]

Since this is something so critical I would like to see ShopBot build and sell control PC'S that are preconfigured, and guaranteed. Yes they would cost more than an off the shelf consumer oriented PC. However by speccing quality components and an industrial quality case, I think this would be a product people would buy.

Again, with the latest recommendation of conductive grounding hose that Gary suggested in another thread (see post #4 and #6) http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15394
it would be nice if ShopBot would recommend a specific brand, and product and a provide schedule for proper installation. There are so many different recommendations on the forum, it would be nice to have something up to date, that is official. It would be nice to simply have an industrial dust collection contractor come in, but there is no guarantee they would get it right. Even better selling, the recommended, hose could be another money maker.

I would also like to see a service bulletin on ground loops, and the latest recommendations for grounding if they differ from the original manual.
Especially in regards to ground loops, it would be nice to have something to provide a licensed electrical contractor so that they may have a better understanding on how to assess possible issues. The commercial electricians I have consulted on this have not had much to say on this issue.

I would also suggest that ShopBot consider offering some more detailed photos and video with explanations on proper wiring, and routing of cables, and some examples of what not to do. When you buy a machine site unseen, and you have never seen another SB installation you are looking at the manual from a totally different perspective, than an experienced user or the engineers, and designers behind the product.

[adrianm]

As our machines have gotten faster and require higher data rates, the computers we use to control them have gotten more prone to shift resources to backround operations than ever before. ShopBot is not alone in noticing this. Google this document to see what the CNC mfgr Tormach and Controller software mfgr Mach have to say about this: TD31275_Mach3_Controllers.pdf

Interesting document. Probably explains why I've never had any problems as I only use older spec PC's. Never saw the point in having lots of horsepower and loads of RAM to run one 32 bit application.

[jTr]

Finished setting up new desktop pc to replace laptop.

Warmed up spindle: NO CRASH:D

Ran part file: EXECUTED PERFECTLY:D

Will likely post new thread on what I bought + specs etc.
But for now, since it's running smoothly, I'd better keep working!

jeff

[garyc]

Kevin...
Reset your table based coordinates to accurate numbers and/or turn file limit checking off.

Jeff...
Good call, glad to see you are working. You are correct, near 6000 working machines. Many every day. Dont forget to check the Windows services for background operations.

Michael...
I dont see SB being in the computer business in the near future. Things change extremely fast in that arena and many components are made on a 1 run basis. There is no way that a small company could keep up with it all unless that (computers) was their primary business.

Adrian...
I was wondering if anyone would actually read that! :D

[kevin]

Gary thanks for the anwser on a Sat
Who do you turn off turn file limit checking off ?

[steve_g]

FWIW... I've said it before and feel it's worth repeating. CNC machines with dedicated processers aren't without problems! Plus you are limited to one source for help. I've seen some pretty nice CNC metalworking machinery scrapped because the OEM decided that they were obsolete and no longer carried parts or support for them. When I was considering which product to buy, I was pleased to find that the ShopBot was not powered by a proprietary processer.

SG

[kevin]

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1747626&CatId=5205

Micheal I guess they don't get involed enough headheachs .The computer above would run a Shopbot no problem .Also they have tech support to ask questions

[garyc]

Kevin...
Set table parameters and toggle table limits by using command [V] [L]. Also if experiencing this type of issue, when at 0,0 position type [Z] [T] to zero the table base coordinates.

[kevin]

Gary your a walking encyclopedia thanks

[GlenP]

Hey Everyone. Just a thought out loud here. Would it not be in most cases the best resolve if we could buy a control computer from shopbot when ordering a new machine? I know a few other manufacturers do this but perhaps it is not the best idea.....thoughts??
I run a win 7 with usb card and hub. I have only had a few keyboard issues that caused comm error.

[Brady Watson]

I think the idea of selling CNCs with a control computer has been discussed many times over the past several years. SB is not in the computer business, and for as many issues as this would alleviate, I think that it would cause just as many problems from a support standpoint. "The machine is fine...but I can't find Free Cell..."

The thing about most SB customers is that they are totally new to CNC, and they may also be new or inexperienced in other areas as well. This adds a tremendous amount of load from a support standpoint - and I think that SB has done an absolutely phenominal job with their support team. When you consider just how many different models and permutations of ShopBots were produced, plus different accessories, it's amazing at how well they can pin point a problem and remedy it quickly. Bravo!

I know my comments about 'your CNC's communication not working is all your fault' may have come off a little harsh...But, some (no one in particular) need to be yelled at in order to get with the program. I see threads posted all the time about COM issues, and quite frankly, it is because their hardware is subpar. I hate the idea that a potential buyer will see all these COM issue threads and think that is the norm for a ShopBot. It isn't...There should be a sticky post section on this board for information like this.

I agree 100% about the pics that are posted from time to time with Bots under a mountain of sawdust with junk and debris laying all around. Some of you people are downright slobs! Slobs I say! :D

-B

[steve_g]

"Some of you people are downright slobs! Slobs I say"


Ouch... I resemble that remark!

SG

[garyc]

Brady's comments X2

And I think Brady will back this up...."You should see some of the ones that they dont take pics of!!!!" :D:D

[jdervin]

Back to the original question...

Thanks to everyone for their input. Brady's original reply answered my question very thoroughly and helped me to see the error in some of my thinking. However, later, something Brady mentioned made me just want to make sure of something. At one point he parenthesized "throw the IOGear one in the trash" (in reference to a USB hub). My USB hub is not IOGear. The IOGear product I've originally referenced is a USB to RS232 adapter provided by ShopBot with the original purchase of the tool. Brady, were you suggesting that this adapter should be replaced with something better?

FYI, at present, my comm issues are a thing of the past. My last speed tests were in the 90's (though I haven't had time to test the new computer yet).

[Brady Watson]

John,
There is nothing wrong with the IOGear USB to Serial adapter. In fact, it is probably one of the best out there. I was referring to the USB hub, which I have found isn't as reliable as we'd all like them to be. When they work, they are great. When they flake out, they can really play tricks on you. So be aware of that if you own one. I had no trouble with mine on my BT48, but I have seen them DOA on new tools and flake out in a short time.



And I think Brady will back this up...."You should see some of the ones that they dont take pics of!!!!" :D:D

Yeah really...

-B

[jTr]

Can't beleive it, but here we go some more:

Brand new computer worked perfect yesterday.

Today: Unable to finish a spindle warmup cycle.
Note: no vac motors or dust collectors running to introduce line noise.
New PRSAlpha 96x60 vintage February 2012, = CLEAN installation, hired professional electrician to hook up power and ground connections. Have studied all threads on ground issues and verified I am not breaking any rules there, nor have any loose/corroded ground points.

Anyone interested can review following text describing reason for program error. Same message original laptop was displaying. I've forwarded to support and will call monday, but anyone who can give me a clue is more than welcome to interject any constructive comments.

Meanwhile, I have a pile of lumber to process into furniture - Hope the part files run after I plow through the warmup dance.

jeff

[Brady Watson]

Hook it up to the net and do a Windows Update. Pull everything down that you can. Then, download the latest version and re-install SB3, and then re-install firmware to the control box. See if that gets you anywhere.

-B

[garyc]

Jeff...
Was the Windows user account turned to its lowest setting before you installed SB3?

Was the ShopBot plugged into the computer before the SB3 software was installed?

Is the spindle controller plugged into its own USB port on the computer?

Does the spindle controller look like a USB dongle or a PC board?

Have you tried seeing if everything is normal if spindle controller is unplugged?

[jTr]

So far, looks like warmup is only issue - successfully ran part files for an hour + w/o a hitch - booting of SB3 is much smoother than laptop was able to execute.

Gary: I have a print out of your installation steps to assure best comm from an old thread - followed that precisely for timing of plugging in cables.

Spindle is on it's own USB 3 port.

Spindle cable terminates with a USB dongle looking device that accepts the telephone style plug on actual cable coming from controller.

Sounds like your last suggestion was to try warmup cycle with spindle unplugged to see if software makes it through warmup cycle?

Perhaps I should try Brady's suggestion as well, but will try a "dry run" warmup right now.

Thanks guys!
Jeff

[jTr]

Frank and I just walked through a litany of analysis of spindle <> computer communications with affirmative results, and my c5 warmup passed test twice now.

Why?

Hard to say, but again, part files continue to run very well with the new computer.

As preventive measure, installed RF choke at spindle control inlet (Frank thought one usually is there from factory?). Theory is that I'm running right at the threshold line of interference, and the choke may keep the noise level under that line.

Meanwhile, I'm enjoying the most efficiently produced and accurate furniture parts ever!!!

Jeff

[shilala]

I'm glad to hear you got all fixed up, Jeff. I bet that feels wonderful!!! :)

This thread has helped me dramatically.
I checked the comm on my two laptops in the shop and ended up gutting everything off the one mounted to the shopbot. I managed to get the comm up to 75.2 with the hub and it's running nice and smooth.
I'm making a duplicate of an award plaque I just finished using the other laptop, I want to compare apples to apples. I truly think I'm going to see a big improvement where I was seeing a lot of chatter.

[Ajcoholic]

How do you run the optimizing/percentage program? I looked through my entire shopbot binder tonight but cannot find it.

AJC

[Brady Watson]

AJ - C:\ProgramFiles\ShopBot\ShopBot3\Diagnostics\Speed Test.exe

Make sure SB3 is completely closed before you run it. Try it with and without the hub and see if you notice a difference in transmission speed/efficiency.

-B

[Ajcoholic]

I couldnt find the file with the extensions you gave me. After I cut a bunch if stuff on the router today, I phoned up Shopbot, and spoke to one of the techs.

He walked me through the test, both with and without the USB hub installed.

Without hub = 74.6%
With hub = 74.8%

I asked about the thread here and if he saw it, etc, and what his opinion was.

He told me, since I was already running at pretty much the best I was going to get without the hub, there was no benefit in my case to use it.

AJC

[danhamm]

What it boils down to is the "Mother Boards and the chipsets in them"
the IO chipsets, PC Server mother boards a little more costly but have tested chipsets, asus, tyan, maybe you shopbot care takers should list the boards that are more capable.

[srwtlc]

I've always built my own SB computers and have always used Asus motherboards. With my latest build for a Win7 machine (about three years old now), I consistently got a rate of 88-89 (with a WallyWorld CyberPower powered hub).

It's not that hard to build your own and the cost isn't that much more than buying one.

[garyc]

Coincidentally, I have done same using ASUS boards. All of my "black box" units use an ASUS mini ITX board with the D525 dual core processor.

My current road laptop, an ASUS Zenbook UX31 connects at 75 to 78% with a hub to most of the controllers I have hooked to, and in the low 90%'s without one. So in this case its not needed. Similar to that of AJC where he does not gain anything with a hub attached.

[Brady Watson]

Yep - X3 on the Asus boards. Com speeds are 87-88%.

-B

[Ajcoholic]

So, now that I know that the best I will get on my shopbot control computer is the mid 70%'s.... should I be happy with that or could I see improvements with a "better" computer?

As I said to date I have not had any issues with files slowing down or stopping, etc. So I am assuming I will be fine with the set up I have.

But would there be any noticeable improvement with a computer that would give me 80 to 90%??

AJC

[Brady Watson]

No. A solid 70% or better will allow the tool to run at max speed reliably.

The transmission efficiency number is of course no indication of whether you are going to have a hiccup when you plug in or use another USB device on the same bus. This is why I recommend a PCI to USB card in a desktop/tower. Laptops are usually OK, but I think they are too delicate in such close proximity to a wood router. If you have one that uses a fanless CPU cooler, that will make it live a lot longer.

One other thing...on XP computers you MUST stop/eject a USB thumb drive before you remove it or it will cause problems with that port and possibly others on the computer until you restart it. Just click on the icon down in the tray by the clock and stop the device. A lot of people overlook this on XP computers and have COM problems as a result.

-B

[shilala]

One other thing...on XP computers you MUST stop/eject a USB thumb drive before you remove it or it will cause problems with that port and possibly others on the computer until you restart it. Just click on the icon down in the tray by the clock and stop the device. A lot of people overlook this on XP computers and have COM problems as a result.

My laptop will cause the bot to go absolutely mental at times. It will skip and chatter and act like it's gonna come off the rails. Running a part is absolutely out of the question.
It truly scared me half to death the first time it happened, I thought I broke something. As I jogged the cutter home it sounded like something ran into a bolthead. Once I checked things over and found nothing was wrong, I realized it was a comm problem and started rebooting at first sign of problems.
I never put 2 and 2 together, so far as ejecting my thumb drive. It makes perfectly good sense though, I had problems yesterday right after I moved files to that machine.
Thanks for that, Brady. That nugget is going to save me a lot of grief. :)

[garyc]

Scott, et al...
Another note.... Even tho some computers, especially those mentioned above as more robust than the cheapies can run files off an inserted USB thumb drive, it is not recommended. The file needs to be copied to a local drive on the control computer to ensure full speed operation. USB drive access is much slower than a hard drive.

[shilala]

I do that for all files in all arenas, Gary. It's a very good point to bring up.
I don't even have a mouse plugged into that laptop, although I'm going to plug one in and recheck my comm today (if I ever get to the shop).
I should say that I don't have any problems at all using my laptop on the workbench, it runs Windows 7. The laptop that I bolted to the Shopbot is an older Compaq running XP. I've cleaned everything off it and will continue to clear off background processes as time allows. It's doing a nice job now, I think I'm done with issues on that machine.

[backyard_cnc]

Since I just did a 4G upgrade on my 2004PRT 9648 I thought I would add in my 2 cents. The 4G came with an attached USB hub but I incorrectly assumed that maybe it was included in case users had a shortage of USB ports and initially didn't install it. I did the conversion and ran the machine first with some jog tests and then with a file I had previously cut. All seemed ok and the easy 6IPS jogging had me thinking everything was a-ok. I came into the house for supper and thought I would check on here for more info on this USB hub thing and was somewhat skeptical after reading this thread that a hub would speed up the connection but figured I had better do some tests. Sure enough without the hub the speed test showed only 56.4 which rates quite poorly so I installed the hub and was quickly amazed at the 76.2!!. A dramatic increase in performance for . This is an older HP PC 1.2Ghz P4 type machine with XP Pro and 2g of memory.

The increased smoothness of the motors with the 4G upgrade is awesome and now that I also have the added 4th axis (had a dead port on original PCB) I am looking forward to trying out some rotary work, but thats another thread!

gerald

[Rick W]

Was hoping someone could shed some light. After reading this thread and getting some free time, idecided to hook up the hub. When I bought my 48" buddy standard about a year and a half ago, it didn't say to use the hub (unless you were using a long cable). Anyhow, did some speed tests (as per this thread), went from 67 to 77 with the iogear. Now (with the hub installed),
after my file is finished cutting it goes back to zero and shuts off the router,
however the program hangs up at the line highlighted in blue. I have no choice but to exit shopbot or go into preview mode (it says there is nothing connected).
The only way I can get the program back to normal is reboot the computer.
I am running shopbot ver 3.6.44 , partworks 3.5 , windows 1 , 1 year old computer with three megs of ram. Suggestions???

Thanks Rik

[Brady Watson]

Try leaving the control box USB plugged into the hub, and put the spindle speed controller USB in another port on the computer & see if that helps.

-B

[Rick W]

Hi Brady,

Thankyou for your responce. I don't have a spindle, I should have mentioned that it was a router. If I take the iogear off, the program recognizes the shopbot on port3.

Thanks Rik

[garyc]

Rick...
Try replacing the hub with another, non Belkin, non powered SUB 2.0 hub

[Rick W]

Thank you very much Gary, I'll give that a try. Any good brands you know of??


Rik

[Rick W]

Oh, I should have mentioned that I am using windows 7.

Thanks Rik

[Rick W]

Would this one be good???

http://www.londondrugs.com/Cultures/en-US/Product+Detail/Computers.htm?BreadCrumbs=Computers;Computers;Memo ry;Memory%20Card%20Readers&ProductID=4669420&ProductTab=3

Rik

[gundog]

My son likes to build computers and has been wanting to build me a new computer for my SB control. He is in the process of gathering the new parts now. He has purchased high grade parts and a solid state hard drive. He has a nice motherboard from his computer that he just changed to upgrade to a newer model. Tomorrow Windows 8 is being released I am guessing that would not be a good idea until it has been out for a while.

I have XP Pro that I bought for my current control computer a few years ago should I use that or buy windows 7 pro? He has read this thread and is installing a PCI card. He was wondering if a USB 3.0 would be any advantage he was thinking probably not due to the fact the SB controller could not benefit from the faster speed what do you think?

I may have some of this messed up because I am not the computer wiz my son is. I will have him read all this and maybe ask some more questions. I am trying to build the ultimate compatible computer to the SB controller.

One more thing I would like to add a backup power supply but I am not sure what I need and what strategy I should use in the design. I would like the back up supply to just keep the PC from losing the line and position when the power is lost. I am wondering if that is an acceptable strategy to allow the SB control to lose power and create a loss of communication and stop? I can't afford a back up supply to keep the whole thing going spindle and all. so I was thinking of just letting the spindle and SB controller to lose power and have the program stop from a loss of communication. I am afraid if I keep the SB controller powered and the spindle stops running bad things will happen.

When I originally bought my PRS in 08 it had a router I later upgraded to a spindle direct from Columbo and I never added a spindle control to my SB controller. I operate the spindle through the supplied VFD separate from the control computer just like when it ran with a router.

Thanks Mike

[jerry_stanek]

I would use Windows XP it still is one of the most stable OS's out and a proven platform for the shopbot.

[Rick W]

Gary,

Thank you, did what you suggested (got a new hub), ended up getting one
from staples. Speed test is up to 77 and no problems. You are the man!

Thanks

Rik

[Bob Eustace]

No. A solid 70% or better will allow the tool to run at max speed reliably.

The transmission efficiency number is of course no indication of whether you are going to have a hiccup when you plug in or use another USB device on the same bus. This is why I recommend a PCI to USB card in a desktop/tower. Laptops are usually OK, but I think they are too delicate in such close proximity to a wood router. If you have one that uses a fanless CPU cooler, that will make it live a lot longer.

One other thing...on XP computers you MUST stop/eject a USB thumb drive before you remove it or it will cause problems with that port and possibly others on the computer until you restart it. Just click on the icon down in the tray by the clock and stop the device. A lot of people overlook this on XP computers and have COM problems as a result.

-B

Just expanding on Bradys excellent post - on Vista even if you always use "safely eject hardware" we can only do it three times then we lose coms. This is on a rock solid Sony Vaio where we never see the blue screen of death. We can reproduce this problem every time. Luckily it always stops when the spindle needs to start so we dont ruin jobs. We have a brand new Asus laptop with USB3 running Win7 but we have never managed to get it to find the Shopbot. Only tried it in case the laptop dies as Brady is just so right about the things sucking up dust.

[Ernie Balch]

I have a 5 year old PRS alpha with a spindle that has occasional communication errors and false limit errors. I just ordered a new control board in the hope that it is more reliable.

I bought a separate USB board as Brady recommends. The USB 3 board I bought turned out to be much slower than the standard computer usb port. The computer with a hub was running at 86 and the new board was 56 with or without the hub.

Other things done, tried 4 different computers over the past 5 years, separated wires, grounded wire through the dust collector, turned off the dust collector, stopped running other tools in the shop, ran large ground wire from control box to gantry and frame. tried different hubs. I have shut off the fire wall, dropbox and antivirus programs and the computer is not used for mail or anything else.

I have tried to eliminate all static discharge and electrical noise sources.

Any other ideas?


ernie

[Brady Watson]

You don't want a USB 3 board...yet. Regular old Belkin 2.0 PCI to USB is of known quantity. The USB3 stuff seems hit or miss depending on who makes the hardware and if the drivers are good.

-B

[Ernie Balch]

Thanks Brady, now you tell me! The board I got worked with the PCI express slot and was supposed to be much faster, well live and learn!

I have been avoiding Belkin products after getting a usb hub that didn't seem reliable.

In any case, I purchased a new controller board and am currently running the first job with it. The usb cable that came with it has a noise suppression choke on it and plugs directly into the control card which appears to be 9 revisions newer than the one I took out.

I don't know what improvements were made but I hope it fixes my problems.

ernie

[Bob Eustace]

Well thanks to Garry and Brady our problems are no more. Simply follow the golden rules!

1. Always use safely eject hardware

2. Always put SB3 in PREVIEW mode before inserting or removing flash drive

3. Always copy the SB3 file to hard drive.

Thanks guys - we no longer need Vallium!

[Ernie Balch]

Installing the new control board has apparently fixed my connection problems. I was able to run a 2 hour job with no losses in communication and no usb hub. The speed test showed 89%

ernie

[gerryv]

Ernie,
Can you please tell me what you mean by new controller board? Does this refer to a USB board? What brand/model/cost? I'm not experiencing any comm problems with my present machine but just in case I ever want to "beef up" your 89% is the highest number I've seen so why not go for the best. Glad to see that things have worked out so well for you.

[Ernie Balch]

I have a 5 yr old PRS Alpha the control board is the brains of the shopbot controller, it is a small board that is about 3x4 inches that connects to the usb cable and has the conversion hardware that outputs pulse and direction data to the stepper drivers.

My system originally had a 9 pin serial interface with a special serial to usb converter cable. The new design included a standard usb cable that plugs directly into the control board instead of the backplane.

That being said, I think the communication speed is mostly a function of the computer itself. I have a Dell Vostro system with windows 7. I can move the usb cable to different ports and get different speed test values ranging from 56 to 89.

[Brady Watson]

I have been avoiding Belkin products after getting a usb hub that didn't seem reliable.


I am by no means endorsing Belkin (Kin of Baal?) as the end all be all of hardware...because I still avoid them for pretty much everything else...This card was what they had at Staples, which actually worked. Most people have a Staples near them - so that is the only reason I recommend that brand.

Feel free to experiment with other brands, but avoid USB3.0 right now until they sort out all the driver issues.

-B

[shilala]

Just a thing...
The Iogear USB hub that came with my machine had terribly sloppy female connectors. I used rubber bands, double sided tape, squashed my usb cable a bit, bolted down the usb cable and twisted it, all trying to make the connectors tight.
Still, every now and then when the machine banged or if I brushed the cable or if the wind hit it right, it'd lose connection and throw a comm error.
I called Frank at Shopbot and he sent me a new one. It's perfect.
Why mine was so sloppy, I have no idea. I'm just thrilled that I'm back in business and no longer live in constant fear of that stupid adapter.

[ron_moorehead]

Hi Brady,

I was wondering which belkin card you got, the USB 2.0 card by Belkin their two port external with one internal or the 5 port external model.

Thanks

[Brady Watson]

Hey Ron - I'm pretty sure the one I have on my machine is a 4-port...but it has been a number of years since I put that one in. I have though, installed the 2-port ones in customer's machines that had marginal computer hardware - that worked well. In either case, they are internal PCI expansion cards for desktop machines.

You may also want to look into a PCMCIA to USB card if you are running a laptop and having COM problems. If you read the reviews for a given piece of hardware on NewEgg that will give you a pretty good idea of what is junk and what isn't.

-B