Wave Surface Software

[Burkhardt]

I am posting here because I am working on a new software project that allows for the flexible generation of wave surfaces. This would be .stl for e.g. Vectric CAM software or direct shopbot/g-code roughing and finish files. It can also warp existing machine files like v-carve code to conform with the generated wavy surface.

I know there are many professional sign makers here and was wondering if that might be interesting for this application (I am just a hobbyist). Any opinion is welcome. To give an impression of what this software can do, please see below. If there is enough interest I may add a proper user interface to the software and make it available for other CNC users.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-LTZoNgJ-EoE/UiIvM0sGdfI/AAAAAAAAENA/tdCQ872shJk/w1024-h768-no/DSC01877.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-5LzbhXH2BYI/UiIvN3iGqII/AAAAAAAAENI/ta6JhAHESig/w1024-h768-no/DSC01880.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-RJl5QhaGkhg/UiIvOxju67I/AAAAAAAAENQ/icMfYtlWnIA/w1024-h768-no/DSC01884.JPG

I know, I should not have used this jittery font and better done it with a 60 degree bit for a cleaner cut. But this is actually my first try.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-GZyuNsgVR4o/UiIvQ6JGHII/AAAAAAAAEOI/WAhvvxFuKOA/w1024-h688-no/DSC01886.JPG

[joe]

Congratulations on some interesting textures. Perhaps we'll see some applications with these techniques.

Texturing with a router has been difficult to say the least. Up to now we have been trying to copy mother nature. It's a tough act to follow. But just about anything beats a plain flat surface.

One of the mistakes with background textures is to over do them. A texture should be subtle and not detract from the subject. The attached photo has a woodgrain which isn't too strong. That's what I'm looking for.

Keep up the good work.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[Red F]

Definitely interested.

[myxpykalix]

Was it Gene? Burkhart,

I would post this also in the general catagory also because i can see many other applications like making a full wave wall texture for paneling designs and being output to a stl would allow for other 3d models to be blended in like say a fish sticking his head out of the waves or other creative ideas.

I'd like to see a screenshot of the interface to see how you generate certain patterns. I bet just experimenting with different types of "sine waves" would allow you to create an infinite variety of patterns. Very interesting and creative, keep up the good work:D

[Bob Eustace]

Lovely work with definite uses. Please keep going!

[Burkhardt]

One of the mistakes with background textures is to over do them.....www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

Good point. I guess for normal background textures the wave height would have to be dialed in quite small to not drown out the message of the sign. What I tried to do in this first attempt was rather a sculpture with text than a text with background. :rolleyes:

But that was the reason to ask here. I am not yet sure what all can be done with this gadget.

[Burkhardt]

Was it Gene? Burkhart
Actually the first name is Gert. But I try to keep my full name out of these forums. I don't need Google, Microsoft, NSA and the likes link more of my online activities together than need be. :eek:


I would post this also in the general catagory also because i can see many other applications like making a full wave wall texture for paneling designs and being output to a stl would allow for other 3d models to be blended in like say a fish sticking his head out of the waves or other creative ideas.

I'd like to see a screenshot of the interface to see how you generate certain patterns. I bet just experimenting with different types of "sine waves" would allow you to create an infinite variety of patterns. Very interesting and creative, keep up the good work:D

I will post more when the user interface is integrated. Right now all the parameters are hard coded which is not practical for distribution. But at least the math for the tool paths is done which was the hard part. I had to dig out college knowledge that I forgot for the last 40 years. The rest is more busy work for another week or so.

The ability of trying different patterns may indeed be useful for wall or cabinet panels. See below a few things that I tried out on the computer (not all of that in wood yet). I can define as many wave generators (rocks in the pond) as desired and even do spiral waves that would be difficult to do in nature. But I noticed when using more than 2 or 3 generators the result becomes a bit of a jumbled wave mess.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-xVmYw5kMgqs/UiAg7GG5NcI/AAAAAAAAEI0/TIfVr3AczX0/w800-h526-no/ScreenHunter_01+Aug.+29+21.20.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--_XeD6nRinw/UiAg77-qBFI/AAAAAAAAEI8/oBXGk8GuOO8/w800-h550-no/ScreenHunter_02+Aug.+29+21.20.jpg

[Burkhardt]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-7fj12ihG5_I/UiAg8vFdofI/AAAAAAAAEJE/0bA9wMxdjEs/w800-h492-no/ScreenHunter_03+Aug.+29+21.21.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-xTdKcMJml4s/UiAg-TQRE1I/AAAAAAAAEJk/vlxF7GPmXAo/w800-h519-no/ScreenHunter_07+Aug.+29+21.28.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kMPw2JyThcI/UiAg_AAMt-I/AAAAAAAAEJs/lxTgL4kSmoY/w800-h516-no/ScreenHunter_08+Aug.+29+21.31.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-TG5tycCNlJo/UiIvLrBS6_I/AAAAAAAAEM4/dGVPJi0Lo88/w1024-h768-no/DSC01890.JPG

[khaos]

Well I dig it anyway. :) Nice widget!:cool:

[Mayo]

I wonder if you can increase the frequency of waves or the quantity of them, with less space between them, and arrange them so that they are parallel to the long side of the board - if you would then wind up with something that looks like wood grain texture.

Just like the boards that your finished oval example is laying on.

If you can program a gadget that would allow the machining of wood grain patterns using a 2D machining strategy it would eliminate the hours of 3D machining time currently required to make anything resembling wood grain - especially sandblasted wood grain.

A wood grain gadget in my opinion would be way more in demand by sign makers than the wave gadget. The wave gadget is a very cool idea but I think it would have a much smaller user base.

[joe]

Mayo,

I'm like you with this process.

Wood graining and textures of all kinds are here with JPG's. This process may have lots of applications beyond signs but if it's done with a time consuming STL it has little application in this trade.

The profit margin in this craft is NARROW. Time is the same as money.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[Burkhardt]

I wonder if you can increase the frequency of waves or the quantity of them, with less space between them, and arrange them so that they are parallel to the long side of the board - if you would then wind up with something that looks like wood grain texture.

Just like the boards that your finished oval example is laying on.

If you can program a gadget that would allow the machining of wood grain patterns using a 2D machining strategy it would eliminate the hours of 3D machining time currently required to make anything resembling wood grain - especially sandblasted wood grain.

A wood grain gadget in my opinion would be way more in demand by sign makers than the wave gadget. The wave gadget is a very cool idea but I think it would have a much smaller user base.

Thanks Mayo, you may have given me an idea for the next project....

Replicating real sandblasted wood grain mathematically would be a challenge but I may give it a try.

The current wave generator can surely create a shallow and straight short wave ripple but used as such it would just look like corrugated sheet metal. Probably not very attractive.

I tried it somewhat differently and created a curved ripple with larger wave spacing. Then I used the surface to warp the pocket bottom of a "sign board" and cut it with a 1/4" ball end and large path overlap into MDF. Well, surely does not look much like real wood but with a bit more experimentation maybe useful anyway.

This wave surface (as well as the previous samples) was not done using the .stl file but by modification of the pocket toolpath generated by VCarvePro. Total machining time for this 16"x8" board was about 30 minutes. Never mind the screw-up on the cut-out and my lack of sanding diligence.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UO86DK2pu_Y/UiO2LOmhMZI/AAAAAAAAEO8/CksNlA6IbaY/w1024-h468-no/DSC01897.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-59V6AG3MzKY/UiO2I3tpPiI/AAAAAAAAEPE/4VL3V2TtKrs/w1024-h423-no/DSC01892.JPG

[Joseph clements]

Can you make that water Texturing a Gadget for aspire 4.0 ?

[bleeth]

His qadget, if I am not mistaken, will result in files that can easily be imported into Aspire as well as other programs. Why limit it to the newest release of Aspire only?

[danhamm]

Take a look at Pauls, software I have been using his topo and wave makers for quite awhile.

http://paulrowntree.weebly.com/standingwave.html

[scottp55]

My first thought was flame birch and quilted maple water effect panels, Dan thanks for standing wave link, saw it was set up for VCarvePro and downloaded it looking forward to checking it out as soon as this daylong lightning storm let's up,everything except this laptop shut down. That "water drop" is beautiful, with a coat of 3D illuminator and lots of tung on the quilted I think you could sink into it. Nice.

[Burkhardt]

Can you make that water Texturing a Gadget for aspire 4.0 ?


Take a look at Pauls, software I have been using his topo and wave makers for quite awhile.

http://paulrowntree.weebly.com/standingwave.html

I think Paul has covered most of the need for Aspire/Vcarve gadget users. I was rather looking at a more stand-alone application that either feeds a 3-d-surface into CAM software (with all the limitations) or better uses the output of CAM software to be 3-d modified.

But for now I am just playing with the software methods. Maybe in a few weeks I have something for public testing. Thanks for the feedback!

GB

P.S.: Mayo's idea of synthetic wood grain is really fabulous. I just need to figure out how to parametrize the typical random growth patterns, quartersawn vs. plain, crotches, knots and the like.

[joe]

You guys have got me completely confused.

Dan help me out on this one. I can't figure out anything to be gained with all this process. We already have beautiful, natural grain effects from mother nature. The major issue for most guys on this forum is the time it takes to machine. As you know I turn my machine on at night and let it run but that's dangerous with a router. However, if this process will cut the machining time down significantly and maintain a good pattern that would be great.

Once I left sandblasting, redwood, behind and started machining my woodgrain there was no going back. A bad machine woodgrain effect is worse than nothing. For that reason I rely on photographs of actual sandblasted wood. When a job is finished it's close to impossible to distinguish the difference between HDU and the real thing.

So, where are we going with this process? Is It to save machine time?

Joe Crumley

[Burkhardt]

You guys have got me completely confused.

Dan help me out on this one. I can't figure out anything to be gained with all this process.

Hello Joe, please keep in mind I was not trying to advertise a new method of doing signs with texture backgrounds. I was rather wondering and looking for advice if the gadget that I am creating might be useful for somebody else. For me (not being a professional) it is honestly a mathematical tinker toy with potential practical applications.

I did not have wood grain emulation in mind originally but just the creation of infinitely variable wavy surfaces and how to translate this into tool paths for real router bits, as well as the projection (or conformal warping) of other tool paths onto such surfaces. I can do that quite well now.

The idea of wood imitation came up here with another post and I have no idea if it is even possible to get close to realism and if such a method may be "better" or more time efficient than a bitmap conversion. But, I am sure I am going to think about it :rolleyes:

In the meantime , the application may indeed be more suited to panel work or other artistic ideas than for production sign making. Well, except if you want to put a pond into your signs....

[danhamm]

Joe as you know, when you live in a area as big as Texas but with only 100,000 people you have to invent more work for your machinery.

I love doing signage but there isn't enough available so why not use the technology to make a different kind of sign so to speak.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=textured+wall+panels&newwindow=1&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=dEomUvbXL4qNigKfsICgCQ&ved=0CEUQsAQ&biw=1097&bih=808

[joe]

Dan,

I understand but wave wall is an extreme nitch. Naw, it's all about playing around with a computer and router and that's OK.

[danhamm]

I get a feeling from a weathered old grey boards put together that none, not wave carved or vcarved patterns or sandblasted could ever match.

but they don't go every where or match up to environments..but the feeling..yah..

[Mayo]

Well I have no clue how the math behind these ideas works in order to get something tangible - but I was thinking about how you could incorporate knots or defects in order to make a woodgrain appear more natural.

Can you program your software so that instead of covering an entire panel, make it so that it must avoid objects that are previously drawn on that panel? In this way you could draw ovals or circles or irregular shapes on the panel first. Then when you tell your software to make waves (or woodgrain) it would have to stop at the boundaries of these existing objects. You could specify a gap or distance the wave must stop at before hitting the object.

The resulting pattern would flow around the objects and might create even more realistic or at the least, interesting options.

This would not be all that different from how current softwares have the ability to outline (or inline) an object multiple times at whatever distance you tell it.

[bleeth]

Mayo:
Since his algorithm basically results in a relief pattern you can do that in your part building the same way you would with pasting, adding or merging any relief to a model.
As far as woodgrains go, This isn't really a woodgrain generator. Best way for that is still the bitmap to relief method for relief. For Vector created woodgrains creating your grain lines and then v-carving them is another deal and one way or another you need to create good paired vectors.

[Burkhardt]

Mayo:As far as woodgrains go, This isn't really a woodgrain generator. .....

Correct. It is a wave pattern generator. Depending on the parameters the result may resemble wood grain very remotely but not comparable to real or image based grain patterns. I have some ideas how a better simulation could be accomplished but this is another serious project and I am not sure if it is worthwhile. After all, the image based patterns seem to do the job.

Now for the wave generator that I do have in work (some results posted earlier) there are different ways to use:

1. Most universal but fully 3-d and rather slow to machine: The software will create .stl files of the wave surface that can be used in 3d-CAD and CAM programs. E.g. scaled, rotated and combined with other 3-d models, then converted into tool paths with Cut3D, Aspire or DeskProto.

2. As a stand-alone wave pattern CAM software, e.g. to generate wall panels described in the other post. These can be "natural" straight or circular waves or exotic spiral waves (or the superposition of up to 5 separate waves). The output here is a roughing and a finishing g-code file (or shopbot file for that matter).

3. To warp an existing tool path so that it conforms with the wave surface machined from method number 2. This is the "gone fishing" carving picture posted earlier where the text and fish image v-carve was warped. Actually one could warp other tool paths as well and e.g. create an entire sign board that is not flat as usual but follows a wave. Not sure if there are customers for such crummy signs, though....:D

4. Another thing that I tried today is based on a suggestion from Jack Jarvis: To have an existing 3d-toolpath (or 2d) break through the surface of the waves. The result should be similar to what can be done with method #1 but probably easier to do. I will try to put that on the machine tonight or tomorrow and see if that works.

[scottp55]

Pursue, it stimulates, and may cause other ideas. I have many pieces of exotic or unusual wood that I want centered on a focal point and would want to expand on. One piece of Macassar and Rosewood spring to mind. Keep playing Please.

[myxpykalix]

G,
Glad i could help, after all..."i'm an idea man"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U5UH1kQeUA

:eek:

[Burkhardt]

..."i'm an idea man"...

Great idea :D

First an apology....The topic is not much related to sign making anymore but since the discussion got that far I wanted to reply to Jack Jarvis here. I will post future info in the "General" section.

Now for Jack's idea: took me a while to tweak the software (and having the refrigerator and freezer **** out when it is 102 degrees did not help) but I could do a test today. Besides the software work here is what I did:

- download a 3D file of a Dolphin from one of the free sites as .3ds
- loaded into Vectric 3d-Cut and created roughing and finish tool paths as usual. Material 4" x 8", 1.4" thick.
- created a wave shape with my app using the same x-y footprint as the toolpaths
- processed the tool paths so that all z-values below the wave surface are replaced by the z-values of the wave surface.
- cut into a scrap piece of lumber (might be Maple but not sure). 18min roughing and 23 min finish at 150 ipm/9000 ips. It came out pretty rough because the long 1/8" ball end bit flexed a lot when meandering back and forth.
- obviously the same result can be achieved combining the model with the wave in Rhino or similar but maybe useful if such software is not available.

Roughed out:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-K8XMXwIiuhg/UizujUwXEeI/AAAAAAAAEP4/nfnHGgrj7Tk/w1024-h755-no/DSC01899.JPG

Finish cut:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XvrlNsF8w7I/UizuloxsOII/AAAAAAAAEQA/zswcjkL21kY/w1024-h520-no/DSC01902.JPG

Sanded and lacquered:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-MegxeN2crqo/UizunKUGbgI/AAAAAAAAEQI/x28-KOqFEqU/w1024-h595-no/DSC01903.JPG

[myxpykalix]

G,
That looks pretty good to me!:eek: So you were able to hog out approx. 1" of material in a 4"x8" piece of material in a roughing and finishing pass in 41 minutes?
What i would be interested in knowing is if you can take the same file you created, i assume it is a stl of the shark in the wavy water, and load it into whatever program you use for creating toolpaths and do just a regular roughing and finishing 3d carving toolpath and tell us what the time difference in overall cutting is? I'd be interested in seeing the time difference.

Was the wave and the shark both cut as one toolpath in both the roughing and finishing toolpaths? Good Job....:D


So (EE) i guess i do have some good ideas and positive posts sometimes:rolleyes:

[scottp55]

Very nice, I immediately thought of a whale tail disappearing(but that would call for two wave patterns, the Normal pattern and the Disturbance pattern,can it do that?) . A pod of Orcas sleeping ? Keep up the good work I like your second much better than the sign and think you're on the right track.

[Burkhardt]

....What i would be interested in knowing is if you can take the same file you created, i assume it is a stl of the shark in the wavy water, and load it into whatever program you use for creating toolpaths and do just a regular roughing and finishing 3d carving toolpath and tell us what the time difference in overall cutting is? I'd be interested in seeing the time difference.
It would probably not make much difference. Except for the quick direction changes where the wave transitions into the body, I estimate 95% of the tool path along the wave and the body was running at full programmed 150 ipm speed that is 2.5 ips (not 9000 as I wrote earlier). As you can see from the big chips and splinters I was a bit aggressive on the roughing pass. Or maybe the bit is getting dull.
However, since the wave tool path consists of many short lines the file is much bigger than the original cut-3d file and to run full speed the controller must be able to process about 200 x-y-z position lines per second.


.....Was the wave and the shark both cut as one toolpath in both the roughing and finishing toolpaths? .....
Yes

[bob_s]

G Have you done any more work with a wood grain simulator? I want to cut some oak to look old. I do have Aspire, but the 3d cut times are just too long. I remember seeing some work done with cutting between vectors, or other ways. If it can be close and then the surface texture added with a body grinder and a wire wheel that's good was well. If you have any ideas I would love to test them. I have a 4x8 alpha with a spindle.
thanks
Bob

my email is bob at schlowsky dot com if you want to contact me off the forum

[Burkhardt]

Hi Bob,

have not used this much since I made this 30x30x6" piece of water drop wall art and a wave shape bowl that I posted here somewhere. Well, actually I provided wave surface .stl to a few people who asked for it but found most had trouble to import the surface (non-solid) stl into common CAM software.

Anyway, the wood grain simulation was just an idea because the software can do it but it did not find much interest last year so I dropped it. I would actually rather call it a ripple texture that resembles wood grain remotely but I think it might do the job for many purposes.

So, nothing has been done since and I have been working on joints, bowls and maze software instead.

GB

[bob_s]

Ok
Thanks