The Craft

[joe]

The Craft

This is a most honorable way to spend one’s life. For the dedicated there’s no end to growth. When we made our first signs there were lots of questions about layout and design. As time goes along, the beginner gets comfortable with their basics skills and starts to experiment. It’s an intrigue that never comes to an end.

For centuries artist have been working with the same laws and rules, known as the principals of layout and design. Those are the same we are using today. What’s so beautiful about our craft is we get to see out work out on the street knowing we are following the same paths. As I’m moving around my community I get to see my work. That’s one of the reasons it’s a unique business.

We need more dedication and less hobby tinkering.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

[maxheadroom]

'We need more dedication and less hobby tinkering.' Joe Crumley

No Comments? Excellent words Joe. I'd love to see just how many actually make a living, just by their own design and construction of original work.

'What kind of wood is this?' Anyone ever taken a class in wood species, or in today's vernacular, how about a web search? A recent post believes pine, is actually mahogany, and that the wood is 'solid'. Guess it depends on one's definition of 'solid'. After all the first picture - the edge detail - clearly displays 3 layers of 3/4" material - 3x 3/4 =2.25" - .125 through the planer x 2 = 2". Hobby material or material for a 'customers' job?

And are there any buried screws? How many of those $ 2.95 - 5 buck ebay bits will be broken when it hits a screw?

Is false economy still considered, or is that 'old fashioned thinking'?

How about a poll: Who is making a living right now, supporting a family, and paying the bills from the work they do, vs hobbyists? Me: sole support for decades.

'We need more dedication (through education and ones own research..rather than a quick fix on a forum) and less hobby tinkering.'

Times have changed. Some for the good, some not. More and more one hears 'I've got the job, I don't know what bits to use, don't know feed rate/rpm, don't know what materials to use, never done work like this before, need to gold leaf, what glue to use - (it's size), don't confuse me with the facts, just tell me how to do it'. Those will never be a threat to shops that have invested time learning, applying their craft, and learning first hand through trial and error.

Well said Joe.

[steve_g]

Walter...

Very few of us can be a arrogant as Joe... Don't get me wrong, I consider Joe a friend! (Hi Joe!) But he has the arrogance of someone who can afford to tell a customer or anyone else to take a flying leap if you don't want to do it "my way". I'm actually jealous... I want that attitude! I worked by "the sweat of my brow" and my hands for nearly 50 years... That entire time my customer base was built on friends and relatives of previous customers. An arrogant attitude could and did have a ripple effect... That kept me in line.

Officially... I'm retired and back in the hobbyist ranks, but truth be known, once you have been self-employed the fever never quits. Right now I'm working with two start-ups and would drop the "retired" status in a heart beat... If I can just keep the thing "beating"!

Something like 90% of new business is started in someone's garage, by hobbyists who have an idea and are just tinkering around. Based on this... It's my opinion that America needs more hobbyists working in garages and creating American Jobs!

SG

[kevin]

Joe

I know what your trying to say you really have to raise your game get out of your comfort zone.

My plan was simply do high end work push my self and hopefully don't go bankrupt trying.

Joe thanks for your time in posting I get a lot out of it

The outside crest I have to paint on the weekend the outside should I stay white or do something different .Yes its my house

One of goal are to do pubs inside and outside this is a warm-up

[Brian Harnett]

'We need more dedication and less hobby tinkering.' Joe Crumley

No Comments? Excellent words Joe. I'd love to see just how many actually make a living, just by their own design and construction of original work.

'What kind of wood is this?' Anyone ever taken a class in wood species, or in today's vernacular, how about a web search? A recent post believes pine, is actually mahogany, and that the wood is 'solid'. Guess it depends on one's definition of 'solid'. After all the first picture - the edge detail - clearly displays 3 layers of 3/4" material - 3x 3/4 =2.25" - .125 through the planer x 2 = 2". Hobby material or material for a 'customers' job?

And are there any buried screws? How many of those $ 2.95 - 5 buck ebay bits will be broken when it hits a screw?

Is false economy still considered, or is that 'old fashioned thinking'?

How about a poll: Who is making a living right now, supporting a family, and paying the bills from the work they do, vs hobbyists? Me: sole support for decades.

'We need more dedication (through education and ones own research..rather than a quick fix on a forum) and less hobby tinkering.'

Times have changed. Some for the good, some not. More and more one hears 'I've got the job, I don't know what bits to use, don't know feed rate/rpm, don't know what materials to use, never done work like this before, need to gold leaf, what glue to use - (it's size), don't confuse me with the facts, just tell me how to do it'. Those will never be a threat to shops that have invested time learning, applying their craft, and learning first hand through trial and error.

Well said Joe.

Walter, you have been a member of this forum for 3 years yet this is the first post I have seen of yours, have you not gained some information from the posts? I agree a lot are the same I don't know what I am doing stuff but some on this forum take the time to help not critique. Maybe you can contribute more often with your wisdom.

I been making a living for a while on my own some of my living started from hobbies, chainsaw carving is one of them I now make a good income of that "hobby".

Isn't it great there are people willing to go buy a bot that do not have experience, sometimes a fresh set of eyes sees things and improvements that experienced operators don't.

The dumbest question is the one not asked.

[Ajcoholic]

All I'm going to say is this... NO one starts at the "top". No one.

And you can quote me on that!

Many people are out there working there @$$'s off making a living. Most you will never hear from on the Internet. I know several who just can't be bothered to. But they are turning out great work. Every day. And doing just fine financially as well.

Sometimes I read things online that makes me proud and very glad I had a father who was both a master carpenter & woodworker but never once in his life told anyone how good he was, and told me always to let your work speak for itself, period. If you do good work, you don't have to tell anyone. The people who see what you do will.

[danhamm]

The "craft" the bar never stays the same, it just keeps rising..the materials & tools get better, look around you.

[joe]

Have you ever completed a job, proud of what you've done, and come back a couple of years later with maturity, and realize all the mistakes within. And how if you had it to do all over what you'd change.

That's what I call progress. It's that kind of humbling experience that affirms one's growth. It's like doing thumbnail sketches over one's lifetime. And it's frustrating, to me, there's no school or apprenticeship programs for this wonderful craft.

At one time I was hurt by the cruel words during critiques. While the late Aaron Siskind was gentle, for the most part, Arthur Siegel would take you apart. Ending up a with encouraging words like, "you can do better work than this or you wouldn't be here in the first place. Stop being so lazy. Now don't show up with this kind of **** again" These sessions called for dedication by all the students. And you didn't try to put anything over on these guys.

What we all need from time to time is hard, almost cruel, critiques of our work. I know I still yearn for it. But it's for the dedicated.

Joe Crumley

[Brian Harnett]

I have stuff out there that I cringe when I see it, hate to be even associated to it but my best work now is still not as good as some others.

[Ajcoholic]

Have you ever completed a job, proud of what you've done, and come back a couple of years later with maturity, and realize all the mistakes within. And how if you had it to do all over what you'd change.


Joe,
For me, that is each and every pc of furniture I build. Every single pc I do, I learn from and strive to do something just a little better on the next one. That too is something I learned from my father. Believe me, I am my worst critic. My OCD doesn't help matters, I want to redo everything I make, but obviously cannot.

You still cannot start at the top. Any form of crafting something, takes time and a lot of "doing" to get better and better. After 19 years now, doing custom woodwork - I am finally feeling like I know something. Finally... I figure in another 20, I will be not too bad and if I live long enough, by the time I get to my father's age (he will be 83 this year) I will consider myself "good" at it.

[joe]

Andrew,

Now that’s what I’m talking about. I admire fellows like you who spend a lifetime at improvement. For centuries craftsmen have spent their time energy with refinement. No matter what materials the intent is the same. That is the ability to see better, to understand how materials and design come together.

To me, the dedicated beginner is the top of the heap, he’s supreme. In their minds are visions, hopes and dreams. It’s a hard long pull learning how it all works together. It’s not for everyone. There’s no end and you will always end up short of what the imagination can serve.

When the ego is left in the pantry, a hard critique is a blessing. It’s a harsh, humbling and necessary process.

Joe Crumley

[Xray]

I don't think being a "hobbyist" and being "dedicated" and/or having "passion" are by any means mutually exclusive, if I am divining these somewhat cryptic comments correctly.
The bottom line to me is you have to enjoy what you do, if you've got that going for you then the only limit is your imagination, regardless if you are making fistfulls of $$, or are giving things away to friends and family. If you have to force yourself to be creative, if your only goal is to make $$, then I'd much rather be a happy, productive hobbyist tinkering around with 25 designs that fall flat, only to hit a home run with # 26.

[joe]

Doug

Cryptic?

Look, there is a huge hobby class and that's great. We all need a little relief from out busy lives. Good on them.

I'm not in any way wanting to spend time with these folks. It's the fellows who have a family to feed, shoe's to buy for their kids, and provide for their welfare. That's who I'm wanting to assist. They're my hero's.

No one in this business is making gobs of money. That's one miss-understanding. I can tell you aren't part of the sign trade.

Now what kind of work are you doing? Please show us some of your work.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

[joe]

Further Thoughts:

There is a small but important group of sign guys on this forum. There have been many come, find their way, and proceed on with fine businesses. I'm so glad this forum exists for that reason.

There's plenty of good money to be made in the Vinyl Sign business. That kind of business is easy to learn compared to dimensional signs. I'd venture to guess most CNC ers start out with vinyl. And that may continue to be a major part of their income.

I don't have anything against the people who are on retirement or have a 401K and want to mess around. But the hobby class isn't a place I want to assist. For me they are on their own. However that's the lions share of ShopBoters.

Ever so often we get the dedicated sign guy or two, doing their best to make a living, stop by to ask a questions. We also have furniture, cabinet makers, interior decorators and many other businesses needing assistance. What a treat. They often have good information to share. I'm all ears when these guys stop by.

I hope this makes sense. I'm not arrogant, it's the opposite. Over the years I've made sketches galore to help others at no fee. I've also answered hundreds of emails. That's not arrogance, it's dedication. After all how many successful sign artist are reaching out to help others by posting and making sketches? Go figure!

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

[Brian Harnett]

But this is the shopbot forum not a pro sign forum for the serious sign maker, forums are dedicated just to that.

I am not a pro sign maker I make them on occasion and take pride in my workmanship.

I understand where your coming from, but in this forum a lot of users are just starting out, I would hate to make people feel intimidated on asking questions as an amateur.

[steve_g]

Joe
PM sent
SG

[joe]

Brian,

You're dead wrong about this forum. To it's credit we've probably started off more pro sign businesses than any other forum on the market. But the fact remains, it is and will always have hobbiest as the main body. That does not preclude having existing sign businesses to come aboard. Come On! They need help too.

Now about Sign Forums. There are few of these having much CNC interest. I believe I know them all and have participated on them. The 3d Forum has lost almost all the heavy weight artists and it's down to the hobby crowd. Much like Shopbot.

I don't mind hobby guys but time is precious and I'm not able or willing to answer the same old questions again, again, again, and again.

Lets see how many pro's are willing to jump aboard for that.

Joe Crumley

[waynelocke]

I started my studio 33 years ago designing and making furniture. Like Joe it is very fulfilling to see pieces done long ago and to feel proud and to also critique and decide how they have held up. I agree with Joe that the hobbyist and professional are not necessarily two peas from the same pod. It is great when you are in the groove and the spirit moves you but often the spirit is no where to be found, the groove is a gutter and the car payment moves you. The professional has to just fight through it. That is not to say that the work can be any less good but part of the dedication, I think Joe speaks of, is having to work through those times which often yield great breakthroughs. I have never made a piece which I wasn't proud of but the process is not always the most elegant or straightforward.

Part of learning the craft is filling your bag with all of the skills and tricks of your trade but more important is developing the skill and knowledge to know what to use and when to use, not because it is the hardest, flashiest or coolest, but the most appropriate. Filling you hands and mind with all the knowledge lets you intuit with a confidence that I think is hard if not impossible for a hobbyist to acquire.

When I turned sixty a few years ago, I sat down and realized that I was doing the kind and level of work which I aspired to when I was fairly fresh out of college and working in a furniture shop. But the more significant realization was that the work was still interesting, challenging and fulfilling and that I hoped for another 20 years of work because I was just reaching my stride and still learning.

I don't think that Joe was putting down hobbyists — it's just different. It reminds me of the story of Robert Rauschenberg asking Willem de Kooning if he minded people copying his work. de Kooning replied, "No because they can only copy the good ones."

Wayne

[Xray]

Doug

Cryptic?

Look, there is a huge hobby class and that's great. We all need a little relief from out busy lives. Good on them.

I'm not in any way wanting to spend time with these folks. It's the fellows who have a family to feed, shoe's to buy for their kids, and provide for their welfare. That's who I'm wanting to assist. They're my hero's.

No one in this business is making gobs of money. That's one miss-understanding. I can tell you aren't part of the sign trade.

Now what kind of work are you doing? Please show us some of your work.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

I don't think you are under any obligation to assist anyone you don't want to, so I'm not sure what your gripe or point is here.
I have made plenty of signs, but I don't consider myself to be in the sign trade, correct. No one starts out cranking out masterpieces, very few will ever reach your level of expertise. I don't see why you'd want to marginalize or shun anyone for doing what they want to do, seems to me that you can easily avoid "hobbyists" and vice versa if so inclined.
In short, while I appreciate your expertise and level of commitment, I don't see the point of this thread. No one is going to get shamed or cajoled into being a serious sign maker, like any art form, the motivation comes from within.
I am a long time guitar player who often gives lessons to kids and young adults for a little bit of nothing. Also a journeyman union carpenter often passing on my knowledge and experience of industrial construction to apprentices. These people don't have to aspire to be Jimi Hendrix or Michael Angelo for me to help them out, they gather knowledge as they please and it is theirs to do exactly what they want with it.
As I said, IMO what counts the most is that you are happy with what you are doing. As far as my work, I have posted dozens of examples over the years at vectric & cam forums under the nym Xray. Alot of what I do would not be considered forum friendly, and alot I consider average and uninteresting except for the person it was intended for, so I tend to limit what I post to what I think is unique and/or exceptional.

[joe]

Time is precious. I'm here to help those who have businesses.

With your experience and knowledge I know the hobby guys would appreciate your becoming active again.

[gc3]

This is a great thread...thank you Joe for telling it like it is! Ruffled a few feathers :D

[Brian Harnett]

Brian,

You're dead wrong about this forum. To it's credit we've probably started off more pro sign businesses than any other forum on the market. But the fact remains, it is and will always have hobbiest as the main body. That does not preclude having existing sign businesses to come aboard. Come On! They need help too.

Now about Sign Forums. There are few of these having much CNC interest. I believe I know them all and have participated on them. The 3d Forum has lost almost all the heavy weight artists and it's down to the hobby crowd. Much like Shopbot.

I don't mind hobby guys but time is precious and I'm not able or willing to answer the same old questions again, again, again, and again.

Lets see how many pro's are willing to jump aboard for that.

Joe Crumley

I guess I will beat a dead horse, don't post on questions you have answered a million times before.

Its that simple, because they will be asked over and over just like any forum on any other subject.

[gc3]

thing is a couple years ago there were, as Joe says, some serious "heavyweights" involved on several forums. Then the ebay, rockler and diy machine owners took over those forums...with questions that could have easily been answered by simple...simple research. I myself did post the same newbie questions a few times on the same forums. but i quickly learned to figure it out for myself...i live in los cabos mexico and have the only shop with cnc routers...wanna talk about questions on how to run the machine...ha google is your best friend.

Again I want to thank Joe for telling it like it is...

cut my teeth in with these doubled sided entry door panels done on a vintage pr machine 2 yrs or so ago

haven't looked back since... https://www.facebook.com/VectorStudio22

[bob_s]

Joe
Deciding you are going to teach, whether it's formally or in this sort of forum, means that you will face a number of personal decisions.
Do I teach only learned individuals?
Do I try and teach at all levels?
Do I get aggravated by "dumb" questions?
Do I come and go from the venue as it suits my mood and schedule?

Those are all yours to decide, but to intimidate those that come here looking for an answer or just some more general knowledge isn't right.
I know you have tried to be a leader in this area, but not everyone has the drive, education, or time to be a sign "pro". I think the giving spirit of this board is what attracted me to Shopbot and CNC in general and I firmly believe it should stay that way.
Bob

[rej]

I wanted to stay silent on this - but I can't.

I think this entire thread is dead wrong, and puts down many shopbotters.
I know for a fact that not everyone on here putting down others even owns a shopbot. ( not you gene, I know you own one) I think this is a weird place to put down shopbot hobbyists when you don't even own the companies product. I think it is very dis-respectful to the company.
I sure wouldn't go on the vectric site and slam vectric hobby people if I owned artcam. I wouldn't do it if I owned vectric.

go to cnczone or signs101 or uksignboard or 3dsignforum.
but respect the shopbot company and its users. that's my opinion, and if you dis-agree, I hope we can still all be friends.

[Ken Sully]

Joe
Deciding you are going to teach, whether it's formally or in this sort of forum, means that you will face a number of personal decisions.
Do I teach only learned individuals?
Do I try and teach at all levels?
Do I get aggravated by "dumb" questions?
Do I come and go from the venue as it suits my mood and schedule?

Those are all yours to decide, but to intimidate those that come here looking for an answer or just some more general knowledge isn't right.
I know you have tried to be a leader in this area, but not everyone has the drive, education, or time to be a sign "pro". I think the giving spirit of this board is what attracted me to Shopbot and CNC in general and I firmly believe it should stay that way.
Bob
Bob,
Well said! The main reason I purchased ShopBot is largely due to this forum.
I am marveled to see the work many do with their units. I only hope to do half as well! I am a hobbyist and retired I have worked hard to raise my kids and sent them on life's journey and happy to report they are both fine.
I only hope I will be the source for answers to Bot questions in the future.

[cnc_works]

I gotta say I have heard no one put down hobbyists or anyone else in this thread. What I have heard are preferences as to where mentoring or instructive energy is devoted.

I can understand if your inclination is to help all comers, hobbyist or pro...more power to you.

But I understand and emphasize with Joe wanting to limit his focus to those who may NEED the help the most, those who are sometimes struggling to make a living for themselves and their family with their craft/work.

Joe, I do appreciate your posts and I benefit for your insight and experience wherever I am at my level of hobbyist/breadwinner.

[joe]

Ken,

Thanks for checking in. The word is out we will be having a workshop in the fall when the weather cools down. After that, we'll be setting up for two each year.

Unlike the hobby type workshops these will be limited to businesses. It will necessary to keep the class size small in order to give personal assistance.

I've been working on a curriculum directed at "Signage Which Sells:. There won't be any exotic materials or sculpturing in concrete. Most of what we'll be working are readily available in our communities.

More on this later.

Joe Crumley

[Xray]

Time is precious. I'm here to help those who have businesses.

With your experience and knowledge I know the hobby guys would appreciate your becoming active again.

Joe, you are absolutely free to help out anyone you want, thats a given.
I just don't see the need to throw little darts at others in the process. CNC is a fast growing racket, pros are always going to be far outnumbered by noobs, and those like me who are in between hobbyists & pros - No doubt machine makers like Shopbot hope this trend flourishes and grows.
Todays hobbyist might be tomorrows CNC business man or master sign maker, it only takes a spark to start a fire - And if they remain tinkering hobbyist for life, why would that matter to anyone else, including you ?

[danhamm]

I think Robert and Doug, should do some reading from the archives, its this forum and people like Joe , Doc, Brady, and many others that offered up their time and methods that made shopbot a success,ever heard of Ron Varela and his server? all your words are doing is riling up the oldtimes. in my opinion.

By the way Joe owned a shopbot.

[myxpykalix]

As someone who has hopefully helped a lot of guys over the years (closing in on 6000 posts!) I've asked and answered many questions and frankly learned alot from Joe just by reading his "nuggets of wisdom".

I'm no expert on signs but am now doing many signs for Hightech signs here locally but how is one to learn to be a expert without asking questions and getting help from the experts?

I think he's free to answer posts, or not, as he see's fit and shouldn't begrudge him either way. I just wish i could do a "Vulcan mind meld" with him and get some of that knowledge that way!:D

[danhamm]

Hey Jack.....the mind pictures your "Vulcan mind meld" between you and Joe brought forth, was priceless.

I saw you sitting there with a huge grin...and Joe had the most "awfull unbelieving" look...that I burst out laughing.. thanks for the post.

[paul_z]

I strongly disagree with Joe. "Hobby tinkering" is what created the V Inlay process.

Paul Z

[danhamm]

Hey, this is getting out of hand...I like Wayne Loches answer, I'm not here to defend Joe's words, but I think some of your interpretations are
not what Joe intended.
Joe is old, like me, short tempered,cranky and gets tired of answering the same questions over and over, but his knowledge and teachings are needed and freely given to those in need.
A lot of you may disagree with his choice of terminology but its his way of expression so please don't chase off the teacher.

[mark_stief]

AMEN some of us tell it like it is and most don't like how it is said

[jhedlund58]

I love and respect Joe for all the help he has given me. I have not met him other than on this forum. I have never considered myself as a hobbyist, but, many may say so. When I first bought my brand new prs standard buddy 48 with spindle from shopbot corporate a couple years ago, I was attempting to make some paddles for a canoe I made the old fashioned way. I hope I am not violating any rules by posting this project as Joe gave to me/us provided by posting a few years back on this forum in response to a thread. I sure he remembers. Very fitting.

I understand the frustration here... And, as an old guy, I find the search function difficult to use. And some times questions get asked too often.

Just the nature of the beast.... None of us is as smart as All of us... thanks for all the help

Jeff

18124

[mark_stief]

I don't see it as an Ego but when you know that you're good (JOE) you should be able to say so I have not read or seen where Joe is putting anyone into classes of good or bad we each have our own little corner that we want to be and if it works for you that's neat but just because he doesn't want to help part timers is his choice Personally mine doesn't get turned on unless it's to make money and I think that's what Joe is saying Keep up the good work I read every word you write and think you are on the right track we need to keep the art of signs alive and not everybody can do that

[Nancy]

This thread is, as one poster said, getting out of hand.