Ideas for sale?

[ccmarsh]

First off I would like to just say that I love this forum. It's great to watch all of you bouncing ideas off each other and helping each other out with things like troubleshooting, where to find deals on materials, giving advice. It's reminds me of family helping each other out.

I quickly noticed however that when it comes to sharing files...the conversations ended abruptly. I quess my question is why isn't there a Forum on Shopbot where people can sell the files of the things that they have created? I know there is one for Shopbot's that are for sale or accessories for the machine but no place for files. I also know that you can go to Vectric and other places to buy cut files. I've seen the work that many of you have done and have been amazed and I bet many of you could make some very good money selling your files. I'd buy some.

I appologize if this is the wrong place to post this question.

[steve_g]

Chris

Something I seem to do when presented with a good idea is instantly become "Devils advocate" and look for problems rather than see the possibilities... It's a personality characteristic that has served me well but often been misinterpreted by others as negativity. I see it as reality.

Just some random thoughts here... I'm inviting comments on them.

I have been criticized by family and friends for "giving away" ideas here... At this stage in my life that's all I want to do.

Most folks with ideas or plans to sell do it on their own web sites...

I'm glad this site isn't like some other CNC sites where blatant copyright infringement is going on...

Any project I've posted can be reproduced, changed, improved or customized by anyone familiar with design software (PartWorks Etc.).

Often its not the designs but the customizations we've made to our Bots that make us unique...

I can see rip-offs and hurt feelings galore... sometimes we act like little girls here! It's the ladies at headquarters that keep us focused... (Hi Nancy)

Plans are easy... it's the explaining that's hard to do. A simple box rapidly becomes a magazine article or treatise. Most of us woodworkers do what we do because we love the smell, feel and look of wood... not pen and paper.

Non sticky postings soon fade into oblivion. The article I edited about router bits will soon be forgotten by all but skilled searchers. (not griping, it's just an example of a fact)

I'm sure others will have thoughts too -- SG

[dana_swift]

@Chris, the Shopbot site has "ready to cut" files. Go try them. What I expect you will find is that after one or two of these, you find you want to make it "your way".

Each of us has our unique shop setup, capabilities, skills and talents. Posting the files is of little value to me. If I decide to make something, I would rather re-think out how it is laid out on the table. That makes me think about how it will go together later. If I just have cut files I dont know what the intention is.

I cut a lot of parts out that become a fixture for holding the other parts during assembly. How do I explain that to anyone else? They cant read my thoughts and would end up with some strange left-over parts. They become firewood after the project is done.

At first just cutting the project parts seems like a huge hurdle. Later you will start thinking.. hmm I could use one of these over there.. and one of those over here.. hmm.. yea.. and hold it together with a thingy.. etc.

A photo of a finished thing is all I need if I want to copy it. Perhaps even less.

Setting up the layout and assembly for my methods is presumably happening with every reader of the forum. I would find it surprising to find any senior member of the forum to want my files. They might like the product ideas.. which I sometimes post.

Once I post a picture of anything, I figure I have just given away the idea. Any skilled person can look at it and come up with an equivalent quickly.

What to me is more valuable is techniques. The fact I use an obscure belt sander three inches long and 0.3" wide. Most of the users of the forum don't care and cant see what they would do with one. I couldn't live without it, and I did freely tell about it in a very recent post.

@Crhis & @Steve

Giving away ideas. I have never seen any of my ideas for sale in my market area. I suppose sooner or later one will show up. There is an old saying about imitation and flattery.

When I go to a craft shop or flea market, I just look at stuff and go.. hmm if I need one of those I will just make my own. And I will build it better, whatever my definition of better is.

@Steve Your excellent tutorial on router bits is a standard handout of mine when I teach people how to run the shopbot. I recommend it highly and keep pointing new users to it. Shopbot should get a copy and put it on their site.

I am surprised that people would rather post a question than go to google and so a good search.

Unfortunately I see some questionable advise posted here sometimes. Yet when I go to google I seem to find good information quickly. Not necessarily on the first page of search results (mostly ads now.) When a new forum user asks what kind of bit for a specific application, another person will give them an opinion. You gathered the best-of bit information and put it into a single document. The new person has no idea that such good information is easier to get than the unqualified answer they accepted. Search first.. ask second.

So Steve- thank you for your efforts. I hope to slow the fade-to-oblivion of your fine efforts.

D

[Brady Watson]

I quickly noticed however that when it comes to sharing files...the conversations ended abruptly. I quess my question is why isn't there a Forum on Shopbot where people can sell the files of the things that they have created?

Chris,
I'll tell you why from my perspective, which is very different from most. I have been active in the CNC community long enough to observe a few things. There are few people who actually have created 'from scratch' original files that they can claim are truly their own - who also share freely from the goodness of their own heart. The cold hard truth is that there are very few people out there doing original work, and those that do, put in all the time and effort to create said original work & don't want to give away what they did to 'charity' and/or want to maintain exclusivity by keeping posession of the file. It really gets dicey when you start selling files, because you have to know the source of the file you are buying - otherwise, there could be legal problems. There are copyright free files available for purchase online, which seem to satisfy the needs of many & there are many of us out there who create files from scratch or derivative works of your original hand crafts for a fee. The 'selling files' thing opens up a whole can of worms, which leads into other things like 'sharing' (which is a watered down way of saying stealing).

I have strong thoughts and feelings about the idea of file sharing. I think it is great to have some files of various projects that we can all share - like Bill Young's rubber band racer, saw horses etc., which in cutting is sort of a ShopBot initiation exercise. I think this is healthy for the community and encourages (or should) people to come up with their own ingenious 'CNC only' projects - and there are a few of you out there who do share their hard work willingly. Thank you!

What I have a real problem with is the hording and sharing of 3D relief files - for 2 reasons. One, it takes real talent, skill and an understanding of aethetics to pull off good relief creation. This means that someone had to put in the time & energy to create it in the first place. As time goes on, there seems to be less and less respect for artists who create reliefs. The sharing of files that you didn't pay for is outright stealing. Same goes for 3D clipart that you buy...this should not be shared on the internet free-for-all. It is stealing. The 3D clipart that is available now is fine for most who lack the talent to create it themselves - and in most cases is cheaper than creating it yourself if that's what your clients want. Spend the few bucks on actually buying these files - Don't share them! Actual people with families make these files...in case anyone forgot that little tidbit!

The second reason is more philosophical. As a fellow craftsman, I know what it takes to sculpt things from scratch and hammer away at something that is truly original. 10 years ago, I could barely draw a stickman. But...I saw an ArtCAM demonstration, and dreamed, wished and hoped that some day I could also learn to sculpt. I wanted it really bad. I put in the time, day after day, night after night - working through the frustrations until I 'got' it. I cut my teeth and sharpened my proverbial chisel during these hours and days of intense trial and error and made $2/hr doing it as my customers paid me to learn... I think everyone should have to put in their time to properly learn the craft. YOU ARE STEALING FROM YOURSELF when you get lazy and share files, or take credit for something you didn't create yourself. Have a look around at those who repeatedly say, "Can I get a copy" - They have stolen from themselves as they will never get the joy or satisfaction of their own work - and that my friends, is the ultimate crime in all of this. It erodes the craft away until you are all cutting out the same eagle file looking for a trophy for your efforts.

Lastly, in recent years I have noticed the 'flavor' of people new to CNC change quite a bit. In the early years, there was a lot more original work being displayed and even shared on the SB and ArtCAM forums. Then I noticed that this file 'sharing' thing was becoming a normal occurance - an expectation, as if buying a CNC router somehow bought your way into also gaining free access to other's artistic merits - an entitlement. Knowing how much effort goes into creating something original makes, "Can I get a copy of that file?" WORSE than saying something snide about your mother. It says, "What you do is cheap and worthless - give me a copy - I'm entitled to it." This rampant disrespect for the craft and craftsman lead to a HUGE exodus of people's participation on some of these forums - which is why you don't see the same level of talent being displayed and shared anymore. Sorry to say, but most of the work I see now is a watered down mimeograhed copy of the talent of days gone by. It's not the same. I don't say that from sour grapes, but more of a "Hey you kids need to kick it up a notch if you want to be 'on the level' with your work." There is real money to be made when you create your own files & put in the time & effort...you get the BIG jobs. Excellence is not achieved by mistake!

You don't see as many high quality files out there because many of the really talented producers of these files are afraid of getting ripped off. Imagine putting 40 hours into a relief sculpture and you plan on selling 100 copies to make up for the time you invested. Then you sell only 10 copies, but find that you can download YOUR FILE(!) on some internet warez site. There is no recourse other than to stop selling the files...and we all lose as a result.

Anyway...those are a few reasons why file sharing and selling is not more prevalent on this board.

-B

[danhamm]

Amazing, when I read CCMarshes post I had this feeling in my gut,

Brady Watson, you just climbed to the top, with that post and you emptied the feelin in my gut, you are one damn good writer..

Salute'...

[ccmarsh]

I obviously have stuck a nerve with some of you and for that I truly am sorry. Make no mistake I do understand the hours it takes behind a computer desk designing things in cad/cam (Mastercam). However the things I create aren't even close to the beautiful work that I have seen on this forum so I have never had to worry about people "stealing my files" because, quite honestly, they are not that good. I also would never re-sale, re-distribute, or take credit for anyone elses's work however I forget sometimes that there are people out there that do. I am retired. CNC routing is a hobby for me, not a source of income. I don't even have my own machine I have to use the one at the college. My intention was to simply find a way to buy a cut file so that I could create the item for myself. To have in my own home nothing more.

Once again I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

[steve_g]

Chris

I don't think you offended anyone... just sparked open honest discussion of feelings and facts! Some, like Brady, have been around long enough to see the consequences of others actions. I personally was not aware of the 3D file hording mentality... I'll watch for and avoid this practice. Personally I've found few customers willing to pay for 3D work and have been honing my V-carve techniques and skills. I'm currently working on a V carving treatise I'll some day share here...

SG

[Brady Watson]

Chris,
No worries. No offense taken. Welcome to the ShopBot Forum.

I think this topic needs to be discussed and understood by all, so thank you for starting it. I prefer to give people straight up answers rather than sugar coated ones...and I also know that a lot of things I discussed were outside of your sphere of knowledge - so don't take what I wrote personally. I think that if I wasn't as verbose in my reply, I would be leaving out a lot of information & dancing around the proverbial elephant in the room - and that just isn't me.

-B

[bruce_taylor]

Vectric and many others have reliefs for sale, cheap and ready to cut, Most people use the machine to make things and most files are quick and custom so not much value to the people in the cnc world. The design software is so so advanced you can design most things very quickly until you get into 3d which is another animal altogether. Thats why you can buy a 3d relief pretty cheap ! Feelings are strong when it comes to people stealing other people intellectual property, like music, software etc. And you are amongst artists in this realm, You will find your imagination is the best developer and if you have a need and ask for help it is sure easy to come by on this form, I have had a great many people assist me in the past and makes me feel good about human nature when I think of the forum in todays world of so much evil. But people still need to protect what they have worked so hard to achieve, So the help is out there but you need to still do the making not just cut it out. Good luck in your adventures in cnc !

[shilala]

I'm a staunch believer in "teach a man how to fish".
There are people who wish to share of themselves freely, to share ideas, help, and the joy of collaborating is it's own reward.
I've also learned everything I've learned shopbot-related by studying very hard. I've taken job after job only to tax myself, forcing myself to learn more.
There are many here that have helped me, and for that I'm not only eternally grateful, but I'll do the best I can to pay it back tenfold over time. If someone wants my knowledge or files, they're theirs. That comes with a caveat. There are those of like mind, and there are mooches who are simply looking out for themselves. I don't mean anyone specifically here, not by any means. I'm speaking of the world at large.
One of the greatest joys in woodworking is to share what we've learned, but some simply like to take.

Brady covered a lot of things that are very important, especially in protecting one's income. It's important to be careful and protect the mouths you have to feed with your work.

Chris, you'll find who you can share with and who you can't. Eugene King and I help each other out a lot. We share our projects, knowledge and resources as brothers. He came up to hang with me for 3 days to help move him along with his software, and he taught me more than I taught him. Bottom line, for him and me, we're all in this life thing together. When I'm looking out for mine, I'm looking out for his, and vice versa. There are many, many people who are so minded, and wish to work as a group, not an exclusive entity.
I won't cast any judgement on which is better or worse, I just find myself happier in the latter. I like to look out for my brothers and have them looking out for me, and to a very large proportion, that's exactly what happens here.
In some cases there has to be a tempering, though. If my existence is on making specially designed whatsits, I can't tell everyone in the world how to make them. On the other hand, I know the gentlemen here are all talented enough to look at what I've done and recreate it at will. I just know they're not going to, or not any more than to maybe make a whatsit for the wife and maybe some family members, which is exactly why I would have shared the files in the first place.
I don't think anyone would start selling my whatsit unless they asked me first, and odds are I'd tell them to please have a go at it if it will help them out.

The moral of my story...
Listen to Brady, and temper with love, just as he does. He doesn't help people all day long because he doesn't love them. Make friends that you are like-minded with, and share your knowledge with them. We make out better as a group, because we all have something special to bring to the table. We also have to watch each other's back, just as Brady suggested.
Stick around, make friends, and learn from them. You'll be amazed at how much these fine gentlemen will teach you and share with you, but it'll take time. I can't begin to express my gratitude, it's beyond words. I'm certain you'll feel the same. :)

[myxpykalix]

As you can see, their is as many opinions as members all with their own spin on it.
We were all a NEWBIE, like you, at one time or the other and the feeling of being a little overwhelmed can be frustrating. It's always nice to have someone to help guide you along and make you understand how to do something.

In the beginning I asked alot of questions and DID ask for files from people because that was how i learned. I could load that file up in Partwizard and look at the various settings and correlate that to what i was trying to make, so there is some value in sharing (depending on if it is your original work).

Most times when you want to figure something out if you ask here someone will guide you thru the process so you can figure it out and use that knowledge to apply it to other projects.

It's too easy to make a simple keyboard mistake and bury your bit in your table. I'll never forget once when i first started i was asking about how a toolpath worked and some D-BAG (who rarely contributed) said "figure it out for yourself!" and rather then getting into it with him, i tried figuring it out and buried my bit in my table and it bored a hole which you could see the floor thru before it stopped.
I'm glad he hasn't posted for years..what a jerk...the point is ask as many questions as you want people will help here and when you get some experience under your belt you will be able to
"FIGURE IT OUT FOR YOURSELF":rolleyes::D:p

[genek]

This is my take on the matter of sharring files. Copy righted files should never be shared. The person that dreamed up, drew, and designed it has the right to it, he can give it away, sale it or just post it for those to look at. If that artist wants to give it to you, does not mean you have the right to give it to other people. Copying someones work is as the old times say flatery , i know from developing new product lines for my company that i will be copied within six months... So i am always looking for new ideals or real old ideals to bring to life.. My company makes items for berea college student arts, everyso often they have me to make changes to their products. This year they asked me to design a spoon that can not be dublicated on a lathe... I have come up with that design for them... I used the two rail system that i learned to do a few weeks ago... Thanks to a man that was willing to teach me how to make signs etc. (scott ) i would not mind sharring my files, with someone else if it were totaly my design... But if someone sharred with me i would not share it eleswhere without their permission... I have even been known to buy a copy righted file for someone else as a gift rather than share the file i paid for. I did this on several occassion with copy righted laser files.
I have asked for people to share files with me.. So far i have not cut any, or made that product... Their was no joy in doing that.
I do use vector art 3d from time to time to inhance some of my other work... But because i bought it does not mean it is legal or that i can share it... The person that designs them are the only ones that should be able to give it away no one else has that right,

i have offered to share some of my files from time to time and offered to design somethings for others.. This is my choice and this is how it should be.
I ranted to much here...

[knight_toolworks]

I share stuff I make but it is things like utility carts and such. Must of what I cut is not mine and most of what I design is nothing thrilling.

[genek]

Steve everything one designs including yours is thrilling.. It takes thought and creativity to design things... So they are thrilling...
Never sale your self short.

[ccmarsh]

So.....it boils down to Copyright issues. I just got done reading the thread about the civil war officers chair. I pulled out my issue of Woodworker's Journal and re-read the article by A.J. Hamler. It never said in the article or in the magazine about the copyright of the chair. (atleast none that I read but I could be wrong) Then I read another article in Better Homes and Gardens WOOD on a Potpourri Box. At the end of the article it specifially stated you could make the box for personal use but that was it. You couldn't reproduce it for profit. So can I make copies of the chair but not the box? It can be somewhat confusing.

I believe a lot of it comes down to personal pride as well. You are all very skilled craftsman and probably don't believe in reproducing someone else's work in a magazine even if it didn't specifically say you couldn't.

Chris

[CNYDWW]

I've helped a few people and some of them a few different times on the forum. Most of it hasn't been sharing ideas, it's been their ideas just a different way of doing it. In the passed I have improved products and sold them. Partly because it's a good idea but just poorly built. As far as the civil war chair, if it had an original patent it must have expired by now. It's not like there's still a legal patent for a standard light bulb. Unless it's been improved on from the original design there wouldn't be a reproduction issue. Reproduction is a big thing, i've had a few customers come to me in the passed looking for replica civil war items too. (pre cnc days)

Regards
Randy

[ccmarsh]

Oh I see, a copyright is like a Patent. After 7 years (I think it's seven) it can be reproduced it without persmission. But what if an article dosen't claim a copyright? Or a Website for that matter. A good example of this would be the Valentines Day "You've captured my heart" project that was recently introduced. A person could change it to "Iowa captured my heart" and then could they then turn around and sell it?

I hope you all realize I'm just looking for information here. The research that I have done gives me some answers however most of you are running a business and I would rather hear it from someone that is "in the field" so to speak.

Chris

[shilala]

Chris, I think the safest route to take is "If I didn't create it, I can't use it for profit". That goes for pretty much everything in life, right down to the warnings you hear during football games that "you can't use any of this broadcast without the express written consent of the NFL."
If someone creates a file and gives it to you and says you can use it to make money, there ya go. Knock yourself out. Otherwise, leave it alone.
The files at Vectric are created for our personal use. Personal use in my mind means making a "Captured My Heart" project for my friends and family, not to sell them. Vectric may be trying to help their users out by giving them a little something they can sell, I don't know. It's easy enough to ask. I'm ashamed I can't remember the brother's name that creates those files, I sat through an online class with him a couple weeks ago and he visits here. I'm sure he's easy enough to get ahold of, he sure isn't hiding. Ask him.
It's no different than someone here sharing a file with me. I know full well that person's intent is for me to use it to make my family and friends smile, not to make a living off it, ESPECIALLY knowing that's what the person is doing with these projects in the first place.
There is a huge amount of trust between the people here, it's an exceptional thing. Just be up front about what you're thinking and they'll tell you if it's right or wrong.
In the meantime, I think the best policy is "If I didn't create it, I can't sell it."

[kartracer63]

There are misconceptions when it comes to copyright laws. And, I'll preface this by stating I'm not a copyright lawyer.

You're not required to file any special paperwork or forms with anybody to own copyright to original work. However, you should have some sort of proof of origination and the date you're claiming copyright protection. Example, a photo published to your website of your original work would be more than enough to cover yourself in a copyright case.

You can also file copyrights with the federal government to make it even more solid. But really, all you need is proof you had created your work before someone else copied it.

There are certain items, such as furniture and clothing which no longer
qualify for copyright protections. But, if you have created an improvement or even a totally new design that is revolutionanary, you could file for a patent to protect your work. You cannot copyright a basic shape either. In other words, you can't copyright a simple round sign or a simple square or rectangular sign either. However, you can trademark the contents of the sign or a tagline or logo. Or, you could patent a finishing process that would make your round sign last forever, or do something unique and unlike any other sign up until you came along with your brilliant idea.

Unlike patents, copyrights don't expire until 75 years after the copyright holder's death. Many people get patents, copyrights and trademarks mixed up and some people will never even try to understand the difference.

Some people think that if they just make a very small modification to the original design, they are free to claim it as their own. They're wrong! New designs need to be distinctively different to not only claim as their own, but to not infringe on someone else's copyright.

And, just because somebody doesn't state that the work they've created (and many times published in some small way) is copyrighted, doesn't mean that it isn't copyrighted. By simply creating it and documenting it, it's copyrighted... period! And, just because someone doesn't spell out that it's copyrighted and it's forbidden to copy it under penalty of law, doesn't mean you're free to copy it.

I can't believe that this actually needs to be spelled out to anybody. If it's not yours... don't take it.

[ccmarsh]

Thank you Scott and Erik. That's exactly what I was looking for, simple clarification. I believe I'm going to live by the "If I didn't create it, I can't sell it." motto.

I knew this was the place to get my questions answered.



Chris

[genek]

Theoretically and lawfully upon creation of a specific work of art or design you own it, but proving it becomes difficult in a situation where another person is claiming the same design and neither of you have a legal back up and when you obtain a copy right from the library of congress, for an unsold or unpublished work, a new and differant copy right must be issued when it becomes published or sold publicly.

The copy right laws are very complex and there has been many changes in the last couple of decades. We can thank sonny bono for his work in congress for improving our rights as artist, and for the extension of our rights beyound our death. The copy right may be willed or given to another person or entity beyond our death.

Two people can interpret and draw or create simular objects but unique to their own perspective. Example i can draw a log and you can draw a log and neither of us are infringing on each other. If you work for hire is a total seperate thing. You do not own the copy right the company does..

[genek]

Food for thought, if tax money or public money is used to design, make or build something.. It is public domin. I have seen collegiate licence try to bully their way in federal court (where copy right cases are tried) only to lose and end up paying the person they took to court for their lawyers and time lost.
You can not just up and take someone to court for copy right law violations, you first have to issue a cease and assist order.
Some companies and persons will try to bully others into thinking they have the exclusive rights to all drawings of an object... When they actually do not. There are people and companies that do this knowing that if it goes to court they would lose, but hope that the person that they take to court will cave in and pay them and give up...
If you think you are in the right ask a lawyer. Any questions concerning copy rights should be addressed to a lawyer... None of us on here are lawyers. And this is mostly how we see the law.
There are large grey areas in the law...
If all patents, copy rights, and trade marks were 100% we would only have one auto maker, one phone company, one compter company etc... Thinking up something or having a idea is not copy rightable or patentable. The actully drawing or design is... But that does not mean two people can not have the same type of drawing or design.
IF that was truly the case ford motors would be the only car maker.

[genek]

Simple rules to follow for copy right... Did i design or draw it. .. If yes do as you please.
Did someone give it to me.. If yes do i know for sure that they own it. If yes go to it. If no stay away from it.
We all know deep inside if what we are doing is legal or not...
TRACING OVER ANOTHERS WORK IS STILL VIOLATING COPY RIGHT LAWS.. TOTALLY DRAWING IT BY HAND IS NOT.

[shilala]

Thank you Scott and Erik. That's exactly what I was looking for, simple clarification. I believe I'm going to live by the "If I didn't create it, I can't sell it." motto.

I knew this was the place to get my questions answered.

Chris
I think that'll serve you well, my friend.

In my time I've invented and sold a very large number of different things, and done really well at it. Some were simply an improvement on a process using totally different media. Some were things I thought up to make my life easier. most were inventions I had no desire to produce and sell, so I just sold the inventions. Some were even ideas my kids had.
I remember one time I was trying to figure out a way to simulate reading temperature inside an egg while it was incubating. (Bear with me, this story always makes me smile.) My daughter, who was about 7 at the time, asked what I was doing. I explained it to her, told her what I needed, and she said "Wait a minute." A minute later she came back with a toy of hers that worked perfectly. To this day people all over the world are using the system she figured out. Anyone can, and have copied that idea. It's rudimentary. It was just a good idea that nobody had thought of yet. I made a bunch of money from it, my ex still does, and I'm sure people are selling our system all over the place. I don't care.
Point of that is that sooner or later something you've done will be copied. To me, it's never been worth the time to even chase people and squawk about it. I'll come up with lots more ideas and keep moving ahead.
I thank God that I've been blessed so that the inspiration and knowledge is there to keep learning and doing new things. I figure if I spend one second fighting about something I've already done that someone is copying, then I'm losing an opportunity to learn and create new things.
Life is very short, I want to stay on the smiling side.
(That's not to say we don't need to use sense in protecting how we make a living, it's simply my view on the subject and it's served me well.)

Stick around here and let these fine gentlemen teach you how to create the things you have in your mind. Ask friends for ideas. They'll keep you busy with projects that challenge you and make you learn.
You're going to have the time of your life, my friend. I sure am!!! :)

[gene]

What if i purchase a 3D cut file from James Booth that i add to a product that i make to sell for profit. I think that is OK to do . Now i think that it is definately wrong to sell , loan, give , rent or distribute the cut file in any way that i purchased from James. When i purchased the 3D cut file it was for my use and as long as i am using the file to BUILD a product for sale its fine. and not to resell his work.

[genek]

You can not resale any file or give away any file that contains a copy righted product in it... The copy right file must be removed or changed so much that it is a total new design. Adding copy righted to a file or building a product around a copy righted file does not do away with the copy right.. You did not change that file. You only added items with the file to your file.

[Brady Watson]

What if i purchase a 3D cut file from James Booth that i add to a product that i make to sell for profit. I think that is OK to do . Now i think that it is definately wrong to sell , loan, give , rent or distribute the cut file in any way that i purchased from James. When i purchased the 3D cut file it was for my use and as long as i am using the file to BUILD a product for sale its fine. and not to resell his work.

Yes. Exactly. RE: http://www.vectorart3d.com/license/

-B

[phil_o]

Scott,

this discussion has been very interesting. I haven't had anything to add so I've kept quiet. I'm glad you chimed in, you point of view is also interesting and added some perspective to the topic.
However, please don't leave us hanging, I want to know the brilliant idea your 7 year old daughter came up with. I want to tell this story to my grandkids. I'll have to save it for a while, my grandson isn't quite 4 and grandaughter almost 2. But I will save it for the right moment.

Thanks,

Phil

[crash5050]

I have no problem renting (that is actually what we do) art from Vectorart3d, and I don't have a problem with paying anyone for crv files for stuff. for instance, I am working on a kingsized headboard, doweling and glue to hold the planks of cedar together. And I am going to use a copywrited scene from my Design and carve on it, however, I don't know how to do the mortise and tenons to attach the bedposts to the frame. I would gladly pay a nominal fee to someone who had a headboard crv that they had created so i could modify, and here is the big one "learn" how to do it myself. I am a visual learner.

So, I don't see an issue if someone on this board or over on the vectric board selling the work they do. Unless it is proprietary to the client, or I would be in direct competition with that person (yeah right, no competiton here)

I want to build things with my bot, A toybox for my Grand Daughter, a bar for my home, etc. We have a saying in the Army, why re-invent the wheel? Sell your stuff, make a dollar or two and not only provide the newbies with some confidence, but also the ability to study the crv files and learn from them,

just my .01 workth (I just bought a new shopbot, they took my other .01)

David

[genek]

DAVID FIRST THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE. I'M RETIRED NAVY... HOW BIG ARE THE POST IF THEY ARE BIG ENOUGH YOU CAN CUT THE MORTISE IN WITH THE SHOP BOT.. MODIFY THE HEAD BOARD TO FIT IN THE MORTISE.. SEND ME A PRIVIATE E-MAIL eking1953@yahoo.com do you have corel.. will show you how to lay it out.
I USE COREL TO DRAW IN ( I LEARNED COREL FIRST) I CAN TAKE IT FROM COREL TO ASPIRE. OR SEND IT AS A DXF FILE. I AM LEARNING ASPIRE BUT WHERE I AM USED TO COREL IT IS HARDER TO LEARN ASPIRE.

[myxpykalix]

David,
Depending on the shape of your headboard you could do this a couple different ways. Do you have a drawing or picture of the way you want to connect the two? If you go to this thread:
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15677 then to:
http://s98.photobucket.com/albums/l249/brianharnett/Modified%20and%20Made%20Machines/?action=view&current=chair.mp4

you'll see Brian Harnett has a pretty slick setup for doing tenons. It looks like the toolpath is a pretty simple pocketing toolpath (his stock is thinner so one pass would do his, yours might be a bit bigger). But the action and idea are pretty much the same, you are just pocketing out the outside edges to make the rounded tenons.

Maybe he will jump in and explain how he made his toolpaths for you.
You could do it simpler with just dowels and holes on both parts.

[shilala]

Scott,

this discussion has been very interesting. I haven't had anything to add so I've kept quiet. I'm glad you chimed in, you point of view is also interesting and added some perspective to the topic.
However, please don't leave us hanging, I want to know the brilliant idea your 7 year old daughter came up with. I want to tell this story to my grandkids. I'll have to save it for a while, my grandson isn't quite 4 and grandaughter almost 2. But I will save it for the right moment.

Thanks,

Phil
I sent you a pm, brother.

[bruce_taylor]

david,
One thing you may want to keep in mind a cnc is a great asset but not the end all tool, For mortise and tenon work it is hard to beat a mortiser and a tenon cutter. I know not as challenging as cutting it out on the bot but unless you have a bunch to do it won't be any better after the time involved in indexing the part. I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with me but this is my opinion only my two cents, with about a penny today.

[bleeth]

Setting up a mortise is dead easy. All it is, after all, is a slot. Tenons can be more challenging for two reasons. If your parts are flat on the table then you need to do a flip operation and if you put together a jig to hold your part vertically at the end of the table then you are restricted in the length of your part. Depending on what you are building you can often lay out your parts design for half tenons (similar to a rabbet cut). I do a series of small tables for another company that uses this strategy to cut multiple parts from sheet goods.
Do some test cuts in scrap after you have your design as you very likely will need to make some adjustments in the sizing of the cuts for proper fit.
That being said, working out repeatable position for parts alignment and doing the toolpath work in the design software is a great exercise in learning to use your tool.

Also note that using a shiplap can solve a lot of problems and it can be used as a pleasing design element.

For beds using mortise and tenon on the headboard and/or footboard is good carpentry but using bed hardware to attach the side rails is the way to go.

[genek]

Chris that is correct... The 3d file is not yours to sale or give away... You bought the right to use the file in projects you make not the right to resale, copy or give away THE 3D FILE OR ANY FILE YOU BUY OR ARE GIVEN... Resale, copying or giving it away, is a violation of copy right laws... And you can be taken to court for that.

[genek]

David. You can do what i call a half mortise.. You leave say 3 inch wide by what ever offset you want. Cut the mortise the same size as your head board and inset the 3 inch sections into the post..

[crash5050]

I haven't got my bot yet, (Dianne said 4 weeks), but that was 2 weeks ago. There is a guy over on Vectric forum that built a queen bed all on his CNC.

http://www.vectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=11697

Now if this was me, just saying. A guy sends me an email say's Dude that is awesome, would you sell me the plans for that less the JB artwork, (I own Design and carve so it really wouldn't matter).. I would say, sure pay pal me 20 bucks, use and abuse it. 10 people buy your plan, you have paid for the materials to build your bed. No brainer to me. (Note: Not Bashing Greg, just using that as an example)

I come from the world of Linux, and the open source community, so I have the mentality that if I create something, I am willing to give it away. But I also realize we have a machine that costs money to buy, and to operate. That's why I would gladly pay for cool projects that I could make, and use, and even sell, again if I was not in competition with others.

I don't know about other newbie shopbotters, but I go looking thru the virtual show and tell folders and I get really discouraged, thinking I have made a mistake buying this machine. I have Aspire, and I try to recreate some of the things I see in there and all I end up doing is wasting time, money and material trying to cut it. Understandably, it takes time to master the art of CNC, but here and again a part coming out like it should builds confidence, and drives me to want to learn more and waste more time and money on my own designs.

Sorry about the rant, but I just bought a 13K machine, with absolutley no knowledge of how I am going to make it pay for itself....... Fear usually get's me up on my soap box.

If ever you see me post something that I did and you want it, pm me and I will freely send it to you.

David

[Brady Watson]

would you sell me the plans for that less the JB artwork, (I own Design and carve so it really wouldn't matter).. I would say, sure pay pal me 20 bucks, use and abuse it. 10 people buy your plan, you have paid for the materials to build your bed. No brainer to me.

Yes - that is the correct way to do it. Take out that which you don't have permission to sell/trade and do whatever you want with the portion that you contributed to the piece. Selling your stuff just makes good business sense, if that is what you want to do. Karma always has a way of helping or hindering you...and we all know right from wrong. You can't run from it.



I come from the world of Linux, and the open source community, so I have the mentality that if I create something, I am willing to give it away. But I also realize we have a machine that costs money to buy, and to operate. That's why I would gladly pay for cool projects that I could make, and use, and even sell, again if I was not in competition with others.

If you wind up designing your own stuff, it's 100% up to you to share it, sell it or keep it all to yourself so that you can turn a profit on your time. It's great to have community projects, freebies and give-aways; but they don't pay the bills.



I don't know about other newbie shopbotters, but I go looking thru the virtual show and tell folders and I get really discouraged, thinking I have made a mistake buying this machine. I have Aspire, and I try to recreate some of the things I see in there and all I end up doing is wasting time, money and material trying to cut it. Understandably, it takes time to master the art of CNC, but here and again a part coming out like it should builds confidence, and drives me to want to learn more and waste more time and money on my own designs.

What one man can do, another can do* - Watch it, live it, feel it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ALOI63X_CE) *With desire, determination and perseverance - you really can do nearly anything you put your mind to. Don't get discouraged. Nobody is born knowing how to draw in CAD. It is going to be frustrating - I GAR-OWN-TEE it! But without chaos and frustration, there can be no true learning or breakthroughs. Stick with it. Break things down into their basic shapes. It takes time AND unbeknownst to most people, it takes time for your brain to develop enough to really get 3D relief design. You've probably never used that part of your brain before...so be patient. Search 'HemiSync' it made a difference for me. You may bang your head against the wall every day - stay at it until you have the breakthrough you need - when you get it, you'll get it and there is nothing like that feeling! Most people will never know what they are truly capable of...surprise yourself.


Energy and persistence conquer all things. -Benjamin Franklin



Sorry about the rant, but I just bought a 13K machine, with absolutley no knowledge of how I am going to make it pay for itself...

No need to be sorry. I dropped $27,000 on my machine way back in 2001. Those dollars were worth a lot more than they are now. I had NO IDEA what I was going to do with it - I just knew intuitively that it was right for me. You should never second guess yourself...because that just leaves you feeling like a moron now and back when you made the decision. There are real gems waiting for you if you DO THE WORK to make the machine an extension of your own creativity. It is just an instrument - you can spend a million dollars on an instrument and not practice enough to even play the simplest of tunes on it. Trust yourself. Keep your eyes on your 'own paper' - and come up with your own stuff from your own cup. You'll do just fine & get paid to do what you love.

Not everyone has the time or inclination to invest in learning how to draw well in 3D. That's OK. That's why you can buy 3D clipart to enhance your design, send your hand-carved original out to be digitized, digitize it yourself or pay someone to sculpt it from scratch for you. You don't have to do any 3D at all on your machine. In fact, it is hard to make money doing 3D compared to how much you can make doing 2D cutouts etc. You need to master 2D drawing and machining before you can master anything dealing with 3D. It always comes back to bite you in the hiney if you don't. Try not to yoke yourself with the stressful idea that you NEED to learn 3D in order to make money. This is NOT true. Take a deep breath!


-B

[shilala]

David, I paid 13K for a machine I had absolutely no experience with, no idea how to run it, and no clue what it could do with it (I hadn't even found the forums yet), all on an idea. I just wanted to make wicked badass desktop humidors like the world has never seen before and knew the shopbot would get me there.
I've only been at it for 2 months and can make salable items. And I mean NICE salable items. Awesome gifts, too. Money saved on gifts for our giant family is money left in the pocketbook, ya know?
I watched all the videos at Vectric. All of them. I watched every single video I could find on Youtube. I've read manual after manual. I read the forums and suck up stuff like a sponge.
When I see those projects in virtual show and tell I look at them and figure out how they're made. Just the other night I thought about a letter on a sign, then thought how cool it'd be if it was different. I wanted the 3d letter sitting on a rounded platform shaped like itself, then pocketed out and textured inside. I have never seen THAT letter on a sign and I have looked at a gazillion signs. It woke me up about 3 times that night and when I got out of bed I immediately went and created it. I was thrilled at how quickly I made it come alive exactly the way I wanted it.
So I'm just approaching it from a different angle than you are. Those projects are my challenge, and they are the ideas I need to teach me what the machine can do. I already know it can be done because I've just seen it, ya know?
My machine had to sit for a solid month at least before I even fired it up. I didn't have the shop finished and I had a number of other things going on that I had to get done. Once I was wrapped up I just threw myself at it lock, stock and barrel.
I have an incredibly long way to go before I can do what I envisioned, but each little project gets me closer.
Your computer background will make this very easy on you. If you have a good grasp of photoshop or any other graphic art programs, it's a very easy transition. You'll really be shocked at how easy it is.
Using the machine is what it is. You just have to read a bit, play around, get the axis' in your head, then understand your tools. That was easy for me because I've worked with tools almost all my life and I've worked with wood for nearly as long.
If you aren't very adept at woodworking, you need a mess of Fine Woodworking magazines, Woodworking books, and things of that nature. If I didn't have all the background in all the things that lend themselves to the shopbot, the curve would be a lot tougher.
A guy can't just start a shopbot and make a dresser if he doesn't already know how to make a dresser. The shopbot isn't magic. It's just a tool. A big, honkin', sweet tool that does the work of lots of hand tools all at once.

[Brady Watson]

Good for you, Scott!

It sounds like you have the hunger & desire (energy) to pull you into the future. I've found that if you want something bad enough & are committed to being unstoppable, then your vision is pretty much a sure thing.

Starting out, my story was similar to yours - absorbing everything I could and doing my own 'R&D' to figure out how to do things. I hope that other new users read what you wrote and have the courage to be who they need to be to succeed.

-B

[myxpykalix]

Now that i understand what you want to do, having a vertical vice and doing it like i referenced won't work.
I would go with a loose tenon like this:
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?site=ROCKLER&page=18854
probably the easiest to do.

[ccmarsh]

I just got done looking at the tables Dan made awhile back. They were beautiful. I saw how many people asked (and begged) for the design. Dan got burned (his words). I still believe it would be better if there was a place on the forum for everyone to sell their designs. As long as there is a disclaimer in the guidelines stating you can only make it for yourself, you can't re-sale the cut file. You can't give the file away once you've purchased it and you can't mass produce it, ect, ect. It would be a lot safer, you wouldn't have everyone begging for a copy, and a person could make a little extra income.

I know i'm new here but to be honest, I can't "ask someone" for a design. It wouldn't feel right. I know what it takes to create in 3d. I'd have to pay or I wouldn't feel comfortable you know. I know that sounds weird, "why pay for something when you could get it for free". That's just not how I was raised.

[adrianm]

As long as there is a disclaimer in the guidelines stating you can only make it for yourself, you can't re-sale the cut file. You can't give the file away once you've purchased it and you can't mass produce it, ect, ect. It would be a lot safer, you wouldn't have everyone begging for a copy, and a person could make a little extra income.

Unfortunately, from bitter experience, as soon as a couple of files are sold they will appear on all the file sharing sites and shortly afterwards will appear on other forums with people claiming them as their own.

It's a major problem with society these days that so many people just don't respect the production of digitial goods. They think that as long as one person has paid then it's ok to copy it as it costs "nothing" to produce further copies.

With the actual manufacturing of products getting cheaper and cheaper (not to mention providing less employment via automation) it's the actual design process where all the money is. As soon as companies try to put any form of copy protection on their goods the "internet" is up in arms about it though.

[ccmarsh]

I see. I think I'm done with this topic. Its obviously to me that once again a few good apples have spoiled the bunch.

I hope you all are well and I look forward to viewing your next projects.

Take care.

[crash5050]

I gotta chime in here on that last comment, nobody here was asking anybody to give away anything. Look at the title, Ideas for SALE!! Nobody was asking for anyone to give away copyrighted material.

Blood sweat and tears is a commodity, commodities are for sale. If you drew a bookcase, a table, or even something more intricate in partworks, why would you not want to sell it to a non competitor for a reasonable price, it dang sure aint making you money on your flash drive.

just my .01 (Dianne got the other .01)

[genek]

who's dianne... lol

[crash5050]

Sales Manager at Shopbot

[genek]

dianne let you of cheap... she cost me .25... lol...i thought i knew who you were talking about just want to have some fun lmsao

[crash5050]

No she got me for 13K! Her and Ryan conspired against me..... That's it it is a conspiracy. BTW thanks for the puller.

[genek]

they tend to do that. lol... you are welcome... i cut 2" material 4 to 8 foot long with as many cuts as possible... then use the band saw to slice them into 1/4 inch slabs.. by the way when i say 2 inch it is actually 2 inch rough... that i have planned one side of...
the hole is slotted on the band saw to 3/8 inch in the middle.. look at my picture of it.

[crash5050]

I have a truck load of 1/4 mdf, 4x8 sheets. I wonder?????

[genek]

heat and water may make them useless, also not sure if they would put off toxic fumes when the get hot... i use solid wood and i dip them in mineral oil (mineral oil is food safe)

[phil_o]

Wow, I don't see why Chris is taking a beating here. The quote below is taken from his initial post. He suggests that we have a venue on this forum to sell our files. He states that he would buy them.
I would like to welcome you to the forum, Chris. I hope you don't give up on the group.

Phil




I quickly noticed however that when it comes to sharing files...the conversations ended abruptly. I quess my question is why isn't there a Forum on Shopbot where people can sell the files of the things that they have created? I know there is one for Shopbot's that are for sale or accessories for the machine but no place for files. I also know that you can go to Vectric and other places to buy cut files. I've seen the work that many of you have done and have been amazed and I bet many of you could make some very good money selling your files. I'd buy some.

I appologize if this is the wrong place to post this question.

[Nancy]

Removed some posts that were not furthering the original question on why aren't there more cutting/design files available for sale.

[myxpykalix]

Here is a filesharing thread over on cnczone that it over 500 pages in size and it is mostly 2d stuff and many guys help others in converting things or vectorizing files. You might want to check it out:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general_metalwork_discussion/19346-share_your_files_part_art.html

[steve_g]

Jack

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you!



"I'm glad this site isn't like some other CNC sites where blatant copyright infringement is going on..."

In this quote from page one of this thread I was referring to this site specifically... it's full of corporate logos, team logos, vector files from the Vector Art ™ series and art work I've seen in national advertising campaigns... It's possible that some "changes" were made to the files but, the rule of thumb I was given is... "does the original artist recognize it as their work"? in many cases not only would the original artist recognize it, but I recognize it as copyrighted work!

I would rather pay a reasonable fee for something I know is legitimate than to take something from someone hiding behind a "nom de plume". In fairness to cnczone and others... It's impossible to police! The only way you can even attempt to control blatant infringement is to limit file size...

That said... here are my favorite sites.

http://www.briarpress.org/ (http://www.briarpress.org/) Briar Press is a community of 66,590 printers and artists dedicated to the preservation of letterpress. They have 788 vectors of printers ornaments... most free.

http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/ (http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/) quality educational clipart. Every item comes with a choice of image size and format as well as complete source information. No advertisement-filled pages with pop-up windows or inappropriate links here. You'll need to convert these to vectors, but the effort will be worth the reward.

Enjoy!

SG

[genek]

Guys.. I don't think anyone meant to be hurt full or mean... but i think we have covered this subject enough. deep inside we all know what is right and wrong... let us all drop this before feelings get hurt.. we are all friends on here... lets keep it that way all of us friends and bot owners. lol

(Excellent post to end this thread - Nancy, Admin)