Mach 3 Post processor?

[Howley]

I have seen postings from people that have used the Mach 3 post processor as opposed to the one that comes with your Shopbot.

1. Why?
2. What are the advantages?
3. What are the disadvantages?

If I'm reading the web page right, Mach 3 is only a $150.00. Not a lot to spend if there are advantages to be gained.
Are there additional hardware modifications to the bot that have to be made?

Any insight would be appreciated, or I'm I completely misunderstanding what I'm reading.

Thanks, John

[donek]

Mach3 is a completely different control software than the Shopbot Control software. I have a machine that runs on Mach3. While Mach3 may be extremely versatile, in my opinion it's garbage as a router control software.

A post Processor is part of your CAM software. It is what tells the CAM software how to format the code it generates for a specific machine. Much of what is generated for a mach3 machine will be recognized by the shopbot control system. While you might be able to use a Mach3 part file, there's very little reason to generate mach3 code to run a shopbot. If someone has created a part for a Mach3 machine and only has that code, you could try using it to cut the part, but that would be the only reason, as far as I know, for running a Mach3 part file with the shopbot control software.

[cnc_works]

Sean, I would be very curious as to the negative experience you had with Mach to describe it as garbage. I'm not defending Mach, though I use it. Just thought I might profit from your experience.

[dana_swift]

The Vectric software that comes with a bot can only output through the ShopBot post processors. If you want to output to Mach3 you have to purchase VCarvePro or Aspire, both of which come with Mach3 post processors as well as the ShopBot posts.

My assumption is that there is a contract issue between SB and Vectric that is being enforced to get the software tools included with the bot purchase.

The vectric software is a big incentive to purchase a Bot over brand X which runs Mach3, as its included in the purchase price. Shopbot is subsidizing that software cost, so that appears to be why the Shopbot versions only output ShopBot SB3 control codes and not G codes, or any other type.

If you use Mach3 (FYI, I have only heard great things about it! The above is the first negative review I have ever heard, wonder why?) Just purchase the full versions of the Vectric products, the post processors you get are fully documented and you are free to edit the posts to adapt to specifics of your applications. Not only that they have a post processor for just about every CNC mill or router under the sun. The list of supported equipment is very very long.

Vectric can be reached for more specific support questions, email always works well when I have contacted them as its a "long distance" call. They reply very quickly. Same thing with SB as everyone knows :)

D

[donek]

Sean, I would be very curious as to the negative experience you had with Mach to describe it as garbage. I'm not defending Mach, though I use it. Just thought I might profit from your experience.

I will restrain myself and limit my comments to the 4 biggest issues I see.

1. Any piece of software that crashes so frequently that the author includes a reset button on every screen is not ready for commercial distribution. Shopbot has never included such a button. They have demonstrated that it is not necessary to include one.

2. This is the shopbot screen
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-3yexUzZAHn8/UhlSM8a8MdI/AAAAAAAAB4U/dIVIKztnBnM/w1026-h587-no/SP32-20130824-183608.jpg

below are 4 of the 6 screens that are necessary to accomplish the same tasks that shopbot has cleverly incorporated into one screen.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8LTLKuQUTh8/UhlUOhO_-oI/AAAAAAAAB5E/R2IdeBfH2AI/w1136-h862-no/SP32-20130824-183427+combined.jpg

If you believe that it is difficult to learn CNC try starting with the Mach3 interface. As a 14 year veteran , I still don't get the majority of the stuff on these screens or why they are even required.

3. If you don't or can't position your limit switches where mach3 requires, it is impossible to get their soft limits to work. This is the feature that prevents the machine from running into the dead stops, or right of the rails if no dead stops exist.

4. This may not necessarily be Mach3's fault, but G-code is not a language that is user friendly. There are a hundred or more commands all assigned a number. There is no intuitive logic to this language, so the beginner or expert is left needing a written table of commands and an explanation of what they do. The shopbot language is not only intuitive, it is built off the menus at the top of the control console, so it's not even necessary to open a book or look at a help document to discover what a command does.

While I will continue to use this machine run on mach 3 and I am endeavoring to develop an stripped down simple screen set for the CNC router user, I don't believe Mach3 is a useful beginners tool. Mach3 is the most commonly used control system for CNC machines, because it is relatively inexpensive. It is, however, the source of most new users frustration.

[Brady Watson]

There was a time when there was no such thing as a 4G board using microstepping drivers on a non-Alpha tool. Some decided to convert from running SB software to Mach for greater choices in motors and drives, which resulted in smoother cutting. This had nothing to do with the control software; It was about hardware choice. When the 4G came out, running Mach was a moot point because you could run any step and direction drive you wanted. Why people still want to run or convert to Mach on a SB is beyond me. It kills the resale value of the tool. To each his own I guess.

-B

[danhamm]

John, getting back to your question, is there any advantage to "you" converting to mach3, ( no) you would have to butcher your machine, meaning, remove the control board and replace it with a board capable of running mach3. and then have the fun of rewiring to that control board.

System controllers and software there are many, Shopbots, wincnc, candcnc,precix,and Mach3 and now mach4, these are just some I have used, all have there highs and lows and all do pretty much the same thing.
The thing with mach3 is most of the control software is open to oem's building there own front ends and some front end control operations.
I at present run Mach3 and am very happy with it, I use 2 different setups one for 3/d and another for everyday use.
That said consider it the...Ford versus GMC versus Dodge scenario.

[donclifton]

One should not knock what one doesn't understand. I have converted several shopbot and other routers to use Mach3. One could have both if they wanted by just disconnecting the motors from the shopbot controller and connecting them to a mach built system. In Mach I can build a screen just like the one that shopbot uses with all the same inputs and outputs. I'm in no way knocking shopbot but I just want to let you know that in mach you can write your own macro's to do just about anything you want, design your own screen, and buttons that call scripe's or macro's. You can do Tangentail cutting, run a lathe, Mill, Hotwire cutter or any other piece of cnc equipment you want. I have mine with a semi automatic tool changer, Laser center finder. Mach might not be for everyone but if you like to customize your setup mach is for you.
thanks
Don

[adrianm]

If you're able to customize Mach3 to that level then you can do the same with the ShopBot software as well. I run a completely custom written touch screen interface for my ShopBot. The only thing that anyone used to SB3 would recognise is the red panel. All the same macros/programs can be written in SB3 as well.

It definitely is horses for courses though. I used Mach3 for years to and didn't have a problem with it but I found the ShopBot software far easier to customise and modify (although I did write my own screensets and several macros for Mach3) probably because of the software languages I favour rather than any failing with Mach3.

IMHO SB3 is a much more user friendly control software out of the box compared to Mach3. Software designed for one purpose is always going to be easier to use than something meant for multiple purposes.

However if I had multiple computer controlled machines (not necessarily routers) then I would almost certainly be running Mach3.

[sam_harbold]

I ran Shopbot software for the past 13 years until I was forced to switch from Shopbot to MACH about a year ago. The switch to MACH was easy about a 1/2 a day including hardware changes. From time to time I get a job that requires me to hand write the code. I have written the code for jobs in both Shopbot and Gcode and to be honest I didn't find one harder than the other. As for the reset button on each screen it's not there to reset the software (I have never had Mach crash in the year I have been using it) but is there to reset an E stop activation. I can say the biggest difference with Mach is my machine is a lot faster and more reliable. My max jog speeds under Shopbot control was 3-4 IPS on the x & Y and .5 ips on the Z. With Mach max jog is 10-12 IPS on all three axis. The Z axis was a real problem under Shopbot control move speeds of .25 IPS were unreliable in that after several z moves I would be cutting either too deep or not deep enough. Cutting a 3D file was out of the question. With Mach I have gone as high as 4 IPS move speed on the Z and cut numerous large files including 3D files and the Z axis has remained constant.

Sam

[bearcat]

Sam,

What ShopBot hardware were you running before then changeover and what Mach3 hardware are you now using?

Ed

[donek]

Sam,

What ShopBot hardware were you running before then changeover and what Mach3 hardware are you now using?

Ed

I haven't changed any of my shopbots over to mach3. I have an old PR that's been converted to a PRT box and a PRS Standard. I recently purchased a small machine running on Mach3 as a demo platform for our drag knife and so that I could learn more about Mach3 and support those drag knife customers using the software. While I am able to run that machine fine, I find the software bloated and cumbersome in comparison to the shopbot control system. In my production operation, everything is about efficiency and minimizing steps and extra work. Mach3 seems to add unnecessary steps. Without a custom screen set, I do not believe I could reliably teach someone to run a mach3 machine unless they were an experienced CNC operator.

[Brady Watson]

It's funny how Mach gets credit for the performance increase that is 100% attributed to better hardware. Take any 1/4 stepping drive and replace with a microstepping drive with morphing technology like a G203V, and it completely transforms everything about the tool. A factory 4G upgrade does the same thing on an old PR or PRT. Kool-Aid optional.

I'd also like to hear how Sam was "forced" to upgrade to Mach. I can't see a 4G upgrade being that much more than buying Geckos, a breakout, Mach license and whatever convoluted parallel port work around required to communicate with it on a new computer. There must have been someone standing there with a gun or axe while upgrading.

If you ever had to sell your machine for any reason, nobody is going to give you top dollar for a Mach converted ShopBot. It's a step child at that point & unless they already own a Mach machine, it is a tough sell. I've done pre-purchase inspections on a few converted machines and buyers are turned off by this sort of thing.

The bottom line is Mach is cheap @ only $175 (Even cheaper during the Master5 days...). It isn't popular because it is good; It's popular because it is cheap. End of story. I run it here in the shop on 2 non-production lathes because it is cheap and I don't want to put together a Linux or DOS box.

At the end of the day, it's your tool - run whatever you want...But don't be fooled by any hype that your ShopBot is going to run any better by changing control software & nothing else.

-B

[sam_harbold]

My machine is a PR9648 which I purchased new from ShopBot in the spring of 1999. Several years later I purchased a newer control box I think is was a prt box but can not be certain. It was an upgrade offered by ShopBot at the time where you bought the new box and then returned the circuit board out of the old box. Other than that my machine remained original until November of last year when I was in the middle of cutting a room of raised panel wainscot and my ShopBot just quit. I could smell burnt electronic parts coming from the control box. I called Shopbot and was told that there we no tech there but the person took my information and said someone would give me a call. 24 hours later I still had not heard from anyone so I called back and this time the techs were busy but I was put through to their voice mail. I left a short message giving the basics of what happen and ask what my options were. Another day went by with no response from ShopBot so I can only assume that because of a 10 year old system I am out of luck. It was a Friday afternoon and my customer was wanting an answer as to when I was going to deliver the wainscot. I went on line order MACH3 and a Gecko G540. I received the G540 Monday morning around 11:00am. Installed the G540 along with the power supply from the ShopBot control box and my 5:00 pm was back in business. Pulled my files up in Vcarve and changed the post processor to MACH save the cut files and finished my job that evening and delivered it to the lumber dealer the next morning.

My machine today is still the original PR9648 machine with the original steppers and belt drive gear boxes. My controller is a G540 with the Power supply I removed from the old ShopBot controller.

Sam

[donclifton]

This was one of the reasons I have converted so many shopbot PRT's to Mach and gecko drives. The old PRT's had all the drives on one board, if one died you needed to replace the board. the drivers on the board were only 1.5 amp chips and fail often. I alway replace them with gecko 203V drive which are unkillable. The last, my own PRT I used gecko 251 drives the same thats in a gecko 540 and has given me no problem. As far as Mach 3 goes its a choose of do you want something simple like a printer or do you want something that you can configure to your needs, its not about cost its about what you want to do with your machine.
Don

[Howley]

Ok...I'm just beginning my journey in to CNCs, I think I will stick with the original control software!

Thank you everybody for taking the time to answer my questions, I learn a lot from reading these replays!

My training and machine are both scheduled for middle October, wish me luck!

[donek]

This was one of the reasons I have converted so many shopbot PRT's to Mach and gecko drives. The old PRT's had all the drives on one board, if one died you needed to replace the board. the drivers on the board were only 1.5 amp chips and fail often. I alway replace them with gecko 203V drive which are unkillable. The last, my own PRT I used gecko 251 drives the same thats in a gecko 540 and has given me no problem. As far as Mach 3 goes its a choose of do you want something simple like a printer or do you want something that you can configure to your needs, its not about cost its about what you want to do with your machine.
Don

Have you created a friendlier screen set for those machines? I have one in the works. I'm happy with the cut screen, but have not really spent any time on the preview or other screens.

[donclifton]

I use screen4 to edit my screens. I often take features from different screen to make my own. I also use the 2010 screen set.
Don