Plywood prices... Quick vent

[harryball]

By now everyone knows about the new duties on imported plywood levied by our helpful government.

Still a shock to see my price go from $27 to $38 on a single sheet of ACX. Unless the supplier if fibbing, that's the new price. I'll be searching around (of course) but I've noticed all prices on ply have gone up. Still no domestic source for ACX is available to me. I call, they'll even quote prices, but can't get it. I would love to buy made in U.S.A.

I also tried again to get 1/2" and 1" Advantech, can't be had from what I can find without going to a distributor (up from the dealer) and then the best offer was to buy a truck load.

Well... I guess I should be thankful I can get anything. But Bat House prices are going up for sure.

/RB

[bleeth]

Yeah: And what's worse is after the American Plywood Mnaufacurers lobbied the government to get that tariff instituted to "level" the playing field, they raised their prices by 5-10 bucks a sheet!

[harryball]

Yep, that's what the supplier told me too. Not sure what the solution is, but I'm pretty sure this is hurting, not helping. The supplier told me his cabinet shops are furious and are already reporting reduced project sizes and cancelled orders. Seems what really happens is people will spend the same amount of cash, for less and "we" get less of that same spend reducing profits.

I don't think it'll have a huge impact for our finished bat houses, but it looks like it's going to push our kit over the $40 mark unless we can drop something or reduce the cost elsewhere.

[jTr]

Ron - Sorry to see what it's doing to your business model. Perhaps on larger ticket items, it will be more easily absorbed, but still stings.

The good news? The cutthroats will suffer the most, and hopefully some will be eliminated, thus "leveling" the playing field in a different way..

Obviously, the domestic suppliers now need to make up all the lobbying money they spent to get this done.

Ultimate question: How will the fed utilize the 20% tariff money? According to the report, over $600,000,000 in Chi Ply comes into port each year = $120,000,000 windfall. Think about it.....

jeff

[coryatjohn]

It may seem harsh to the end user of plywood but you have to remember the reason for the tariff. China is dumping plywood on the US market below cost to crush American manufacturing. What you're paying now is the cost it should be.

Wouldn't you rather support American manufacturing by paying the actual price for the materials? The alternative is a short term gain and a long term loss for the US and every tax payer.

I say it's about time this happened.

[harryball]

It may seem harsh to the end user of plywood but you have to remember the reason for the tariff. China is dumping plywood on the US market below cost to crush American manufacturing. What you're paying now is the cost it should be.

Wouldn't you rather support American manufacturing by paying the actual price for the materials? The alternative is a short term gain and a long term loss for the US and every tax payer.

I say it's about time this happened.


Point 1) http://media.wix.com/ugd//d3efe9_6144c8b453816467ef084940a666cd64.pdf

Point 2) I've tried for years to buy domestic ACX plywood, I can't. I called GP directly, weaseled my way to some VP's phone and had a long discussion with him (about 2 years ago) GP advertises ACX plywood and I was told at the time it was $45 / sheet but unavailable (now I'm being told it's $60, but still unavailable). I repeatedly asked where I could buy it. No where. He told me they only do limited on demand runs and unless a vendor orders truck loads of it they won't run it. Some of the material is cut from trees around where I live. He told me my best option was to buy imported ply. I wouldn't mind paying more IF I could put Made in the U.S.A on it. But I can't.

As for "we are now paying what it should cost" I'm not believing that either. There is too much regulation, taxes and overhead piled on top of everything to be the right price.

[coryatjohn]

Point 1) http://media.wix.com/ugd//d3efe9_6144c8b453816467ef084940a666cd64.pdf

Point 2) I've tried for years to buy domestic ACX plywood, I can't. I called GP directly, weaseled my way to some VP's phone and had a long discussion with him (about 2 years ago) GP advertises ACX plywood and I was told at the time it was $45 / sheet but unavailable (now I'm being told it's $60, but still unavailable). I repeatedly asked where I could buy it. No where. He told me they only do limited on demand runs and unless a vendor orders truck loads of it they won't run it. Some of the material is cut from trees around where I live. He told me my best option was to buy imported ply. I wouldn't mind paying more IF I could put Made in the U.S.A on it. But I can't.

As for "we are now paying what it should cost" I'm not believing that either. There is too much regulation, taxes and overhead piled on top of everything to be the right price.

In your case, it seems unfair as there isn't a made in USA alternative. The tariffs have to be broad to avoid loop holes.

[larry_k]

http://www.defazio.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=796:defazio-backs-oregon-hardwood-plywood-manufacturers-trade-petition-against-china&catid=69:2012-press-releases

[harryball]

Something else I don't get, the ply I get is neither from China or hardwood. Yet I'm told it is being taxed just the same.

[larry_k]

I love the clock on the right corner,It is the il pension clock!

[myxpykalix]

I may be uninformed but it seems like this administration is cutting off more and more timberland to cutting and along with china dumping plywood this is what you get.
The govt gets to preserve the forests plus they get a bounty of more money to squander..it's a Win-Win......FOR THEM!!

They did this 30+ years ago with dumping steel in this country:mad:

[kevin]

You been spoiled on cheap prices of plywood compared to Canada. I'am paying 54 a sheet for Columbia d3 maple plywood

I've been burn buying Chinese thinking its North American used Chinese don't want to put my name on it

I think its great US government is trying to Chinese dumping

[bleeth]

John:

There is no dumping of hardwood plywood just like there is no dumping of electronics that now are virtually 100% overseas origin, plastic goods, steel, textiles, etc. It is simply world market forces at work. The dynamics of world trade are fluid and trying to stop the natural change by tariff has never worked. Frankly, I would rather use plantation import wood composite products and have our tree farms producing higher grade materials. But the reality is our tree plantations are being overwhelmingly used to produce super fast growing species for paper and construction lumber.

[harryball]

Giving this some rational thought (trying to anyway)

Here are some thinking points...

I have no problem with a tariff properly imposed to protect the U.S. economy. But all indications I can find here tell me that in this case, that's not true.

The "dumping" was reported only by the competing industry. There are no 3d party sources cited in the foundation for the claim of "dumping".

The claim is the import of hardwood plywood from China is the target... yet the tariff appears to be across the board, it hit my pine plywood from Brazil.

The U.S. suppliers this tariff is "protecting" don't offer a competing product for many of the tariffed imports. Some may argue that now that it is tariffed it will be more profitable and so they'll start making it. Bull. GP made it clear they were running at 100% and had no room to make anything else, why would you go to the trouble of adding another product line when you can just increase the price on your current product line?

The material I was buying was already fairly priced. It ran about 15% to 20% more than domestic BCX plywood. But it was flat, clean and had no printing all over it. The prices I was quoted for domestic ACX ply were based on no availability. I did find one supplier on the West Coast that could supply it locally for about the same price I was paying here, but couldn't ship it to me economically. There is just no distribution of domestic ACX in the SE. Now with the tariff, my choice is BCX that went up slightly in price (which is garbage, pringles chipped junk) or ACX that is now TWICE the cost of BCX.

So the government ends up taking about 50% of my income already and has added this tariff to raise more money. YEAHHHH... now they can lower income tax right????? I mean, a tariff is a protective tax that can be used to enhance the economy of the country. So... who is this tariff helping exactly? It just puts more money in the governments pocket... OUR MONEY when we are forced to buy the imported material. Yet, with this extra cash... the don't use it to offset our tax burden one dime.


PolyTicks is pretty much looking more and more like organized crime.

/RB

[donclifton]

In 1982 Ron Raegan pass the Harley law doing the same thing tring to keep out Japanese motorcycle. No one told him that the Harley was full of Japanese parts.
Don

[rej]

I bought a john deere to buy American, wrong, it has a 3cyl yanmar motor. the good ole' days are gone. our gov't could care less about us.
my son is a marine, and he has to buy things they use, like boots. ...but we can give bags of cash to overseas dictators?

[stump]

So tariffs are a great way to generate money for the government, make more profits for the protected company, and hurt everyone else who uses the products. They are packaged and sold as a way to protect American business from foreigners, but if the truth were known we would all support free trade.

For example, all 4 of the companies seeking the plywood tariff are privately owned. Why? Because if they were public companies one look at the books would tell you that they weren't being hurt by the competition. 2 of the 4 companies were expanding. Does that sound like a company that is in danger of closing due to competition? No, what happens is that the price of imports increases $10 and they get to increase their prices as well. A $5 increase on a $50 sheet of plywood is huge, a 10% increase in profits! And all it cost was a little bit of lobbying money.

The worst part is that tariffs are almost impossible to get rid of, I know, I work for a magnesium die caster. The US has one Magnesium producer, US Magnesium. They employ about 350 workers. They successfully lobbied for a tariff on all imported magnesium to "save US jobs" from Chinese and Russian dumping. The result was that the rest of the world paid about $1.50 per pound while we here in the US had to pay about $2.30 per pound. This resulted in the loss of over 1,800 US jobs as work left the US and went overseas or south to Mexico. There were 42 magnesium die casters when the tariff went into effect and by 2011 there were only 20 left. Now the really bad part, even when presented with all this information, the tariff was renewed for another 5 years in 2011.

So don't believe what you hear. Think it through, especially the unintended consequences. I still remember when the tariff to protect Harley Davidson was put into effect, and the local Honda motorcycle dealer closed his doors a few years later, putting those people out of work and making a cheap fun motorcycle un-affordable for many of us...

[donclifton]

The problem with Harley wasn't Japanese motorcycles, it was an inferior product when AMF and others were in control. Competition is a good thing for the consumer.
Don

[kevin]

I know this isn't black and white .We where doing a job with oak plywood I was missing 2 sheets to finish the job ran down to the same supplier where I bought the first load. We started cutting 45 degree the smell was toxic I've been working with ply for a few years found out latter they gave us Chinese ply I had no idea.

With North American a least you get a lot number on each sheet grading

Chinese no number no nothing

There should be a level playing field in manufacturing no secrets .Its like buying meat thinking its a cow to find out latter your eating cat

Look at lead paint in kids toys .I don't mean to Chinese bash

[myxpykalix]

There should be a level playing field in manufacturing no secrets .Its like buying meat thinking its a cow to find out latter your eating cat

I've been known to eat my share of pussycat....it tastes like chicken:eek:
especially roadkill!

[kevin]

I know the cat is an extreme example look at Ikea meatball anybody

When we where cutting the Chinese ply I WAS CONCERNED WITH MY HEALTH for the first time in all my years ,It was a sick smell filled a 3500 sq. ft. shop
I realized I had no idea what kind of glue there using or are they using green bamboo for the core ?
What piss me off is selling the ply with no labels

Would you as a home owner want Chinese or North American ply in your home. As business I think it make sense to advertise using North American made ply as selling feature .Remember most North American ply is made with water based glue a green product. Its a series subject

COPYRIGHT 2005 Business News Publishing Co.
Portland, Ore. -- Columbia Forest Products (www.columbiaforestproducts.com) has begun the conversion of all its veneer-core hardwood plywood plants to formaldehyde-free manufacturing processes, using a patented, soy-based adhesive cooperatively developed by Columbia, the College of Forestry at Oregon State University and Hercules Inc. Hercules has awarded Columbia a license to...

Now water based glue

[joe]

Greetings Kevin,

Like you I have no idea what materials are used in most anything. There's a limit what our government can do. And how much we expect it to get involved in our businesses and lives.

I don't even know how much danger there is in breathing HDU dust. My rule now is if it smells wrong don't use it.

Good luck with your business this year.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

[myxpykalix]

Kevin,
It kind of makes that phrase "Made in America" have a nicer ring to it more and more....:D

[dana_swift]

The plywood price is really relevant anywhere there is a disaster, as plywood is the first thing people turn to to make temporary repairs after tornadoes or hurricanes.

Putting a tariff on plywood to raise money for the government on the back of storm victims seems outright immoral. That usually taxes the people who have the least money (and massive sudden unplanned expenses) very heavily. The homeowners and businesses with insurance who can pay the premiums are not directly taxed, but all of us who pay premiums will be paying for the plywood used in emergency prep and recovery. The insurance premium hidden tax goes on forever once in place, even if the tariff is removed.

Storm demand for plywood in Oklahoma has gone up radically since the tornadoes in Shawnee (doesn't make the news, it only killed one or two) and Moore. By the end of the summer it will be Hurricane season.. watch out all of you who live along the gulf and east coast.

D

[danhamm]

We have 2 plywood Mills here in town, and I pay more than you do..they don't sell local its all export to USA and Japan and now China.

[bleeth]

The tariffs were executed prior to the tornadoes. No connection. I agree there is a limit to what our government can (or should) do. Unfortunately, it doesn't often seem like those we elect understand this very well. Instead, they more often seem to simply react in favor of whoever throws the most bucks into their re-election campaigns and the end result is the small businessman gets the shaft. It has gotten way past party affiliations and at this point both teams play to the same conductors.
Dan: Remember when the Japanese bought up all the old growth Sitka Spruce? The mill owners loved it at the time since they were selling more than they ever dreamed. Now it's virtually non-existent and most of the logs that went to Japan are sitting on the bottom of Tokyo Bay.

[danhamm]

Yes, you are correct on the spruce sale to the Japanese timber buyers..
I actually sold some of my large spruce to a coastal buyer, just select trees that was big enough and knotless for musical instruments. the price they paid was fantastic. Was logged in 2 meter lengths exactly.