trying to make an etched lit sign..please help

[donny4774]

Hello,



hey guys i've been trying to figure this out for a few month now and can't seem to get anywhere.

my objective is to have a 42x42 inch piece of glass with an etched logo in it and then have it lit with led lights.

the use is going to be for my store front of my business as my main sign.


i have made TWO signs already with the design i want but the lights are just not bright enough.

it is lit decently but it just isn't what i want it to be...

i am looking for some sort of solution to my problem. the guy "SAID" he used the brightest leds available but im not sure.


i think it's just a regular piece of glass not sure how thick but im sure it's not that thick. i don't know if a thicker piece would be benificial or not.

also i heard that starphire glass is better???? i have no idea what to do...if there is any one out there that can help me out please do so and i am willing to pay for your time....i really want this type of design for my sign but im having a hard time getting a person who know's what they are doing.


thanks in advance to every one...


Donny.

[Xray]

Thats asking alot of LED's to effectively light a sign that large.
Have you surrounded the entire perimeter of the sign, or just the bottom ,, And are we talking actual glass, or plexi ?
A sign that large, maybe bright fluorescent tubes would be the way to go.

[bleeth]

Donny:
The size is not to big for LED's if they are on all four sides but you may not be able to overcome the brightness of the ambiant light in the area outshining the LED's. There are basically 2 different densities of LED strips used for edge lighting. Also of you are using RGB then some colors do not come off so well except in less bright areas.

Lot's more needs to be known about your sign and where it is located to give any meaningful assistance.

Dave

[donny4774]

hey guys thanks for the replys.


the led's are surrounded all the way around the the sign.

i was just looking through my note's and i noticed that they are 600 ultra bright leds per roll.

i need them to be super bright because they are no where near what they need to be.

[bleeth]

600/5m 5050 white is as bright as you can get for edge lighting. If this is in a storefront display window with a bunch of ceiling cans above the sign then try putting a dimmer on the cans and toning them down a bit. Less light in the surrounding area helps make a sign "pop".
I would be using 3/8 or 1/2" glass for that. Starphire is an ultra clear (no greenish hue when seen from the edge) glass but I don't know personally whether it makes a better edge-lit glass or not. We do ours in cast acrylic but have had the same issue when used in a brightly lit area. The only solution so far is to turn down or shade the surrounding light.

[twelchPTM]

I get my leds from superbrightleds.com. Just recently made a 4'x5' edgelit spider web using rgb leds. In my opinion acrylic looks better then real glass, Do not polish the edges, and make sure the light has nowhere to go except through the panel.
It helps to think of light as a liquid or collection of solid particlals. It wants to escape and will take the path of least resistance much like running water. What makes edglighting work is the spots where the light meets such resitance. I cut the pider web once as a shallow pocket with a square end mill but it wasn't bright enough but when I carved it with a v-bit about 3/8" deep into 1/2" acrylic the v shaped lines really intensified the effect.

[donny4774]

here is a photo of it

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn223/Donnyals/sign.jpg

[curtiss]

Donny,

The Sign looks pretty nice from here, what type of glass is it and what bit did you use ?


Thomas

...but when I carved it with a v-bit about 3/8" deep into 1/2" acrylic the v shaped lines really intensified the effect.

So with cast acrylic .....say 1/4 thick ... cut about 3/16" deep with a v-bit ?

Do you have a favorite rpm and feed rate ? Do you cut the linework all in one pass ?

[MogulTx]

I have done a lot of glass work. Starphire is good stuff, but you will have a heck of a time getting someone to engrave it deeply enough to make it work for you. I would definitely recommed the acrylic/plexi route.

I think the sign looks pretty darn good. As Dave Rosenbleeth mentioned, you may be overcome by the ambient lighting around the sign. There ARE brighter LED's, but I don't know that they are commercially available at this time.

One other thing you might try it placing the LED's into a U shaped trough of chromed metal or plastic (and all of that into the frame material). That will redirect your light as best as you probably can for such a project- and get you your max lumens into the material... Something LIKE this, only bright anodized. ( See part C20606) http://www.brunnerent.com/Tools/Portfolio/frontend/itemlist.asp?type=7&size=0&lngDisplay=0

Get a light meter and check it before and after to see how much of an improvement you can make...

Best of luck to you.

[kubotaman]

I have a stupid question because I have never carved any glass. I take it that it is possible to carve glass to the depth of a quarter inch?? Why doesn't it break. Seems to me it must be very abrasive when cut. Also what is the product that the above sign is made of that has the reflective ability?

[Chuck Keysor]

Daryl, I have never carved glass, but I do like cut beveled glass that was used in decorative windows of the Victorian era.

When I read a book about engraving glass many years ago, it was clear that deep engraving of glass is a very challenging process. It involved using spinning wheels embedded with abrasives, with the artist carefully guiding the sheet of glass over the spinning wheels.

Again, the details are very foggy, but it is not a simple operation, or something that would suggest using a Bot. (I think scratch engraving of glass is about all that can be done with a Bot.) Chuck

[kubotaman]

Chuck I know exactly what you are referring to as far as "cutting' glass with a wheel under a table. That process is a way of grinding the glass with different shapes of wheels that have abrashives on them. I misundersttod the thread. I mistook that someone was cutting glass by use of different bits on the Bot. I re-read and then realized they were only etching the glass.

[bobmoore]

Glass has a mohs hardness of 6 and can easily be cut or carved without breaking with diamond bits and a water bath. The sheet of glass is normally elevated on vacuum pods and drilled and routed from there. Big iron is the way to go for efficiency. Unless you want a big challenge the bot is not going to work well for this application as the spoilboard would have to be waterproof. Bob

[paul_z]

My experience with etching glass or acrylic and then using side lighting has been very poor. The reason that side lighting works so well is that the light is trapped in the sheet due to total internal reflection. (It’s an issue of the direction of the light and the difference between the index of reflection of the sheet and of air.)

Etching with a sand blaster makes little pock marks and very little of the light actually encounters the pockmarks. Further, the angle of the pock mark walls is rather random so the angle that the light leaves the sheet at a pock mark is also rather random.

V Carving the sheet creates gullies that are a considerable percentage of the thickness of the sheet and therefor the same percentage of the light traveling through the sheet. If one uses a 90 degree V bit, the 45 degree walls of the gulley are quite close to the angle needed to get maximum refraction (for acrylic) and reflection of the light perpendicular to the sheet which is where a viewer is most likely to view the sign. Choosing a V bit depth is a careful balance between getting some light to exit the sign and leaving enough light for the next gulley.

I tend to V Carve the backs of the sheets and rely on the reflected light; however, viewing from the back side (the refraction side) is not bad either.

Paul Z

[twelchPTM]

sorry for not getting back to you sooner... I believe I ran at my PC router at its max, that may not have been the best choice but it was one of my first projects. It did run in one pass. i used the depth per pass on the 60 degree v-carve that was already loaded into the software. I noticed you are using blue light, blue does not shine nearly as bright as white, perhaps you will get the effect you desire by using pure white LEDs with slightly tinted acylic.