boozer finish

[Pete M]

My daughter is making a chess set using shooter and shot glasses and painting them. Naturally she said,"Dad...make me a chess board...and a box to hold the pieces. My dilemma is, what clear finish can I use that will hold up to spilled drinks, which I assume will happen. My favorite finish is spray shellac. For me finishing is almost as hard as gluing.

[Brady Watson]

Polyurethane would be the best finish for this. You can use your shellac under it as a sealer & top coat with the poly. I like the water base formulations - even the Polycrylic stuff over the oil based. I've never gotten a bad batch of water base, but I have on the oil. The stuff isn't cheap, but a quart will go a long, long way.

-B

[Ajcoholic]

I use a Post-catalyzed lacquer (acid cure synthetic lacquer) in my shop. Alcohol wont touch the stuff after the chemical reaction is finished (generally 10 days after you finish spraying with the product I use).

Some finishing manufacturers call it a "conversion varnish"... same thing different name.

Most better known finishing suppliers will sell it.

AJC

[Pete M]

Two qualified experts have given me two options. Now I truly am on the horns of a dilemma. Off to Providence lacquer to see if they have the sexier of the options.

[Brady Watson]

Think of your health first. I like the water based stuff for a reason - it works well for drink sweat & spills. Buy a small can & try it.

-B

[Ajcoholic]

Think of your health first. I like the water based stuff for a reason - it works well for drink sweat & spills. Buy a small can & try it.

-B

I guess take it for granted (and maybe shouldn't), anyone who is going to spray lacquers of any type, has the facilities for it. At the bare minimum, you need adequate ventilation and a respirator mask with organic vapour cartridges. Personally (and I am coming from a furniture background) water borne finishes just arent up to the solvent based ones (in several areas) yet... so I don't use them, and have no comments regarding their performance.

The post cat lacquers will even repel spills from lacquer thinners after the full cure. For furniture, they are as of yet unbeatable. But, for your chess set it might be wise to try some of the stuff Brady recommends... unless of course you already spray solvent based materials, and are set up for it. Just trying to give some options! :)

AJC

[Brady Watson]

AJ - You'd be suprised... I did some consulting with a company in AL to setup production for them and they were spraying laquer about 50' away with nary a fan running, let alone any filtration (including no respirator on the guy spraying). I told them if they didn't shut down the painting I was walking off...

A lot of smaller shops just 'wing it'...and the good ole EPA has pulled a lot of laquer from our shelves these past few years & made it tough to get in a lot of places.

-B

[jTr]

Peter,

In an effort to help you get off the fence-

If you can spray and find a product as described by AJ, it doesn't get any better.

If you need to brush, I'd lean towards an oil based poly.

Though I've used many dozens of gallons of water-based product as required by a client for several years, I had it peeling off storage cab doors in a high-humidity bath in my own home within 3 months:eek: = I still won't use it unless required.

Jeff

[waynelocke]

The water based products have really improved over the years. I have used them for over 20 years. They're different from lacquer and solvent based products and require different techniques but they are quite good. I have used General Finishes for about 10 years and they have a number of products including a two part catalyzed finish. I can't speak to Jeff's problems but the health and safety factors are not to be dismissed lightly.

[bleeth]

Peter:

This is for just one little chess board, right?
A small can of clear poly-urethane applied in a few coats will do the job just fine. You can brush it on with a cheap foam brush. Thin the first coat a little with some spirits, let it dry, scuff it with some 400 grit, and then put on a second coat straight out of the can. You can sand and then apply as many coats as you want.

[kevin]

Dave is right
But it brings up solvent vs water

Water based polyuratane can handle alchol spills

Water base sealer is better on exotic like Ipe

Water does not warp doors {if there warping you have bigger problem]

Water based stays flexable move with wood better than laquer

Water based is stronger than most oil and laquer

Water based is harder to spray

I use to work with polyester I was sick a lot with cold low imune .There are so many health problem .At another shop they sprayed with no mask because they had a booth .
On install water based is easy to touch up or do crown moulding with a foam brush
No one cares if they spill laquer thinner or gasoline .
I think some who is starting out not swithing to water based is asking for trouble down the road

Is Water Based Tough Enough ?

To demonstrate the hardness and durability of clear water-based finishes, Hydrocote conduced a Sward Hardness test to compare Water based Polyurethane to solvent-based nitrocellulose lacquer and oil based polyurethane.
The finishes were sprayed on metal plates and the films were subjected to abrasion from a swinging stainless steel pendulum at interval during the course of a week.

The chart to the right shows the hardness developed of the four products tested. The hardness values given are based on 1.5 mil film allowed to dry at 76°F and 45% relative humidity (Scale: Hardness of glass =100) .

One important note on the test. Polyurethane doesn't reach its full strength until after 30 days. This test was done 4 years ago water based is a lot stronger now.
Hardness: Water-Based vs. Solvent Based

http://www.kdunphy.com/Polyur3.gif

Drying Times

Oil based

Polyurethane

Water based

Polyurethane

Nitro-Cellulose Lacquer


1 hr
15

3
20
2 hrs
27

8
27
8 hrs
38
22
30
24 hrs
40
42
30
48 hrs
43
56
30
1Week

45
63
30





On a personal note I seen my Dads friend have major problem in his 50's from working in a autobody shop
Sort the myth form relaty don't ask a sale rep .Water based has been proven for over 20 years


www.kdunphy.com (http://www.kdunphy.com)

[twelchPTM]

If your only duing one small board you can get almost anything you want in a small spray can. I personally thing sprayed finishes have a nicer look then brushed finishes but then you could also go with a nice hand rubbed oil finish, if applied properly adn alowwed to cure and crystalize in the wood the produce a beautiful "old school" sheen

[Ajcoholic]

I think some who is starting out not swithing to water based is asking for trouble down the road

www.kdunphy.com (http://www.kdunphy.com)

Not wanting to argue with anyone, since everyone has their own beliefs and preferances.

However, it is pretty accepted among the companies I deal with (that sell both products) that water based furniture finishes (I am not talking automotive) have not yet achieved the toughness, durablity, scratch resistance, etc of the top end solvent based... yet. I am sure, chemists will some day do it - but probably when forced to. I know it is probably a matter of time before we are all forced to go water borne.

As for safety, it is - like every other part of this trade - up to THE USER to educate themselves, and take the proper precautions to make sure they are safe and their health is not affected. Spraying in a booth, with a proper mask, etc is required. Not using solvents on bare skin, etc are all required. I have been spraying regularly for more than 1/2 my life, 20+ yrs now. I don't feel I am "asking for trouble" because I do it right.

Sometimes I am kind of sorry to even suggest things that seem to cause controversy. But, hey, this is my life and livelihood and I like to talk about things I know well. All I want to do is offer advice when I can, and certainly not cause anyone to try things they arent comfortable with.

AJC

[twelchPTM]

@ AJ - I think what kevin means is exactly what you said "its is probably a matter of time before we are all forced to go water borne". So why not start figuring out the tricks and techniques before we have to do in a time crunch?
But you are right I have done alot of research as I am in the process of setting up our own in house paint dept. WB finishes are not as tough and durable because or there chemical composition, OB or LB finishes contain more solids alowing it to cure much harder. However they are pretty close and there are advantages to the flexibility that a low-solid finish has to offer. But I must say I have yet to find a WB clear coat that has the authentic amber tone of a good old polyurethane finish.

[kevin]

What I'am trying to say water base has a lot of advantages
Andrew you look like a young man with a young family .When you spray all day its getting in your pores .Its different when you spray a couple of hrs a day .Not to be an alarmist when you get 52 60 is looking close you look back some times its scary.The health problem don't show up till later in life .It effect every one different .

Also not to have the last word this is a good topic .A couple of years ago there was a job at bank I bid on in the drawing it said the maple had to be clear not yellow .I did't get the job I saw it latter it was yellow from the laquer .If water based was used it would have been white clear

I know wb its not laquer thinner proff but who cares .It doesn't make a differnce
40 years ago paint had lead in it who's still spraying lead paint?
For good spray equipment try spary gun world

[Ajcoholic]

I dont spray 40 hrs a week though, remember I spend the majority of my time making product - the finishing probably works out to 1/5 or so of the time I am at work. My dad has been in the industry as long as I have been alive, and he didnt have any adverse effects. He is still working 40 hrs/ week and he will be 82 soon.

As for going water borne, in terms of business, I am trained, have the correct set up and am familiar with the products I have been using since I started in the industry so it makes sense to stick with what I know - until I need to change.

Just to let you know as well, many of the new lacquers are also water clear and non-yellowing.

I am in no way against using water borne finishes. I just think for the furniture I produce, the product I use gives me the best results. I have done some testing with water borne, and also have some friends in the industry who have had to make the switch for various reasons. I try and keep current.

AJC

[bleeth]

Kevin:
I don't dispute that there are advantages to waterborn finishes and that legal trends are going that way.
You're example of the "yellow" bank job doesn't hold up though. There have been water-clear solvent based polys out for quite some time now and they also have UV inhibitors in them. If the fabricator of that job didn't use them that is one thing, but they are readily available.
However, maple exposed to UV for a while will yellow naturally regardless of the UV blocking coating put on it. Heck-a raw piece of Maple will darken in the sun in minutes! (I bet you already knew all this)

[kevin]

http://www.woodessence.com/CL100-Cross-Linker-Catalyst-P84C28.aspx

Here is water based cross link.It changing dramaticaly

Dave what I mean is oil or laquer looks amber color on natural maple .Water based is clear like water

My point is stay healthy all warning are that laquer can affect central nervous system .I know someone has the story of the uncle who smoke 2 packs a day till he died at 90 .A lot of women with breast cancer say its caused by cleaning products .Almost impossible to prove .
The bottom line it affects everyone different and can't be proven

Its a good topic because people have myths about wb .Also somethimes we get so comprotable in doing thing on way its hard to see new things ,That may be better

[bleeth]

You might spend a bit of time strolling through this site:
http://www.mlcampbell.com/products/categories/

You will find solvent based water white finishes (no yellow in the product at all) as well as water born finishes for a variety of uses. I've used their products for many years and can tell you that everything they say on their site is true.

Personally, when it comes to maple, I prefer a more traditional shaded topcoat. Water clear on maple looks boring to me.

[Pete M]

Basically, I followed the advice of Brady, canned spray spar urethane over canned spray shellac.

She was pleased with the results, thanks for all the advice.

[Brady Watson]

Hey Pete - Looks great! Now I really get what you meant by 'Boozer Finish' :D

Were you able to get through a whole game yet :p

-B