Floor coating...

[harryball]

I want to put a gloss black epoxy finish on my concrete floor, something that won't peel up. Any brand/product suggestions of stuff you've tried both good and what to avoid? Should I go with 1 part or 2 part system etc... experiences?

EDIT: and photos if you got'em.

/RB

[steve_g]

Many years ago... we found we got a good bond to concrete by heavily cleaning and etching the floor. We used to scrub the concrete with Tri-Sodium-Phosphate and etch with Muriatic acid. This procedure assured no peeling. This procedure is especially important if any oil has been spilled on the floor or if the concrete finisher got a highly polished surface.

SG

[jerry_stanek]

Also if the floor had been sealed you will need to remove the sealer.

[billp]

Maybe you could just use epoxy and tint it as I did in this picture...Of course here I used graphite powder which is obviously NOT the right choice for your application, but there should be some pigment that you could use to get a similar effect without the lubricity...

[dlcw]

Bill, that looks like a rudder for a boat.

[Brady Watson]

This should give you some ideas too: http://www.epoxy.com/

-B

[billp]

Don,
Close! It's a center board for a boat...

[gerryv]

Quite a number of years ago, I was responsible for designing and building training centres for NAPA. We decided to put an epoxy finish on the concrete floor in the first one. Beautiful but a BAD choice. Trouble was, these workshop areas get water on the floor. They became so slippery and dangerous when wet that we had to put on another coat with grit in it. Then it was next to impossible to clean! The next one didn't have epoxy floors. Maybe the technology has improved in the last 15-20 years.

[danhamm]

I havent used there concret epoxy, but used there crystal sheen and epoxy glue..like there stuff.

http://www.fibertek.ca/epoxy.htm

[bleeth]

There are lots of durable concrete coatings that work. All of them have an issue of slipperiness when you are talking about ending up with a solid color as it takes a couple of coats to get it properly covered. The answer, fortunately, is actually quite simple. You have to add non skid to it. This is basically very fine sand and when using it you need to keep your medium (epoxy) stirred up so it ends up even. The downside of non skid is fine sawdust doesn't sweep up as easily and you will be going through push brooms more often than a smooth floor.
Another solution may be to use a "black" concrete stain. It will be somewhat transparent, but won't be nearly as slippery as a translucent epoxy coating without non-skid.
Here's an out of the borders thought: Get black VCT.

[Xray]

Stay away from the home depot garage kits, consult an epoxy dealer for best product for your application.
All epoxy is 2 part, a resin and activator - 3, if you are adding color base. The most important part is the floor prep. You need to get it down to bare concrete, not just profiled. Not as daunting a task as might first sound, but you will need some specialty tools that you may or may not have offhand.
For garage floors, an 8 or 10" right angle grinder with a diamond grinding wheel is mandatory. They also have dust shrouds for the grinder which allow you to hook up a vac, you'd want one of those as well.
With this setup, you can strip an average 20x20 garage floor in a couple of hours.
Floors with heavy coats and/or contaminated with oils, you might have to have a small shot blaster ,,, But a machine like that is out of reach for most folks, so hopefully, your floor is not too badly trashed.
If it has no coat, still needs to be profiled with the diamond wheel. You got to knock off the "shine" on the concrete, and remove any grime or contamination. Skimping out on this process will result in a peeling floor within months, or even days. Also can get "out casting" and/or "fisheyes", which are obnoxious epoxy bubbles and dimples popping up all over, and a sign that contaminants were left in the floor. Doing a good prep will ensure a proper bond, and once a quality epoxy has that bond, it doesn't let go.

You need 2 coats of epoxy, unless a sealer coat is used, as it will soak in to the freshly profiled concrete. Foot traffic on 1st coat depends on temp & mix, can be in the 6 to 14 hr range.

From there, you'll need a couple of 5 gallon buckets, 8 or 10" roller with stick, spiked shoes, chip brush, a squeegee, power drill with mixing wand, rags, some solvent for cleanup [xylene or acetone], and thats about it.

If you have cracks/small holes that need to be filled, you can create some crack patch with the epoxy by mixing it with some cabisol. This is an extremely light weight, fluffy and highly carcinogenic powder, not easy to come by in small amounts. Not much else you can use to patch, epoxy will eat most anything except that, including most "paintable" caulks. You could create an epoxy slurry with sand and slop it in the cracks, but that would not be nearly as smooth looking as a cabisol mix, you can literally not tell a crack was there if done right.

Options for the floor, besides color, are topcoat, non skid and flaking.
Very light non skid recommend, too heavy and it will be very hard to clean, and can also tear up your shoes. None at all, and it can get slippery. The skid does wear out eventually, I've had mine in the garage for over 10 years and some still remains.
Flaking is just a visual accent to break up the monotony of a solid floor, well worth the price. I did my floor "white night grey" with black & white vinyl chips. Some people don't topcoat, I'd recommend you do. The clear urethane coat is a protectant to the epoxy, probably adds a few years to the floor [gives you one heck of a buzz too, make sure you got good ventilation or you'll see walls breathing within minutes].
The 1st coat is poured out, squeegeed, and rolled as is, with the chip brush used as necessary for edges or obstructions the roller can't handle. 2nd coat I usually pour, squeegee, roll then add the non skid, roll again, then add the flake. [With the quick set time of some of this stuff, really helps to have someone to help]. After the urethane top coat is dry, you are now ready to move your stuff back in, and have an attractive, protective, functional floor which should last a decade or more.
[Just reread your op - Black is uncommon, but possible for sure. I've been on 100's of floors residential/commercial/industrial. Factories, arenas, colleges, parking decks, aircraft hangers and many more. Only black floor[s] I can recall is at Fords, they liked their tool cribs floor black, we did about half a dozen of those at various plants, each one pretty sizable. You can make the epoxy any color you want, just a matter of finding a supplier with black color base, which is uncommon. I'd say 90% of epoxy floors you'll see are a hue variation of grey. Flaking still possible with black, I'd say a rust red/off white combo would look nice, yellow can be mixed in in smaller amounts if you want it to pop. The "gloss" would come more from the urethane top coat than the actual epoxy].

I have done epoxy floors on the side for years with a buddy that owns a company, everything from garage floors and smaller to 250,000+ sq ft industrial jobs.
Cost of the average garage, depending on floor condition and options, is around $800 to $1,200 with a 3 year guarantee, not a bad price considering the labor and cost of materials, and specialty tools required to do it right the 1st time. Don't get me wrong, you can DIY no problem if you are meticulous and don't mind doing some grunt work. Just buy quality materials, and DO NOT skimp on the prep.

This guy is a buddy of mine, literally breathes epoxy. Some good info on his site, I believe he also sells epoxy garage kits
http://www.performancefloor.com/

http://www.camheads.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=1939&d=1305509429

[donek]

I'd avoid any sort of gloss or highly smooth surface in your shop, particularly if you have employees. We have sections of the floor in our shop (uncoated) that have become very smooth and slick. Nobody has actually fallen, but many of us have come very close. There are some ares that we have painted with a grippy paint (has sand in it) and still others we have applied grip tape to. Every time I almost land on my back I kick myself for paying the guy with the power float. I'd prefer a little more difficulty sweeping the floor to one of my guys going to the hospital because the floor is too slick. Even worse would be a visitor getting hurt. Keep it safe. just a small amount of dust on that painted floor and you'll have an ice skating rink. Trust me, I've done the thing of seeing how far I can skate/slide across the floor before we made it grippy.

[Ed Scherer]

Good advice from Doug (Xray) above.

FWIW, we had our garage floor done professionally with epoxy more than six years ago; it was the one part of our "garage improvement project (http://www.ed.scherer.name/5018Arapahoe/Projects/Garage/index.html)" that I elected not to do myself. It looks almost identical today to then; virtually no visible wear at all. If you follow that link, around the middle of the page, you'll see a few photos of the installation in progress; this includes many of the steps that Doug (Xray) mentioned. I think we struck the right compromise between scrubability and non-skiddiness. Went with a low-key look.

It's easy to keep clean (blow out the big stuff and then sponge mop). I just try to clean it often enough—rarely more than once a month unless it gets gritty winter crud on it—to keep it looking nice and grit-free.

http://www.ed.scherer.name/5018Arapahoe/Projects/Garage/medium/IMG_1370.jpg

[Xray]

Wow, nice shop and great looking floor Ed, and quite a photo set. Just the opposite of me, I didn't even take 1. I guess I've seen more than enough on jobs, didn't think mine was anything special enough to take pics, but I wish I did.
Course, I still can, garage is a little crowded at the moment.

Looks like they used a walk behind scarifier for majority of prep, which is acceptable with the right kind of teeth, which they obviously must have had. Also looks to be a broadcast floor [saturated with blown sand]. Not common for garages, but certainly an option ,, No need for non skid with that ! When we do parking decks they are usually broadcast, we go through pallets of sand. Can't tell if it was urethaned or not, I'm guessing yes.

Probably did the right thing by going pro, few novices will get a floor that good, unless they really, really do their homework first, invest in the right tools and material, and preferably have someone with experience doing them to give them tips.

[harryball]

Thanks for all the feedback. I've been doing a lot of reading and research. I settled on a stain with the color black granite. I'll update everyone on the brand, what I did etc... once I get delivery. Running me about $600 for enough to do the 1200sqft and it is suppose to be industrial stuff with a top coat that should give me a good semi-gloss finish.

One issue I have that I didn't reveal in the op was the uncertainty of a vapor barrier. If you see my YouTube videos about the shop floor you'll see we did an over pour. Well, I have no idea but I doubt a vapor barrier was installed under the original slab. The expoy dealer I spoke with said that could be a problem in the long run with an epoxy product causing it to flake.

Reading this thread turned me on to the staining idea. I'll be sure to update and post videos of the process and results.

Thanks!

/RB

[Michaelodunk]

I would never paint a floor the following reasons.

Every bit of dirt will show. It will never look clean.

It will soak up all the light in the shop

You were thinking high gloss I think that would be to slippery (mentioned before
I'm just agreeing.:)

[Xray]

I don't think grime will be an issue with black any more than any other color ,, Will sure hide the dark grime much better.
Black is a very uncommon paint choice for another reason - It is considered psychologically depressing to be in a room with black painted surfaces, I doubt if you could find an interior decorator who would recommend it. The very few that I have done out of 100's I thought looked great, was probably impressed because they are so unique.
But its your floor, and you can zebra stripe or polka dot it if you wanted to ,,, Just watch out for the shop rage !

[harryball]

I like black, I don't find it depressing at all.
I backed away from the gloss finish to a different type that is not an epoxy or topcoat. It should be like the polished concrete at the home depot when I get done, just a nice black granite underneath. With the stark white walls and either white or wood ceiling it should be interesting.

The materials arrived today, gotta wait for some warmer weather, but I'll be sure to let you guys see how it goes.

/RB

[pkirby]

I like black, I don't find it depressing at all.


Of course you do... you're the bat man:D

[Xray]

I like black, I don't find it depressing at all.
I backed away from the gloss finish to a different type that is not an epoxy or topcoat. It should be like the polished concrete at the home depot when I get done, just a nice black granite underneath. With the stark white walls and either white or wood ceiling it should be interesting.

The materials arrived today, gotta wait for some warmer weather, but I'll be sure to let you guys see how it goes.

/RB

Not sure what you got going from what you've been saying, but I wish you the best of luck whatever it is.
[Home depots floor are simply sealed concrete with a urethane coat].

I don't know if its a fact that large black painted surfaces can cause depression or not, but I do know that folks who do clinical studies of how things in our environment affect our moods, often subliminal, say it does. I think the line of reasoning is black is generally equated with darkness, and darkness with gloom.
Offhand, I'd say if one is depressed in the 1st place, whether your floor is pink or black isn't going to have much of a bearing. Conversely, if you aren't, then I don't think it would make you so.

[jerry_stanek]

Pink has a calming effect for the first couple hours that changes to a violent effect if you are subjected to it to long. We did a few drug stores with pink walls and we had to change them pretty quick.

[Xray]

No experience with pink walls, but red is well known as the color of anger,,, So I suppose that pink, being just a weak red, would be similar but more subtle.
Pretty rare to find any public place that will experiment with any colors outside of the standard grey/white/tan.
Would be interesting to stick a guy in a room with a black floor, pink walls and red ceiling for a week, probably would need a rubber room after that.

[harryball]

Not sure what you got going from what you've been saying, but I wish you the best of luck whatever it is.
[Home depots floor are simply sealed concrete with a urethane coat].

I don't know if its a fact that large black painted surfaces can cause depression or not, but I do know that folks who do clinical studies of how things in our environment affect our moods, often subliminal, say it does. I think the line of reasoning is black is generally equated with darkness, and darkness with gloom.
Offhand, I'd say if one is depressed in the 1st place, whether your floor is pink or black isn't going to have much of a bearing. Conversely, if you aren't, then I don't think it would make you so.

I like the darkness too. I prefer walking at night without a flashlight as my night vision is pretty good (so far). I prefer black guns, my truck is black, I like black phones, my computers are black. Always have.

I'll be sure to hide all the sharp things when people come visit so they don't fall into a well of depression and try to harm themselves when they see the black floor.

According to statistics, 80% of statistics are made up on the spot to support a point of view... I made that up.

/RB

[jerry_stanek]

When I worked for the drug store they would hire a company to come up with things to keep the customer in the store and shop. We had angled aisles so the customer would see more product.

[Xray]

I like the darkness too. I prefer walking at night without a flashlight as my night vision is pretty good (so far). I prefer black guns, my truck is black, I like black phones, my computers are black. Always have.

I'll be sure to hide all the sharp things when people come visit so they don't fall into a well of depression and try to harm themselves when they see the black floor.

According to statistics, 80% of statistics are made up on the spot to support a point of view... I made that up.

/RB

Not exactly a stat, and certainly not a point of view. The subliminal affects that different colors have on our moods have been studied and pretty well defined for quite some time. I remember most of what I have said about this from high school studies 25 + years ago.
Not a science and not entirely predictable, there will always be alot of variables when dealing with human psychology. One striking example that cannot easily be denied is that suicide rates in northern lands that get little to no sun are 5x or more the rate where the sun does shine ,,, And when the sun does shine there, the rates drop to average. The logical conclusion is that people are more depressed in dark gloom.

Not trying to talk you out of a black floor by any stretch. Like I said, you could polka dot it and that would be Ok by me ,, And, being a biker with quite a few black leathers and a black Harley, its not like I'm on a mission against black.
There is a reason why people almost never paint surfaces black, and that is it. It is perceived as gloomy, and people for ages have wanted to make their surroundings vibrant, or neutral at least.

[harryball]

I find black exciting and stimulating, subliminally to me it says "you're bat man!" :D

I've an associates in Engineering Psychology (no seriously, I'm a Computer and Electrical Engineer too, I have papers from GaTech and everything :eek: ), I know exactly what you're talking about, just having a bit of fun. It's also interesting to note that response times to blue are faster than red... so why aren't taillights blue? Because red is more easily distinguished and requires less change in intensity before it can be detected. Funny thing is, when tail lights were originally made red nobody knew this from any study.

I think everyone will survive my black floor, my walls will be white enough to offset the depressive floor... just don't lay down. :)

/RB

[mtylerfl]

RB,

I finished my garage workshop floors in grey-blue epoxy with the multi-colored flecks just over 10 years ago (three $60 kits from a big box store). Now starting to show signs of needing a re-do (traffic areas where I scuffle my feet from depression caused by the grey-blue color...or is it the flecks causing that?). I might do the floors in black this time. I want to have as much fun as you are!!

(this thread was hilarious - made my day!):)

[Xray]

I would think the study of color psychology predates brake lights as well.
Halt/Stop/Danger signs have always been done in red & white because it is visually striking, grabs attention. Seems logical then that brake lights would follow suit.

I like black as an accent ,, My room is much like a weird museum, and most of the things in it are toned down. I bought a new computer monitor a few years back, got a great deal on it but the only one they had was framed white.
Stuck out like a purple zit in my room, and it bugged me so much that I took the monitor apart and painted the frame a nice flat classic black, and then it fit right into my decor.
Another time I spent 3 months in New Orleans working on a job, and me and my buddies rented out an apartment right on lake Pontchartrain. Pretty basic, with all white paint and light grey furniture.
When I finally got back home and went in my room, my eyeballs almost popped from the color variations, it made my head spin and I was amazed. I was so used to the plain vanilla surroundings in NO [actually is was Slidell] that all these colors boggled my mind, and took a while to get used to.
Like I said, most affects from colors are subliminal, its not like we realize they can affect our moods as we go about our day to day business, but they can and do.

Offhand, I would think any possible affects from a black floor would be minimal compared to black walls, or even a ceiling.

[harryball]

Brake light and turn signal colors were officially studied for the first time (to my knowledge) in the late '60's early '70's by several people including the one I remember, Mortimer I believe. Don't know why I remember that. Anyway, like with most studies it reached the conclusion that shear human intuition had already chosen the best colors like you said. We inherently knew what colors were easier to perceive.

Colors must not affect me like they do you or many others, so I'll be good with the black floor. I personally don't like bright or light colored floors, I prefer a dark floor and given the environment I would think people in general would prefer a dark floor. It's not often you encounter white ground or floors in nature short of snow... which probably explains why I feel colder in hospitals with those white tile floors even when the temp is good.

I'm hopeful to get started on this project soon if this rain will ever let up. I'm anxious to get this floor ready so I can study the effects... or would that be affects since it's dealing with emotions? Anyway, I'll be sure to post videos of it.

/RB

[Xray]

Ok RB, if we don't hear back from you in a few months, its safe to assume the floor got the best of you and you are locked in an [all white] rubber room somewhere !

[myxpykalix]

Harry,
Here is a selfsealing rubber compound invented by these three guys that might work good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7P2Dl_M7DY

Although i think you may have some of the same problems they encountered during installation:rolleyes:

[harryball]

Ok RB, if we don't hear back from you in a few months, its safe to assume the floor got the best of you and you are locked in an [all white] rubber room somewhere !


NOW you're getting the idea!