New to CNC/Future Shopbot Owner

[80grit]

I have been wanting a CNC for years. I even recall ordering a Shopbot VHS intro video probably over 10 years ago. I just never had the money and couldn't justify the expense. Now, I am at a point where I am really ready to make a move and get out of this cubicle. There are just a lot of questions that I have about what kind of machine to get, what accessories do I need, how do I get customers, and on and on. I've combed the site for info and learned a few things.

First off, I have over 15 years of part time furniture building and over 10 years experience in CAD. I'd like to try to combine those skills along with a passion to just create things. My current situation would allow me time to learn and transition into possibly using a CNC full time. There are just a lot of questions in my mind.

1. What kind of machine do I buy? The first question back to me would be "What are you going to make?" I really don't know. Since these things are so versatile, I want to be able to make just about anything and maybe I can eventually find my niche. I want to get something I can grow into and will allow me to have the most capabilities for up to $15K.

2. What are some must have accessories?

3. What kind of software? This is really the one where i don't even know where to start.

4. How do you find customers?

5. How do you charge for producing an item? Do you assign your machine and hourly rate, so to speak?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[Rob Gunn]

Andy, I would never clam to be a expert but this is what worked for me.
I wanted to get into a CNC wood router but couldn't justify the $ for a new machine that I wasn't totally sure I could generate $ from. I went used and started out with a older PRT96 that still had plenty of life in it and I was able to pick it up for a fraction of the cost of a new unit. I figured I could always put it back out on the form and get back out of it what I have in it. So far this machine has been able to do everything I have needed, Yes it is slower than a new machine but I'm never in that big of hurry anyway.
For accessories I just started out with a few of the standard bits (V-bit, endmill, ball nose, table surfacer) you can order a starter set from ShopBot and then branch out from there.
For software I have been very happy with Vectric VCarve Pro, this will do any 2D work that you could ever need to do. On rare occasion when I need to do 3D work I use Vector Art 3D models and use there free software to create my tool paths. So far no complaints. Someday I may find the need for the more expensive 3D Asiper software but not yet. Take a look at there web-sight and download the free trial software.
http://www.vectric.com/
I think you will like what you find. Just so you know, I am not a salesman, I just simply like what I have.
I find customers via my girlfriends sign shop and by word of mouth. I would assume with your background that you would have a good possible customer base to start with.
I charge $ by sq foot for a start and then add what I call "difficulty tax" to compensate for the problem projects that have issues above the simple work. This may sound a little unfair but I figure its my time and if a customer doesn't like the price I give then he can always go somewhere else.:eek: Please understand that I do this work as a "part timer" I don't make a living from it so I can pass on the problem jobs.:) good luck and keep us informed with your progress. By the way, you will find the guys on this form to be the most honest and helpful bunch that you could ever ask for. I have appreciated all the members of this form from day one.

[dana_swift]

Andy- my suggestion is use your experience with furniture building guide you as to your needs. Are you usually cutting hardwood boards, or sheets of plywood? If its boards, a buddy may be just right. If its plywood sheets or some similar material a gantry system would be a better choice.

My suggestion is to buy the biggest machine you have room for. A 48x96 machine is hard to go wrong with. A buddy takes twice as much room as a gantry system to work on the same size material. That is due to the material moving from side to side of the machine during cuts.

If you find later you need something else, used shopbots usually sell quickly without much loss in value. Which is another idea.. if you are not in a huge hurry, keep your eyes out for a used machine. You can get a larger machine for a discounted price with availability now. Shopbots hold up very well, but they do have parts that wear out, get a seasoned hand to accompany you to check out the machine.

For production work the alpha versions of the machines are well worth the extra cost in my opinion. Roughly double the cut speeds.

Then the question of router vs spindle. For production, its hard to go wrong with a spindle because you can cut much deeper with the higher horse power. A spindle rated at 3hp has much more real cutting power than a router rated at 3hp. About 5 times as much. PC has a very misleading way of rating their router HP.

The back side of that is you can replace a lot of routers for the price of one spindle. And you can upgrade later when your cash flow allows it.

Watch the training videos on the SB site and the Vectric site. You can be learning now! And of course.. keep up with the forum!

Hope that helped!

D

[dana_swift]

I forgot to answer the question about must-have accessories. Here are two:

1) Hearing protection. 30db minimum. Two pairs minimum.

2) Safety glasses. Two pairs. You will have guests.

Everything else is an option.

Vacuum hold down is nice, but not required when you are getting started. Dust collection probably follows right after hearing protection and safety glasses. Dust is bad for you, and a fire slows down production considerably.

Skip the starter bit set, and get specific bits for your application.

Skip the probe unless you really need it. And even then, wait to be sure its the best way for your needs.

Indexers are nice if you are making Queen Anne legs or other fancy stuff. Again wait till you see what you need for your market. Fancy stuff like that is not a beginner project. Get started first. Then buy an indexer, all the modern shopbots allow it to be added later.

And how do you find customers-- may be the wrong question. How do your customers find you? Are you advertising?

As to charging- its what the market will bear. You will discover some markets are better than others. You may end up making something very different than your original plan. Sell to several markets if you can. Less likely they will all dry up at once. It can also get very busy and make you work with little sleep at times.

Again- hope that helps..

D

[feinddj]

Buy a Shopbot because you think they are fun and challenging tools. Buy a shopbot to do something that you now do by hand but would like to do it more accurately, more quickly, etc. The best way to find out what you can do and what others do with their shopbots is to find out who is near you and visit them. We Shopbotters are generally friendly and like to show off what we do. Once you get one, you will work overtime thinking up new things to do.

As to what to buy. It depends on your comfort level. Buy a used machine if you are ok with that and don't mind tinkering to make things work. Buy the biggest one you can afford both in terms of space and money. Occasionally I think I could use a small machine to do what I am doing but only in addition to my 5 by 10.

Software is a function of what you want to do. Each Shopbot comes with Partworks which is a stripped version of Aspire. Aspire is relatively cheap, especially considering what the other types of toolpathing softwares go for. But if you only do 2 or 2.5 d parts you don't need it. That said I eagerly await the next Aspire upgrade because its awesome.


Good Luck

David

[myxpykalix]

One of the most versatile and creative options you could buy is an indexer. Whether you buy direct from shopbot or cobble one together yourself it will open up your ability to do round stock, but i don't think you will ever be able to make as cool of stuff as ME! :rolleyes::D lol

[gc3]

silo for creating 3d files, artcam or vectric for toolpaths

[80grit]

Thanks everyone for the useful info.

Dana,

As far as the size of my work, I'd like to have a 48x96. I have the room, and I want to be able to cut full ply or large doors. It just comes down to my budget, and I'm definitely open to a used machine.

As far as how I advertise now, I don't. It's just word of mouth, and that's been good enough to keep me busy doing it part time.


An indexer looks like a nice accessory that I'd like to have. It looks like it opens up another level of cool stuff. It partially answers another one of my questions. I was wondering how you go about making a full 3D part that requires cutting side A, flipping, and cutting side B? How do you reorient the piece so that everything matches up when up flip and start cutting side B?

I guess a solid body guitar with a 3d surface on both sides would be a good example.

[gc3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu8_Aeki6iY&feature=player_detailpage


guitar body tut

[myxpykalix]

Here is a spiral that i made 5 years ago just to give you an idea of one thing you can do on an indexer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSy8PGj2eDU

here is the latest thing done on the indexer, some coffee table legs

to do 2 sided machining, first there are probably some tutorials on the various software sites like vectric you could search. It is a matter of setting up a jig with dowel pins to register your part like in the video Gene references or if your part is not that wide you could put it in your indexer and then just do a 180 degree turn

[80grit]

That's some neat stuff, Jack. I've typically just bought unfinished hardwood legs until now because it takes me so long to make queen Anne legs ( and similar) with standard woodworking shop equipment. I really hate to do that because I felt like it wasn't all MY creation. I just had to do it because I would lose money.


So, without an indexer, the short answer to cutting two sides is "very carefully"? :)


When looking at used machines, what do I need to look at as far as how what year models had certain features, what upgrades would I have to expect, etc? I know these things were made to last, but just like anything else, little improvements and changes are made over time that could make a big difference.

[dana_swift]

Andy- cutting both sides is an intermediate-skill-level shopbot trick. With most projects you can cut a through hole or two just outside the "keep" material, and have it secured to the work with tabs. Those holes are the registration points for the top and bottom.

Elsewhere on the forum I have written up how to use copper sweat fittings to have the SB find the centers of these registration holes to 0.001.

As to buying a used shopbot, the exact model is not a big issue, later models are stiffer which offer slightly better precision, but SB never made junk.

Bearing wear in the spindles, add brush wear on routers, with backlash and gear wear are the primary issues in the motion system.

In the fine points I would inspect for wear and chafing on the cabling, signs that the stepper. Off-brand spindles, and other add-ons would make me very leery. If the configuration was sold by SB, you can expect to get their legendary support on all the components.

You may not have realized it but when you call for help at midnight on a holiday, you get help! Someday you may come to appreciate that as much as the other owners do now.

And yes SB is always improving their products. New machines have their latest knowledge, and future machines will be better than current ones. Kind of like the computers that run them.

Avoid paralysis by analysis. Get started.

Hope that helped.

D


That's some neat stuff, Jack. I've typically just bought unfinished hardwood legs until now because it takes me so long to make queen Anne legs ( and similar) with standard woodworking shop equipment. I really hate to do that because I felt like it wasn't all MY creation. I just had to do it because I would lose money.


So, without an indexer, the short answer to cutting two sides is "very carefully"? :)


When looking at used machines, what do I need to look at as far as how what year models had certain features, what upgrades would I have to expect, etc? I know these things were made to last, but just like anything else, little improvements and changes are made over time that could make a big difference.

[Brian Harnett]

You have a good advantage with the cad experience.

I bought mine in 2003 built a steel table they had the build your own option then. I have since upgraded to a PRS controller.

Your right on the versatility I have made all kinds of stuff over the years My latest was a scale model of a domed ceiling so the painters could figure out how to lay out a mosaic pattern.

Primarily I use it for furniture and signs.

I find customers from a few contractors I have worked with, they recommend my work and it has slowly grown, I also do art shows showing my other work chainsaw carving along with furniture.

Just as a furniture tool it will pay off I make my tenons and mortises all on the bot quickly and efficiently, with a pneumatic clamping system.

As for charging I still have issues figuring that one out, I like what I am doing so that helps.