Buddy 220?

[acb]

OK, my 32" Buddy (w. router) is on order and the electrician is dropping by tomorrow.

Is there significant advantage to running the Buddy off 220, or should I just ask for a couple of 110 circuits?

[Gary Campbell]

Art...
There should be some documentation as far as the electrical requirements for your machine. Not being very familiar with the Buddy, I cant advise you beyond the fact that, if you do have the option to wire it for 220V the machine will run cooler and have slightly more power. However, most ShopBots leave the factory with fairly rigid electrical specs, ShopBot should be able to give you the requirements for yours.
Gary

[acb]

Well, the specs say "110 volt (12 amp); or 220 volt (6 amp) [Single phase, 50-60Hz]." Not sure exactly how that option is implemented on the Buddy, whether I get to wire the appropriate plug or what, but that's the least of my worries.

The PC router is rated for another 15A (110 only) so I'm gonna be putting in two circuits no matter what. And this is for a home shop; I don't have any other 220 gear and I don't expect to be running the Bot all that heavily.

So my question is pretty subjective, but I guess I'd put it this way: On a scale of zero to five... where zero is "makes no difference at all," and five is "if you don't do it you'll regret it, soon, and for the rest of your life"...
how do experienced Shopbotters feel about running their Bots on 220 versus 110 VAC?

[myxpykalix]

I run mine on 220 it takes less electricity to run 220 than 110 however i can't give you the technical specs on why.
I have a 20" thickness planer, 8" jointer, 18" bandsaw, and the bot all are 220.

220 is nothing more than 2 110 lines combined.

[ed_lang]

Art,
Call ShopBot and ask the folks who make the machine. They will know best.

[road_king]

ART,
I am planning on purchasing a Shopbot Buddy SOON. I found the electrical requirements on the SHOPBOT web homepage. Try going to the homepage then click on "products" on the top. The "Electrical Requirements" will appear on the left side of the web page. I printed the doc and will give to my electrician. Hope this helps.

[blackhawk]

Art - I would definitely go for the 220 volt hook up. The big thing is that you will cut your amperage pull in half through your feed wiring. This is much safer in terms of fire safety. Less amperage equals less heat in the wires. It also helps on voltage drop if you have a long wiring run.

[dana_swift]

Art and all-

The SB-32 I have is wired internally as two 110v circuits with a single contactor and TPST main switch. The clear intention is to use a 220v circuit, but since there is no power savings whatsoever because it is in fact two 110v circuits. The stepper motor drivers can take a lot of power if the gantry is pushing close to stall forces, so the double feed is a real requirement.

I strongly suggest you use standard 220v to the bot, then wire your router to the contactor inside the control box so the bot control software can start and stop the router automatically. The stopping the router automatically when a fault is detected can prevent damaging things.

The 110v router will get its 110 volts off the 220 circuit supplied to the bot control box. At first this is all confusing, but it will make more sense when your bot is delivered and you can see how it is set up.

For what its worth, I plug my 220volt wired bot into a 220v 30Amp welder plug. Then I can unplug it and move it like any other tool. I recommend you have your electrician just wire up a 30A 220v welding circuit (4 wire is safer). Then make a power cable for your bot with 10/4 stranded cable (not cheap.. but worth it) and wire it to a mating male plug. Then any time you want to guarantee the bot is safe you can just unplug it.

To connect the router to the bot control box, I cut a 12ga extension cord in half and wired the female end to the router control contactor. Then I just plug in the PC router "like normal". Since I have had to change my router already, that really made it easy.

FYI my (high pressure low volume) vacuum system (two pumps) operates off a separate pair of 20A 110 volt circuits, but it doesn't need to shut off automatically in emergencies, instead I prefer it to stay running so my part stays in setup so it might be possible to restart-the cuts after making appropriate corrections to whatever went wrong.

Likewise dust collection is on a separate circuit that can keep running when the router shuts off.

Art- if you would like photos of any of this, I will happily take some.. You are in for a very pleasant experience, bewildering at first, but worth the trouble!

Hope that helps

D

[dana_swift]

Another thought about the advantages of a real 220 volt circuit...

If you read on these forums you will see that some people have had serious problems with electrical noise.

A unseen advantage of a 220 volt circuit, is it consists of two 110 volt circuits (phases) where the voltage in the two legs is going in the opposite direction at all times. (They are 180 degrees out of phase.)

All electrical circuits create magnetic fields proportional to the flowing current (and cross section area), but having two circuits wired next to each other going in opposite directions tends to cancel out the magnetic field generated. This helps reduce the energy available to crosstalk into places where you don't want it.

If you use two 110v circuits on the same phase, it will work electrically, but you do not get this benefit.

One last benefit of a standard 220v circuit is the double circuit breakers. If one phase faults, both phases get powered off.

And lastly if you use a 208 volt 3 phase power to run the bot off two of the legs, you do not get the benefits! The phases are now 120 degrees apart and the magnetic fields only cancel part way. Better than nothing, but not as good as a standard 220 volt circuit.

Enough physics and electrical engineering for now!

D

[acb]

The quality and enthusiasm of this Forum was a huge factor in my decision to take the plunge (you should pardon the expression!) Thanks to all, with particular props to Dana for all the practical details and to Gerald for pointing me to that document I'd somehow missed.

So, 220 it shall be.

[ed_lang]

Dana,
I would like to see pictures of your vacuum system and masks you use to hold parts. I didn't see an email in your profile or I would have asked via email. You can email me so this topic keeps on track if you like.

[acb]

OK, so I guess I'm an idiot. Had my electrician put in a 220 drop. My BT-32 arrived yesterday, but there was no obvious way to implement the 220/110 split inside the control box as we discussed here.

Called ShopBot this morning and spoke to a tech who proudly announced "it's a 110 unit." After a bit of probing I concluded that nothing constructive was going to transpire there. So I asked to be switched over to my sales rep, who informed me that a) "everybody has 110", and b) "you're the first person who's ever asked about that."

She agreed that the website and documentation for the Buddy are weak on this point, but defended it with the time-honored and irrefutable argument that "it's always been that way."

Hard to believe that in the course of a single phone call my ShopBot joy has deteriorated into frustration and disappointment. I'll work around it, of course, but the moment certainly isn't what I'd hoped for.

[myxpykalix]

I can't speak to the BT units but my shopbot is 220. When I ordered my prtalpha my sales guy Scott and I talked about it in detail because most all my other tools are 220.

Did you order it as a 220 unit or just assume they came that way? It seems to me in theory that the Buddy is just a midget version of a alpha, why couldn't it be a 220?

Sounds like you need to adopt your ricky ricardo accent and call them up and say "you got some splainin' to do Lucy"!

[erik_f]

Art,
I can understand your frustration. From time to time I have called Shopbot and been more pissed off than before I called. The 220 line should be able to be converted into a 120 line with a change of a plug and a new breaker. This may or may not conform to your local codes though. Don't let a bad phone conversation ruin things for you. The forum is great and Shopbot is usually pretty helpful (although I have noticed not as much sometimes as they used to be). It seems that SB has shifted its focus somewhat from the back yard mad hatter to the small CNC business. I think in the past it was more understood that the customer was usually working on a shoe string budget and everything was more geared toward the 80/20 rule. 80% of the performance for 20% of the price. I think SB has come a far way with the machines they produce now to what I first bought 5 years ago. I had several problems with my BT48 standard when it first came in. I'm sure that SB gets a lot of calls and spends a lot of time on the phone with customers chasing their own tales because of inexperience, so I suppose I can see their side of things too. Its when I get the "oh well" attitude from someone that I want to shove the Shopbot on a trailer and drive it back to the factory (and I'm not talking about a planned trip, I'm talking about RIGHT NOW!). Use the forum and give back to it. By all rights the forum has very little to do with SB other than it is hosted by the site. The nice thing is everyone is using the same CNC as opposed to a random CNC forum. One other tip. If you are like me and can go from zero to pissed off in no time flat, ready yourself for many more occasions of red faced teeth gnashing. I started out knowing nothing about CNC, CAD or CAM. It really took me about a year before I was comfortable hitting the run file button and being reasonably sure something wasn't going to go wrong. What I have learned about CNC is that even though the idea is set it and forget it...there is actually a very large amount of trial and error when hunting down problems with the machine or working on a new project. The forum is great and gave me a huge head start, with a place I could almost always get an answer, but it still doesn't take the place of actually doing it and seeing what works best in my situation. I know the sinking feeling when the thought pops in your head,"I'm all jammed up here, all this money dumped into this thing, and I have know where to turn." The truth is if you are smart enough to buy a CNC you are smart enough to run one. I had to do quite a bit of work to my Buddy before it was working they way it should have from the factory. There were a couple of times I started feeling I was on the phone with Verizon, which is never a good thing. As my friend Mike says (who used to sell industrial CNC's),"What do you want from an over sized Tonka toy?"

[bill1]

My bench top is also 220 and is also a PRT Alpha
which is going up for sale.

[dana_swift]

Art- If your BT-32 is like mine, 220 is the right choice. Although more than one thing has changed since I bought mine... perhaps this is one of them.

My BT-32 came wired to use 220v as TWO circuits, each 110v. The 220v plus ground IS two 110 volt circuits- just what my BT-32 needed. There are no electrical code issues with using it that way.

A good reason to stay with the 220v circuit is that if either side of it goes into overload, the circuit breaker will shut off BOTH circuits.

If you like I will post a picture of how I hooked my 220 wiring up inside the box so it all works real nice!

D

[frank]

Hi Art,

Your control box is a PRSstandard and some of the advice in this thread is for an alpha. The 220 option for a standard box is for the European market and there wouldn't be any advantage to running your box on 220V. We only ask what voltage to set the box up at if you are located outside of the US or if you are operating a spindle with an alpha box. Give me a call and I'd be happy to answer any questions that you might have regarding power requirements for your control box.

[Gary Campbell]

Dana...
If you check...A 220V circuit is 3 wires..... 2 load and a ground.
To convert to 2 110V circuits you have to add a neutral, not a ground. A properly wired split phase 220V circuit must then have 4 wires, 2 load, a neutral and a ground. The 2 phases carry the load and any imbalance of that load is carried by the neutral. The ground conductor is prohibited from carrying current.

Not looking to bust your chops here over a nitpick terminology item, but wiring so that a ground can be energized is dangerous.
A second reason that a 220V breaker is a double connected unit is to unsure proper phase alignment. Panels are built to insure that adjacent slots are from alternate single phase poles.
Gary

[dubliner]

So, ...If you had a BT Standard with a spindle, it would have 220 for the VFD & 1 x 110 for the controller, 2 separate circuits correct?

[acb]

Thanks Frank... but I'm afraid it's a bit late now. The website says 110/220, and I foolishly assumed that meant it was configurable either way. So now we are where we are... or at least I am where I am.

Of course, I also imagined the control box would be something like that nice metal case mounted on the side of the unit pictured on the website, when in reality it's a repurposed PC enclosure with no mounting. Again, my fault for assuming the Standard was standard.

And while I'm confessing my failings... would it really break the ShopBot bank to provide a proper manual for the BT, with the drawings for a BT, so busy new users don't have to tease information out of a PRT manual that mostly doesn't apply at all?

No, there's nothing here I can't spend my own time solving, but it all seems strangely careless for a company that's turning out such lovely hardware.

[dana_swift]

Gary- You are quite correct. My degree is in EE, so I certainly understand the terms. For what its worth, I actually wired my bot up with a 4 wire circuit, so I have both "neutral" and "ground". I confess to my laziness in mixing the terms trying to simplify it too much.

Electrical wiring gets confusing to most people, and add in three phase delta verses Y.. yikes. That gets hard to explain quick. Fortunately 220v 2 phase is "usually" relatively straightforward.

Its interesting to know that the standard bots are wired for 110v, I do have an alpha and no experience with standard bots.

I have been told that if somebody asks me what time it is, I tell them how to build a watch and the difficulties of keeping track of time. Its usually me that is doing the nitpicking!

Feel free to point out my goofs..

Thanks

D

[Gary Campbell]

Dana...
I have a PRSalpha and the control box is 30A 110V. I feed a 30A 220V thru the contactor for the spindle VFD. It does take some researching to find where this is documented, I wish I could remember.
could you email me at islaww(at)comcast(dot)net? I have a question that is not related to this thread.
Gary

[erik_f]

Art,
Frank is one of the best guys to talk to at Shopbot. He doesn't always have the answers, but he has always taken the time to work with me and given me some useful info, as well as, asking around at SB for the best answer he can find. I really do understand your frustration. It would seem documentation on the site and in the manual could be much better. Maybe this will prompt them to better state the mechanical differences and hardware differences between the standard and alpha models. Shopbot might want to realize there aren't many businesses that function as it does. By that I mean customers making a major purchase site unseen. I didn't make a trip to NC to look at the BT48 before I paid for it. The first time I saw it was at the Roadway dock (that didn't have a ramp or any way to get it off the dock onto my trailer. Part one of me saying WTF Shopbot) by then there was no turning back.

[acb]

Having had some time to think through this all, it seems like the root problem here is the lack of a proper manual for the BT series.

Frank, if you're still around, can you offer any insight on if and when that might happen?

[acb]

OK, nothing from Frank yet, but in email this morning Dianne at ShopBot assured me that "the manual is being worked on as we speak."

However... when I asked if there was any schedule for its publication (not meaning to be rude or pushy, but this is business) the answer was "sorry, but no."

Now, I've got as many when-I-get-around-to-it projects as the next guy... but I also know what happens with them. My experience has been that in business a project without a schedule isn't a serious project.

Obviously I'm hoping to be proven wrong here. ;-)

[erik_f]

I think the Buddy is the new version of SB's every mans CNC. It would seem with all the effort they have put into the powerstick and the addition of a BT48, SB may have stumbled onto a new formula for success. I would guess there will be a lot more info and attention paid to the Buddy.

[kg_in_tx]

ok - so now I'm confused - I was exploring getting a buddy - and dropping in 220 outlets in the garage - do I now not need 220 or? sigh - And since it is nearly September - is the manual done yet?

[dubliner]

If you live in America, & you get a spindle you will need 220 for the spindle & 110 for the controller, if you get a 110 router e.g Porter Cable, you will need 110v for that & 110v for the controller, does that help?

[acb]

The lesson I learned was to be explicit at all times as to whether you're talking about a Standard or an Alpha model, as there are a number of significant differences between them.

For my Standard I wound up making a simple external splitter to let me put my router on one leg of my 220 circuit and the controller on the other. Apparently on the Alphas you can do that inside the controller, but not on the Standards. It is nice to know that if I blow a breaker both the table and the router will go down together... and that I can "safe" the table by throwing a breaker and unplugging my single 220 plug (before the splitter box.)

Then I put my computer on another 110 circuit with some extra surge protection (and a good common ground!), and my dust collection on yet another. You'll be powering a bunch of stuff out there (lights? air filter? fan?) so depending on how your garage is wired now you might want to add an extra 110 circuit or two while you're at it.

As for the manual... there's a new website... www.shopbotbuddy.com.. (http://www.shopbotbuddy.com..). but I haven't heard anything more about fixing the manual situation. Anyone else have any news on that?

[dana_swift]

Karen, If you buy the "standard" version 110 seems to be the requirement, the "alpha" version really wants 220v for the control box.

If you look back at this thread there has been much discussion on this subject. I know when I received my alpha BT-32, it was trivial to wire in the power to the appropriate place. Since I have never seen a standard, I don't know what that involves, but I suspect its really easy too.

My suggestion is install outlets for 220v and 110v, that makes other things possible, such as dust collection, spindles, vacuum systems, welders, etc. Its hard to have too much power available in a shop. When I had the electrician put in my wiring I thought I had a lot of excess receptacles. Now they are all used!

Figure out what you need and make sure you have at least 50% extra, double it if you can!

Since you live in Austin, check out the Makers faire. Unfortunately I have a schedule conflict and I can't make it, but I am sure you will learn a lot and get answers to many questions. Perhaps you could buy a Buddy on the spot and save shipping.

Good luck-

D

[dubliner]

Karen, You live in Austin!!!, well come by I just got a BT 32 today. Its a piece of cake to wire, Neville

[kg_in_tx]

thanks so much - I hadn't heard about the makers faire - is shopbot exhibiting there? I would very seriously look at getting one there if I could save on the shipping! Great suggestion! Neville - I'll be dropping you a line to see if I can some by and see your baby sometime - Thanks so much you are all so very helpful!

[harryball]

Shopbot is exhibiting and is hosting a "Jamboree" the Thursday and Friday before where you can learn many things and perhaps, just maybe if everything works out... get to meet me! Don't let that keep you away though ;-)

They should be posting an official web page with the agenda in a few days.

/RB

[kman]

I have a couple of questions. I'm purchasing the Buddy 32 "Standard" version, as I'm just getting started with this. I've learned through my other business experiences to plan ahead for growth, as much as possible. Would it be feasible (and advisable) to run the wiring for 220 single phase into the room where the Buddy will be? Then, in essence, plug the router/controller into it? And can I then feed off that 220 run to make a couple of 110 outlets for the vac, etc.?

My thought for running/using the 220 initially is that down the road, if things go well, I would probably upgrade to at least a spindle cutter, and possibly upgrade to an "alpha" version. If I put the basic wiring requirements in place now, then I won't have to redo it later.

Is that an appropriate theory, or would I be complicating things by trying to do the 220 wiring now?

Thanks for your help.

[harryball]

I would run at least a 50A subpanel and pull whatever I needed out of it. This gives you the most flexibility for future expansion. You can pull 220 or 110 V out of the panel to proper plugs or direct to equipment. It makes reconfiguring much easier too.

/RB

[dana_swift]

Again I'm with Harry. Kevin, run a LOT of power into the room, you will have to deal with dust collection and perhaps vacuum.

I am often rough cutting pieces on a band saw while the bot is running, so when my BT-32 is running there is simultaneously power going to:

The Router
The Gantry
The clamp on lights I hang around to aid these older eyes (sigh)
The Dust Collection System (almost always)
The Vacuum hold-down system (for some cuts)
and sometimes the Bandsaw.

Add up the amps, that is the minimum you need.

Put in extra, I never seem to have enough receptacles for just plain 110v. 220 is good for heavier things you may need in the future. When I had the 220v wired into my shop I had no idea I was going to buy a shopbot one day. Now I am glad for the extra capacity.

Good luck!

D

[myxpykalix]

There are 2 things we never have enough of in a shop.....clamps and power outlets. I would put as many as i could afford in. Instead of running a 2 plug box, run a 4 plug box. The difference is the cost of the receptacle box and another outlet (usually less than $1.00).