I don't want to break copywrite laws...but

[jhedlund58]

I got a young guy who purchased a used shark cnc.... guess he wanted more than a desktop and the 2x4 shark was in his price range as a used machine. I was able to find the PP on vectric site. can I give or better yet sell him cut files generated for his machine from my vectric aspire and photovcarve software using the vectric patterns. His software stinks compared to mine.... chances are I b giving them away.

[jerry_stanek]

The shark comes with Vcarve pro didn't he get it with the machine. He can register it in his name with Vectric for a small amount

[jhedlund58]

The Shark is USED guessing 5 or more years old. I did not recognize the software name when he told me over the phone. I got on shark site and noticed they do provide the vectric software today. Their older machines do not have a zero plate either and the router looks like a trim model. But it came with a probe. I e-mailed the folks at vectric and should have their answer soon.

[GlenP]

Hey. My understanding of the copyright of graphics and artwork is you are not to resell the artwork by itself to others. You can create toolpaths and files for him to run on his machine with no worries. I do it all the time for customers that have a cnc but don't have aspire and or don't have time to create their files and artwork to cut. When you buy the artwork you are not buying the art itself, you are buying the right to use them yourself. If you ever sell your tools and or artwork you are suppose to not resell the artwork unless the buyer agrees to pay a change of ownership fee. At least that is how I understand it to be. I will try and find a copy of the copyright rules I save once. If you are still unsure it never hurts to contact them and tell the software company your concerns.

[kartracer63]

Not even close Glen!

If you don't own the copyrighted file, or if you haven't purchased the license YOURSELF, you cannot produce anything with the artwork in question.

Sending another person a cut file for artwork you pruchased a license for is the same thing as sharing your purchased file, and you cannot do it. It's the same as stealing.

Here it is in a nutshell... if you didn't create the original work, you cannot use it or share it. If you don't own a license to use somebody else's original work, you can't use it. And under no circumstanses should you ever share somebody elses work with anybody else, even if you bought a license to use it, EVER.

[coryatjohn]

Warning: IANAL

I think it depends on the license. If the license allows for "derivative works" then a cut file would be that and if allowed by the license, be within reason. Read the terms of any license carefully before doing anything out of the ordinary.

[MogulTx]

Guys: It sounds like he is asking if the use of a vectric post processor cut file for artwork that the customer brings to him would be OK. I can't see how he would have a problem with this....

In this case, I can not see that there would be a problem if he has a right to the artwork. The file would definitely be from a licensed version of VCarve Pro or Aspire, etc.... and the software was originally sold WITH the PP - so why would they have an argument????

I think we make these kinds of things too complicated.

I just recently had someone do a 3D file for me from their copy of aspire. The artwork was provided to me, and I have tacit permission to set this up ( and will only do this project for the benefit of the people who provided the artwork) .... it is the same situation where the person did a file for me from HIS copy of aspire and I will use it on MY machine.... where is the conflict on all of that? I do not see one... ( and like mr Coryat said: IANAL- so take that with a grain of salt....)

MGM

[kartracer63]

I can tell you this, from my own personal experience.

I have the Partworks (V-Carve Pro) and Cut3D software that comes with a ShopBot.

I wanted to carve some 3D wildlife scenes recently. Because I don't own Vectric's Aspire software, I needed somebody to do the modeling for me. I have a friend that has Aspire and was willing to help me out with some modeling, provided I purchased all of the 3D images that we'd be using.
I could have him do the modeling using only 3D files that I have purchased, and I would do the toolpathing with my Cut3D software.

Wrong!

We checked with Vectric to see if they would have any problems with this arrangement, and they did. They explained because the modeling would be done in their Aspire software, that I would also need to own the Aspire software in order for our arrangement to work.

I wouldn't push your luck on any of this stuff. It's just not worth it.

[gerryv]

Interesting discussion. I have Aspire and although I'm still not using it yet my understanding is that it can export 3D in generic .stl format that is pretty much universal. So, say I want to use it to create 3D clipart of toads toenails (niche market) for sale, I'd have guessed that I could do this. Maybe not so?

[myxpykalix]

For every guy here, you will get a differing opinion, and you know what they say about opinions don't you?

"Opinions are like A**Holes, everyone has one, and most of them stink!":D
I would think the ruling restriction would be with the creator of the artwork and not the program you use it with?

[GlenP]

Eric. I do not believe I am wrong. I never give the customer the artwork just the toolpaths. They don't receive the vectorart. The thing companies want to protect is that their artwork and designs are used by only the buyer and not given out when cnc guy or designer does up the files. This would be sharing and big no no.


Quote- I can tell you this, from my own personal experience.

I have the Partworks (V-Carve Pro) and Cut3D software that comes with a ShopBot.

I wanted to carve some 3D wildlife scenes recently. Because I don't own Vectric's Aspire software, I needed somebody to do the modeling for me. I have a friend that has Aspire and was willing to help me out with some modeling, provided I purchased all of the 3D images that we'd be using.
I could have him do the modeling using only 3D files that I have purchased, and I would do the toolpathing with my Cut3D software.

Wrong!

We checked with Vectric to see if they would have any problems with this arrangement, and they did. They explained because the modeling would be done in their Aspire software, that I would also need to own the Aspire software in order for our arrangement to work.

I wouldn't push your luck on any of this stuff. It's just not worth it.


I find the above concerning. There is no rules broken if a guy that doesn't have aspire and wants to hire another guy to do his aspire work for him. When buying the software is there a checkbox that says "I have aspire". There is lots of 3d software out there....what if a guy uses AtrCam and not Vectric software. I do also sometimes fuss can make a mountain out of a mole hill. As long as the artwork is bought and not been handed out or copied I see no rules are broken. They want you to pay for their artwork and not have it given away...plain and simple. I am the same. I like getting paid for work and it not be given away. I think of it this way. When I pay for the artwork, I am paying for the right to use it...not own it. I am allowed to use it in my work but not allowed to reproduce it (artwork) and sell to my customers. If I sell my business I am not allowed to sell the artwork as I do not own it. I simply have paid for the right to use it. One company that is very strict is Letterhead Fonts. Dont blame them. I cant imagine the number of lines of code to create that...yikes.
Folks from Vectric visit this site so perhaps we can get them to chime in. They own Vectorart 3d which is really the ones we should ask.

[Brady Watson]

I'm not going to speak on behalf of any software company, but here's the generally accepted gist of it:

What you can do: If you created a file from scratch in a paid for/registered version of the software, then you are free to sell the files that you personally created. This includes vector, relief and post processed toolpath data.

What you cannot do: Resell ANY data, including derivative works, of any file that you purchased or acquired, without express permission of the author(s) of said data. This includes vector, relief and post processed toolpath data.


I never give the customer the artwork just the toolpaths. They don't receive the vectorart.

Glen,
That's against the rules, according to the license agreement. Here is a portion of the license agreement from Vector Art 3D:


It is against the law to copy, reproduce, or transmit (including, without limitation, electronic transmission over any network) any part of the website or part or whole of any of the computer models except as permitted by the Copyright Act of the United States. Under the law, copying includes translating into another language or format. You may not under any conditions copy original or altered computer models or images to sell or distribute to others or operate the models on more than one computer at a time. The purchase or use of Vector Art 3D computer models does not, in any way, transfer ownership or rights to contents, in whole or in part, to you.

If you have a customer who wants a VA3D design for their kitchen, it is completely legal to use your CNC router to machine the relief and sell that machined relief to them. It is legal to sell that same or similar hunks of wood with that design in it to your customers. Selling the toolpaths is against the rules. Toolpaths are a translation of the original data. One could easily backplot a toolpath to create a 3D file that without a question resembles the original VA3D file.

-B

[Xray]

Interesting discussion. I have Aspire and although I'm still not using it yet my understanding is that it can export 3D in generic .stl format that is pretty much universal. So, say I want to use it to create 3D clipart of toads toenails (niche market) for sale, I'd have guessed that I could do this. Maybe not so?

If you created the toads toenails yourself, you are free to do as you please with them in any format. The OP was about vectric files which are copyrighted, and the terms of use are clear that they are not to be sold, given away or shared in any form or format.

[myxpykalix]

It seems like everytime someone asks a copyright question it always turns into a heated discussion:eek:

[kartracer63]

Jack,

Are you going to add anything meaningful to the conversation? Or, are you just going to stir the pot and add a couple more posts to your excessive post count?

[GlenP]

I certainly don't find this to be a heated conversation. Just chit chat about a issue we all struggle with.

[genek]

Here is a good rule to live by and to go by.

1. did you create the file from scratch. if yes you can do what ever you like with it. if no you are the only one that can use it.
2. did You down load clip art and make something out of it. if yes you are the only one that can use it. You can not give it away or sale it.
3.did you buy the pattern? you can use it and sale the product produced by it. but you can not sale the tool path, or any part there of.

copy right and licensing laws have some huge teeth. They can come in and take everything you own. Most large companies have attorneys just looking for infringement of their rights, the attorney get 80 to 90% of the money or property that is collected. The college Licensing will come and have the court to lock up your shop, take your equipment and your inventory (not only in your shop but all the stores that they find your product in.
by the way they do not take you to court in your town they do it in Federal court where ever their office is.. If you do not show up they will get judgment with out you having a say.

think of it this way how would you like to make something and have someone else steal it and sale it as their work.

when you take someone else patterns you are doing just that.
they spent the time developing those patterns, they spent the money to develop the cd or dvd to put those patterns on so that when you place the cd or dvd in your computer it down loads and works.

the cost of developing a cd of patterns is very expensive. I know. I still have not recouped my investment into the first volume. The program that opens up my Home and Hearth volume one. cost $4,500.00 This does not include the cost of having video editing and other expensive. vector art 3/d and other pattern companies have expenses other than just drawing the pattern I would venture to say that vector art 3/d's patterns takes a minimum of 30 sales to just break even on each patterns. that is why companies get bent out of shape over what you use their files for.

[genek]

another thing about one giving or sailing copy right patterns, say some one gets hurt or killed , they take the company that orginally made the pattern to court, that company comes to court and informs the court that they did not sale this pattern to that person, guess who they are now going to after (you). You have no protection with the clauses that are in most software, only the company that wrote the software has. If that person was killed you could be charged with involuntary manslaughter. There are expenses that go on long after the software has stopped being sold by the company that developed it.

if you did not design it do not give it away or sale it..

[Brady Watson]

Jack,

Are you going to add anything meaningful to the conversation? Or, are you just going to stir the pot and add a couple more posts to your excessive post count?

LOL!!!!

Maybe Jack is feeling the 'heat' of a guilty conscience? :eek: :D

Gene,
Good points. I have found that most people out there are good natured and want to do the right thing. The license agreement on the VA3D site was hard to find. I had to Google it.

-B

[genek]

Brad you are right most people are good nature d and do try to do what is right. Sometimes people do wrong and do not know that they are doing wrong or have done wrong. But discussion like this helps all of us. we learn by asking questions and by trial and error. Until I did my first set of patterns, I had no clue as to what others go through. on getting copy rights, setting up the programs , attorney fees, luckily My attorney set me down and explained everything I need to do, What my fees are and will be. There is more than just designing the pattern to consider, it not just design put it on a 1.00 disk and mail it out. the programs that allow the disk to open is high. insurance on the product is high. there is way more than what meets the eye on pattern development and publication. The first disk was hard I learned a lot from doing it, I am taking my time on the next 4. (volume two and three, wine volume and the games and fun volume. plus I have to wait till I pay the first one off. lol had no clue it would cost me what it did to publish the first one or the work and nightmares.

[myxpykalix]

[QUOTE=bradywatson;151779]LOL!!!!

Maybe Jack is feeling the 'heat' of a guilty conscience?

Eric,
I was trying to fashion a response that wouldn't get Nancy all mad at me:eek:
All i've tried to do with my "excessive posting" is to try to help others. Maybe i'm not as technically knowlegable as Brady, or as experienced a woodworker as Andrew Coholic, or as experienced a sign maker as Joe Crumley, or as smart at writing shopbot code as Dana but at least i try to help as much as i can, when i can.
Sure out of 6,000+ posts they're not all going to be "nuggets of wisdom" but then again whose all are? I suppose you could take 10% of my posts, divide that by 2 and it's still more then some bother to post....i'm just sayin':rolleyes:

As someone who has successfully won a copyright suit prosecuting it "pro se" in a federal court against a city govt. let me explain a few of what i understand as the issues here.
What we have here is both contract law and copyright law. You can violate one and not necessarily the other. When you buy a model from any one of the companies in the purchase you agree to abide by an agreement between the parties as a condition of the purchase. What ever their licensing agreement calls for.
Depending on the type of work it is, like a book, I am allowed to take some of that work under the "fair use" doctrine to use it to teach in a classroom.
A good lawyer could sucessfully argue either side depending on the type of work.
I can't take a model and add something to it and resell it or call it mine but i can look at a picture of it and recreate it from scratch and even if it looks like the original it is still my work.
Why do they allow all these regular songs to be used on youtube behind home videos? Like i said, you could have 10 people read the copyright law and come up with 10 different opinions....
I'm not sure what brought your "ire" on, i thought i have always been complimentary of your work and respectful of your posts....hmmmm:rolleyes:

[jamesb]

To add some clarification as far as Vectric/Vector Art 3D goes. If you create the design and 3D models yourself from scratch you can do what you like with it in terms of selling/sharing/toolpath etc.

If it uses any Vector Art 3D or Vectric clipart then the license does not permit you to share the original artwork or any electronic file derived from it. So you should not be selling or sharing 3D models, Aspire files or toolpaths if they use the 3D models or even edited parts of them. If anyone has questions about this you can email me at JamesB (at) Vectric (dot) com.

The software itself is irrelevant, this applies to any program if the design includes one of the clipart models whether a Vectric program or not.

So pretty much what Brady and genek said.

Thanks,
James

[jhedlund58]

Well.... Back to my original post... even though I thought that a toolpath wood be ok to share. It is VERY clear that that is not the case. Good enuff for me.

Wife and I got invited to cook out this week end and have to make Potato Salad. They live 25 miles away. I will help him with what he has purchased ... not what I have purchased... At least I get to see his shark and meet the family.

thanks all for clearing this up for us

[jerry_stanek]

Using James advice why not take his design and show him how easy it is to do on your Vectric software and point him in the Vectric family

[waynelocke]

Why not just have your friend purchase the models from James and have you tool path them?

[gerryv]

Some really really good points Wayne and others.

With no intention of trying only to "kiss up" to Vectric or anyone else, there is no way that I can imagine that the vast majority of CNC users (any colour of machine) could produce from scratch, the quality of what can be bought from Vectric/James or, for that matter, even any credible competitors for a price that is less than most CNC'rs charge for just one hour of work - even two, or three... Excellent value is just that.

Thanks for the wise comment.