Opinions on machine choice

[Summit11]

Hello guys, need some help/ direction in getting a Shopbot in January
The product that we will be cutting will come from hdf 1/4" 4x8 sheets approximately
1700 inches total cuts for the parts per sheet. Not intricate cuts pretty straight forward repeated pattern. My question is would a quality used machine make more sense to start or just go for the Buddy 48" with powerstick. I dont anticipate needing it/using it for any other production than as described however I realize these machines have a way of finding news uses/purposes for us creative folk:) As an example would a good used 2001 prt 96 w/ 4x8 table be suitable and more practical as I have come across them for $ 6-7k. I guess I should also include that initially we will be cutting 40 sheets a month, but could get to a point of higher volume (300 per month). All of your expertise and wisdom is apprecited. Thanks- David

[Ajcoholic]

I love the Buddy, I have one (set up for 48" by 48") but, for cutting full 4 by 8 sheets, I'd be looking for a full size fixed table machine.

I am sure the regulars will chime in, and concur.

AJC

[shoeshine]

Yup, got to agree with Andrew. I have a buddy 48 and it is kind of a pain to set up for full sheet cutting. It also takes up more floor space in "full sheet mode" than a fixed table 48x96. You have to deal with out feed rollers and such. It is nice to have that flexibility but I have access to a full sized machine at work and take all my big stuff there to cut rather than set up my buddy.

Dont get me wrong, I have nothing but praise for my buddy, but I think it works best set up for 24 or 48 x 48.

I do wish the machine at work was Shopbot though. My little buddy has such a better interface than the beast, so if it fits on mine I do it at home.

good luck
Chris

[jerry_stanek]

[QUOTE=
I do wish the machine at work was Shopbot though. My little buddy has such a better interface than the beast, so if it fits on mine I do it at home.

good luck
Chris[/QUOTE]


I agree I run a Biesse at work and take stuff home to run on my 48x96. I do some jobs that I cut 70 plus sheets of the same pattern and like how easy it is to just slide the sheet on the table against the stops and hit run

[bleeth]

Considering weekends off your goal of cutting 300/mo (20/day) equals an Alpha 4 x 8 unless the actual amount of cutting/sheet is pretty small.
Buddy's are great tools but if you are primarily working with 4 x 8' a full flatbed is the way to go.

[2006prt]

I bought a used prt alpha and it was the best decision I made. Shopbot has been very supportive as well as the people on the forum. It enabled me to get my feet wet with cnc now I use it to cut everything. I use the prt to cut cabinet parts with ecabs and it is amazing. It isnt as flashy as a new prs but it works great. Just my 2 cents. Hope it helps.

[Brian Harnett]

Go full size if you go smaller you will regret it, once you start using it all types of projects will come up, the space it takes up in my shop is less than the machines it replaces.

It is my mortise and tenon machine, dovetail machine, large surface planer doweling jig, among many others I cant think of a machine that pays for its footprint more.

I bought 48x96 prt in 2003 upgraded the controller to prs standard in 2010, well worth it.

The largest limitation on speed is the router one of these days I will get a spindle.

[jTr]

David,

I feel that your budget is unrealistically low if you honestly mean to start a business that revolves around this machine. If you'd like to test the waters with this project, get your toe wet by hiring an existing cab shop - many would love a simple batch like you're talking. Once you're convinced things are working and have had more time to re-align that budget, buy a fresh new machine. You can also use that time in software training.

BUYING A CNC IS NOT A PLUG AND PLAY SCENARIO.
Just ask the guy who recently ran out of patience and was looking for explosive charges, as the axe he was using was too inefficient at disintegrating his brand new machine. (read the thread from a few weeks ago)At your stage of consideration, it is easy to underestimate all the skills needed to get one up and running.

You will be overwhelmed with learning work flow from drawing to vectoring to machine, even when the machine itself is running perfectly. You will have that mechanical curve to deal with as well, or are you experienced with running robots already? Plenty of challenges with a new machine (100-200 hours minimum by the time your table is attached and vaccuum hold down is planned, plotted, cut and plumbed, dust collector plumbed,etc.). I would anticipate sheer chaos with a worn or defective machine. Oh, by the way, there's a customer at the end of this line expecting timely, professional results from you as well...

I'm 9 months into my brand new 9660Alpha with 2.2HP spindle. I spent 3 times your budget and cut way less than you're projecting. Yet, I daily pat myself on the back for this investment and how it has revolutionized my business, and am convinced it is vital in keeping me in this business.

Be Advised: I've read more than once - a used machine is purchased and has some undetected expensive issue to resolve. Always find out why they are selling, and feel confident you are being told the full story (your gut will tell you) AND see it running in person. By the way, the customer is still waiting...

Not trying to discourage you - a shopbot is a wonderful thing, and this team of support that makes up the forum will get you up and running with lots of help. Just be sure you understand what it takes to get a cnc performing all that majic.


RULE #1 DO NOT BUY A CNC TO EXECUTE A JOB YOU ARE CURRENTLY CONTRACTED TO PRODUCE.

Best of luck in your endeavors!

Jeff

[cabnet636]

Jeff has Rule 1 stated well !!

[Summit11]

Thanks for everyones input so far it has been really helpful.

Jeff- budget was never specified, $6-7k was an example of low hour machines in and around my area that I have seen. Obviously in considering a Buddy 48 Alpha with powersticks it implies at least a budget of $14k. Additionally, I am not looking to build a business with a machine, I built the business with the product, I am just looking for a more effecient means of manufacturing it. In the mean time we will continue to use jigs and router and a table saw until I fully understand what my best options would be regarding a Shopbot.

Thanks again for all the responses please continue.

[wardsa]

David, where are you located? I'm in Ann Arbor. Have you run one or seen one run? Let me know if I can help.

[cabnet636]

David, these fellows and many others have been down this road, there is another basic rule and this one is important if it is a tool for producing income,, and all my machines are "Buy your second machine first" go see some machines meet some owners, most all of us at this level are still pretty amazed we got this far and in turn love showing off machines,,, a good way to look at forum help is this, "when we elevate others, we elevate ourselves"

CNC is a good thing,, and this is a good place to learn it !!

[Summit11]

thanks terry, it would be great to see a machine in use, in person. We do lots of work in ann arbor and would appreciate the opportunity to see your operations. thanks, david

[MogulTx]

Often people will wish they had bought a more versatile machine at the outset, rather than "limping in" to the situation.... unfortunately, it is hard to know what constitutes a great feature and what constitutes a waste of $.

Check out the people around you. See who can show you a few tricks. With 30 minutes of familiarization, you will learn far more than you will by banging your head in your own shop or garage for 2 days... ( maybe longer).... Seeing it is a powerful teaching environment...

And then, when you are ready, buy more machine than you think you HAVE to have. If you are right, you will outgrow it far too quickly anyway... Most of us on here have experienced it.

[Ajcoholic]

Thanks for everyones input so far it has been really helpful.

Jeff- budget was never specified, $6-7k was an example of low hour machines in and around my area that I have seen. Obviously in considering a Buddy 48 Alpha with powersticks it implies at least a budget of $14k. Additionally, I am not looking to build a business with a machine, I built the business with the product, I am just looking for a more effecient means of manufacturing it. In the mean time we will continue to use jigs and router and a table saw until I fully understand what my best options would be regarding a Shopbot.

Thanks again for all the responses please continue.

David,
If you are already in the woodworking business, I think you would be far ahead of many, in terms of getting the cnc up and running.

Myself, I had been in business doing custom furniture for nearly 20 years full time, before I bought my Buddy this past January. While I waited for my machine (5 weeks) I purchased Aspire 3.5, and spent nearly 1 to 2 hours nightly, working on various projects (and going through the tutorials). When I got my machine, I immediately started cutting projects I had been working on.

You have to be realistic in terms of what you need to learn, in order to use the machine - but it is not "hard". It just takes a bit of hard work, going through the tuturials and manual, and here on the forum... and understanding what the best way to tackle various types of cuts are.

I was already set up with a shop full of industrial woodworking machinery, so I didnt need (and still dont regret) buying my Buddy. It is perfect for the business I do (custom furniture) and so far, so good.

However, if I were primarily cutting sheet stock - and doing it on the router vs my big slider, etc. - I would say I would have been looking at the 60" by 98" Alpha, with the same 4 HP spindle I have on my buddy.

AJC

[gene]

I would go with a 48x96 or bigger , you can cut smaller on a large table but it gets hard to cut larger on a small table . Have you thought about subbing the work to a shop that has a cnc ?. I am sure that someone would cut for you and even sign a contract that states that he will not cut the product for anyone else except you . Try to find someone who is near you and go watch their machine run.
Also listen to the #1 rule advise .....

[wardsa]

David, Give me a call if you want. 73(four)-994-435(three)

[jerry_stanek]

Considering weekends off your goal of cutting 300/mo (20/day) equals an Alpha 4 x 8 unless the actual amount of cutting/sheet is pretty small.
Buddy's are great tools but if you are primarily working with 4 x 8' a full flatbed is the way to go.


I think your estimate is a little off. 1700 inch of cut per sheet even at 150 IPM is under 12 minutes a sheet so even at 3 sheets an hour that is only 100 hours or a little over 3 weeks and I know even my old PR could cut faster than that.

[Summit11]

David, Give me a call if you want. 73(four)-994-435(three)

Thanks Terry I appreciate your offer and will touch base with you in the New Year. Once again thanks to everyone for the insight, you all have been awesome. I look forward to the opportunity of joining such a great group of people.