Before I buy Probe Question

[AJMag]

I don't yet own a Shopbot, but think it is what I am looking for. I also have not yet talked directly with Shopbot, as I'm looking for input from the other side of the sales counter (not saying they wouldn't be forthcoming and honest, but you understand...)

What I plan on using it for is making grips and the such for things like compound bows and knives, where I want to incorporate designs and patterns into composites and woods that I can't do by hand. Currently I have to have the item in hand to fit what I make by hand. My thought is that the probe should be able to get me a close enough reading of the original grip to have a base outline that will match up without having to have the item in hand. Is this the kind of experience many of you have with the probe?

I've read that it can be hard to clean up the lines and image... I guess depending on the complication of the item being copied? I also want to know if the probe will find the holes in the center areas of the grip to give enough of an indicator of where the holes are to make it accurate, generally 1/4" or less in diameter, but critical in position. And lastly which software might be the best/easiest to move those digitized patterns to for tweeking and addition of 3d patterns to be included. For the most part, all these items are just dome shaped on top with gently curves, so there isn't too much for the probe to find in terms of fine detail. My plan is to be able to get a grip form a customer, for instance a bow grip plate, copy that exact outline and layout to the 3d system, add a touch or two and then cut out a new grip in exotic wood or something like G10 handle material.

Any suggestions....Thoughts.......?
Thanks in advance

[Brady Watson]

Andy,
If you use the smallest stylus at a very tight scanning stepover, you should be OK. The SB probe is a great for 'objects of a certain size'. It should be noted that if you buy the probe, you will want to upgrade your software to Aspire, so that you can edit the scanned data and smooth out the rough spots. You can also do advanced toolpathing, where you can program 2D and 3D operations from within the same program. You cannot do this in PartWorks as easily as Aspire.

You can toolpath 3D in PartWorks3D, then import those toolpaths into PartWorks2D and then do 2D operations. You cannot however, edit the 3D data you got from the probe in either program - and you WILL want to edit the data from the probe. This can only be done in a program like Aspire.

If you probe your grips and are not getting the results you require, feel free to contact me off list. I have laser scanned all kinds of grips over the years, from guns and bows to knives and other applications. After I scan a set, holes are accurately located and the position is recorded. Then they are filled in and blended to the surrounding area, like "digital putty", to speed up 3D cutting. The holes are then created on the CNC using 2D toolpaths for a fast machining time and nice sharp features. I'm actually working on two sets of knife grips right now :)

-B

[AJMag]

Thanks Brady, I guess I would have to get into the programs before I completely understand the process of the "digital putty" part. I'd be curious about how you can fill in the holes then find them again later, in the exact spot I need them. I assume it's still possible to cut the hole in 2d and still incorporate a flat bevel of a slightly larger hole for the screw head to fit in?

From all the reading and research I've been doing I really think a Desktop model is exactly what I'm looking for. I've still got a few things to finish up before proceeding with this plan, but I think I see an improvement in my little side business about to happen. I'm feeling the excitement. Thanks for the tips.

[Brady Watson]

Andy,
Check out Vectric Aspire (http://www.vectric.com/products/aspire.html), especially their interactive sculpting (http://www.vectric.com/products/aspire/features.htm#interactivesculpting) tools. Be sure to buy it through ShopBot when you order your tool since it will be cheaper than retail.

The probe should work very well on the Desktop ~ even better than a full sized tool. You'll still want Aspire to clean things up & to give greater toolpath control. Give yourself plenty of time to learn the software, hone your drawing skills and to get your feet wet running a CNC.

This is not the easiest project for a total beginner, so don't expect to be cutting grips your first week unless someone sets up the files for you, or you attend a training class. A SB tech could train you to do it well in a day or 2 at your shop, but plan on it taking a little longer on your own. I would recommend checking out SB's web classes, and think about attending a training seminar @ SBHQ in Durham if you want to be successful quickly. It would also be a good idea to find someone in your area of TX that could be your mentor until you get going.

-B

[AJMag]

I've been watching some tutorial videos on Aspire and checking into it. A lot of it seems remarkably similar to a digitizing program I learned to use a while back to digitize pictures for my sisters embroidery business, minus the 3d.

I fully intend on there being a learning curve, and do plan on starting with easier projects to get familiar, and hopefully the things I have in mind will also be appealing to some in my contact list to help offset the cost of the machine.

Getting training other than webinars would be tricky since I'm going back to college while holding down a job. My BIL will be a help with the mechanical engineer background. But anything I learn, even at a slow pave, will help save time over my current process, so it's all positive. It's a side gig, so I can be patient, to a point. I'm not trying to quite my day job and dive straight in. As long as I can begin to offset cost within a few months, I'll consider myself doing OK.
Thanks again

[myxpykalix]

you also need to keep in mind that depending on the settings you use to probe a 3d part you will be tying up your machine for 20+ hours or more. Some way less. While it is probing you cannot do anything else.

you may want to look into a separate small scanner. Or get Brady to scan something till you can afford a scanner of your own.:D

[Brady Watson]

...get Brady to scan something till you can afford a scanner of your own...

Many customers do exactly that, or pay me to get them going a few times before they learn how to do it on their own. It's win-win for everyone.

-B

[AJMag]

It may very well be worth it to have things scanned for me, who knows. If things start to look up and it makes me enough income to justify buying a scanner then I'll consider it. At the moment my vision is to only have to scan a particular grip once, then modify designs/patterns into from then on. But there are a whole lot of things out there that take the kinds of grips I'm thinking of.

What kind of investment does it take to secure a scanner that isn't too over the top for a small part size, start up business like this? But still a quality product.

I assume though, that probing is something I can set it up to do and leave? Or is there a reason to hang close to the machine will probing? Being a side venture, it wouldn't be slowing me down to have it probing while I'm at school or studying... or possibly while I'm on shift.

[Brady Watson]

Start with the probe & see where it takes you, or farm out the scanning so all you have to do is pull in the data and cut. Even the cheapest laser scanners cost around $3k, and their results are lame. It is far cheaper in the long run to have someone who has been digitizing 3D for 10yrs do your files for you, than to do it all in house yourself...but like I said, start with the probe first and see where it takes you.

-B

[AJMag]

I plan on it, just didn't want to waste time researching into a piece of equipment I don't intend to buy. I figured they'd be a pretty sizable investment for quality, so that's not a justifiable approach. At least not at this point in the game. I appreciate all the advice. If you think of any other good tips or things to watch out for... I'm all ears.. or, uh.. eyes. Thanks

[myxpykalix]

You could also do a google search for gun handles models. There are tons out there free and pay and you could get them and alter them to suit your needs.

[AJMag]

Just thought I'd update you guys..... I dropped the hammer last Thursday. Desktop model with spindle, probe, and aspire with the wildlife scene bundle. Got a lot of things in mind geared around the outdoors and a sportsman's life. I appreciate the advice y'all had given me, and I'll probably be asking for lots more in the very near future. Brady, I may have to also take you up on the scanning service here soon. I'll be in touch looking for info.

[wayne fussell]

Andy,
I too thought that probing would be the way to go. Found out really fast or slow, depending on how your looking at it, that probing a part takes a very long time.
Example, One part i probed was 2.5" wide and about 13" long and it took well over 16 hours.
I have since felt the force and Brady's laser scanning service. Top notch and the only way to go, at least for me.

[tlempicke]

The few paltry dollars that you spend getting Brady to do scans for you will come back many times in saved time and frustration.

Notice that many (Most) of the posts tell you to buy Aspire. When you get the machine from SB they will cut you a good deal on Aspire. In fact they will do that even after you have bought.

Here is how I would start doing a gun grip

Take the old grip and put it on a scanner just like the one you have attached to your computer.

Scan it and save it to a BMP if you can, but pretty much any file size works

Open Aspire and enter the specs or your wood blank. Personally I would have zero X andY in the center of the work

Bring it in to aspire as an image

Use the trace function to get the outline

Once you have the outline locate the holes and place them. Remember that you can move them a couple of thousandths whenever you need to.

Copy the holes and outline to a new layer.

GO NUTS! What do you want - Cowboys and Indians? Faces, an extended middle finger, lettering, eagles, maybe the grillwork from a car. If you can think it up, you can carve it.

Material cost isn't going to be a big thing on a handgrip so get it as good as you can and test carve it. If it is a bit too big, literally three mouse licks will make it smaller.

The one thing I wouldn't do is try to make the screw holes. Holes are never truly round, but rather a set of moves strung together to make a hole. Put a "pit" where the hole should be and use a drill press to drill an undersize hole and then ream it properly to size.

[jerry_stanek]

I would talk to Shopbot and see if I could drop the probe and maybe get the starter bit and some other bits.

[AJMag]

I appreciate the inputs. We'll see how things start to go once I get familiar with the tool. I had previously thought about what might be easier, as far as making holes in grips, and cutting the small notches on the back side, and I'm fine with having to drill those with a press. I've already got a decent jig made from making them by hand.

As far as dropping the probe, I'm going to roll with it find out for myself how it works. It's not that much compared to the whole cost I just forked over, and maybe it'll come in handy, who knows...