Pricing Small Routed Signs

[joe]

Almost everyone ends up with a small routed project every once in a while. Although there are guys who make a living at the smaller signs I've never been to get the hang of it. Here is a project one of my regular customers had me to do. Normally I'd decline but that wasn't going to happen with this one. So, here's my cost estimate:

Rough Cedar $25.00
Dibond 20.00
Sikkens stain 20.00


Design time 1 hr.
Routing (Double) 1 hr.
Glue up 1 hr.
Sales & Invoice .5 hr.
Material pickup, clean up around the shop, and putting tools up 2 hrs

I invoiced this one out at $385.00. I may be wrong but it seems to me this is about the financial limit, I can charge, for this kind of sign. If I had this type of work all day long, perhaps there would be enough profit. I just don't know. When I'm doing one up, like this, it may be a looser. But I sure like doing them.

Guys making small hand routed signs charging $100@ can knock out 2K a day during the State Fair. Any way you look at it our daily rate should be about $100 an hour. But even if it's only $50 per, you can see I'm already at the breaking point. Lets not even talk about mistakes.

Most of you guys are a lot better than I am at production. My assistant, Ron, can stay on the router all day and not tire. Me, I can paint and finish all day and have a ball. For that reason I sold my CNC and job the work out to Ron. It works best for both of us. I predict there will be increased business like this. There are tons of sign shops who need router work done for them but few people are going after it. The key is to have killer samples and visit the client often.

At this time I'm snow under because I'm using my creative time much better. Wish I'd wised up to this years earlier.

Joe

[knight_toolworks]

20.00 for dibond? looks like a small scrap piece would do it. You got to get them to bring the materials to you like my customers I have them well trained (G)

[bleeth]

Joe:

There is NO comparison between the level of workmanship and design that you have in that sign to the "knock-out" State Fair signs. Your material pricing is right on, as although "cost" per foot or ounce of finish may be less you, of course, bought larger quantirty, stored it, and deserve a material mark-up like any merchant.

Another beautiful piece, as per usual!

If all you actually had in sales/invoicing for it was 1/2 hour then you had a very co-operative client. I think one of the larger issues that a lot of signmakers, and for that matter, cabinet makers and other custom craftsman have, is the amount of time that ends up going into developing the trust from the client to let them do their thing. It is one thing when the client is someone who already knows you and you have a long-standing relationship with them, and quite another when they find you in some other manner and have no experience either with you, or a firm idea of what they really want/need. Working through that to an approval to proceed can be a real time eater.

As far as a client supplying materials goes, if I am doing a CNC cutting job for someone they sometimes want to drop off the material and sometimes want me to source it. In all cases I would rather do it myself and take the profit. I let them know up front that I will charge a normal material mark-up but will also get the materials delivered to me at a favorable price, so they are saving time by letting me do it. Most agree. When the job is building a sign, cabinets, or other furniture, I don't give them the option. I rarely quote per hour pricing for shop work and do so only when I want to scare the client off!

On another note, let's see that other sign finished-it looks like a real doozy.

[joe]

Excellent point about sales and invoicing. On small work like this the client isn't as involved. On this one the client dropped the old sign off and said make us another one, only dimensional. "Make it look good"!

No client will ever be as critical of my work as I am. And no piece I've ever made comes up to the standard I see in my mind. That's because the hand will never be up to the chore of illustrating what the mind can conjure. It's just like a sprinter, who knows he can go faster and do better. Not only that, I often have to rely on what "Dante" describes as the divine mistake. I see it most often during the finishing process.

I'm a firm believer in finishing. Now we see lots of routed pieces gone half finished. They just sit there, in shops around the country, like orphans half clothed and waiting to be dressed up. Once a person moves away from the computer and CNC some of the most important work begins.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[joe]

Steve,

I'm sure this sign was made from scrap. But scrap has value. Look at me, I'm nothing but scrap.

My clients will never bring in materials. That's a different class.

Joe

[bob_s]

Joe
Thanks for sharing your signage expertise

I have a couple of questions

How are you attaching the dibond to the wood and does the wood movement cause the bond to break over time with expansion and contractions
And what font is that? I really like the script feeling but it maintains great legibility
thanks
Bob

[joe]

Bob,

The font is LHF Mirage and the adhesive is E6100. It comes in calking gun size for about $6.00. It's one of the toughest adhesives I've found for this kind of application. It has a little movement to it after drying.

Joe Crumley

[blackhawk]

Joe - I agree with that around $400 is about the limit individuals are willing to pay for this type of sign. I did one similar a few weeks ago for $480. It was a little larger than yours, had a small 3D design incorporated, and had some extra painting. There are very, very few people in my area that would go over $400. Most would think that we could whip out a sign like yours for $100, which we know is impossible if you want to make a living.

Another thing that I account for is the time spent with the client. On my example above, I probably only spent 30 minutes talking with the client, so not bad. I have a sign now where I spent 2 hours working with the client. I factored that time into my price.

[bobmoore]

$100 signs are very difficult as you say for someone who owns a shop with the overhead that entails. If you work in your basement or garage with little additional overhead you might be able to make it. The inexpensive sign business is starting to get real crowded with the mini machines so I doubt it will improve soon. Bob

[kurt_rose]

I'm with Dave. Show us that Millwork sign. :D

[joe]

I think the sign your asking about is still in the works. I'll be happy to post more about that as we go along.

Joe

[genek]

Yes small home based shops can charge less, However they should be charging as if they had a large shop with employees and overhead cost.
At some point in time they will need to have employee's if they succeed, and if they have been charging low rates they will have great difficult getting the higher price. It is easy to lower your rates but when a customer or group of customers see a large increase they start complaining, and they do get mad. Most often you will lose them, even if they have to pay more from someone else. They think You have gotten greedy.

That is something as older shop owners we need to instill into the new cnc people. not to under charge. It actually Hurts all of us. The younger persons are leaving to much money on the table.

Joe Crumbly is right. His quality of work is far beyond him doing that small sign.

[dakers]

Joe I thanks for this post. The .5 hrs charged for invoice , selling time is of interest to me.
The selling time seems to be the hardest part of job for me to figure. Example many times I quote a general price but get hurt on selling time (sketches and revisions) I know ad agencies sell design time but I have never been a expert sales person to sell 8 hrs of design and revisions for some projects. When we get deposit on sign to start the design process we do better at making the sale. Very few times do we make sale with free design. When we design free we often see a cheaper sign made by others that would not compare to what we would have made but the customer does not know that. To me making signs is easy. It is the selling time that is harder to do and sell

[khaos]

Joe I thanks for this post. The .5 hrs charged for invoice , selling time is of interest to me.
The selling time seems to be the hardest part of job for me to figure. Example many times I quote a general price but get hurt on selling time (sketches and revisions) I know ad agencies sell design time but I have never been a expert sales person to sell 8 hrs of design and revisions for some projects. When we get deposit on sign to start the design process we do better at making the sale. Very few times do we make sale with free design. When we design free we often see a cheaper sign made by others that would not compare to what we would have made but the customer does not know that. To me making signs is easy. It is the selling time that is harder to do and sell

Or worse you see your design done poorly by someone else because the client shopped the drawing for bids. :(

[waynelocke]

I always charge for design time on my furniture and have few balks from clients. It is such a reasonable thing. I have at most 24 hours a day to sell. I do usually stick with my time estimate figuring that I wasn't that productive during this time or that.

I have long thought that being a lawyer is probably the best preparation for being a woodworker or sign guy. You would learn to bill every 15 minutes whether anything was accomplished or not and look them in the eye when you handed the bill.

I agree with Joe that the real work begins after the cad and cnc works ends. I am sure that sign making is similar to furniture building. At a certain level it is not so much making sure that the client is comparing apples to oranges as it is comparing golden delicious to pink lady or granny smith i.e. I try to work at a high level and if someone shops my drawings, even to a comparable artist/craftsman, the results will be very different. The client picks you on the basis of your past work and your artistic vision — though price is always in the equation.

[steve_g]

I worked for a guy who would have me make drawings and prototypes. Knowing that our customers would shop our drawings around, he would have me make errors in the drawings and have me specify exotic materials... Our quote always said "as per the sample provided you". It seemed we were always the best price!

SG

[joe]

Lets reverse the rolls for a minute.

Put yourself in the place of a new business wanting a sign. They have no idea of how to go about it or what it's going to cost. Not only that they probably aren't aware sign people have few if any credentials or license. We have sign shops opening up around the country with no experience of knowledge of anything. For that reason I'm on the side of the “New Customer”. If I were them I'd be taking drawings all over town, looking for the best price. It's just like buying a new set tires.

Who do we think we are asking for money up front for who knows what the customer is going to get!

On the other hand the sign person should be paid for their time and effort. Lets look the psychology of turning a client into a dedicated customer and friend. That's the formula to success. Each shop MUST evaluate the potential client to see if they are the kind of customer they want.

I try to access phone customers and often give them the name of other sign companies and their phone numbers they can call if it's work I don't care to do. I even give them a persons name who can help them. However, if it looks promising, I turn on the stereo "Guy Lombardo" and the dance begins. More on the “Fox Trot” later. Lets talk Money. That's what it's all about and that's what they want to know up front.

Here's Mr. Dangbank.

“We want a big sign about 20'X3' on metal or something that will last like steal.”

What kind of business are you in?

“Farm Implements”

Congratulations on the new business. I'd be glad to come out so we can talk over what you have in mind.

“Can you give me an estimate over the phone?”

I'd be happy to. If this is a wall sign It will run from $5,500.00to $8,500.00

Who in the heck knows what were doing, or materials to be used. If I make the trip to his business all that will be decided. My percentage on this type customer is excellent if the price is in the range. That's because I'm sure I can run circles around the other local bozo vinyl guys in town. With some creative lettering and good clipart this fellow seems like a good sale. But If he whines, even a little, at the price I'm giving him other peoples names to call and I hang up. I seldom price art separately. It's included in the sale price. Just like when you go to the Dentist or Doctor. Not like the plumber or electrician that lists nuts, bolts and screws.

To make a business like mine pay off, you have to loose customers. It's painful but necessary.
Joe Crumley
Normansignco.com

[genek]

I designed a sign for our local government. They took my design and had another company to bid on it. That company used my drawing and my prices and got the job. (suspect the official told them what price I gave.) I had left some money on the table with this one, knowing I was the only shop withing 3 hours drive that had a cnc. That company ended up not coming through with the sign and now our local government is having to take them to court and has charged them with fraud.

I wanted to file a claim in court, my attorney said for us to wait until they put the actual sign up that then we would go to court and give them the chance to either take it down or pay my fee plus attorney fee's. My attorney is also going to go after the company that made the sign for using my design to make the sign from. According to my attorney, when i put it finished drawing it, it was copyrighted and i owned the design and that no one else could legally use it with out my permission. Maybe if more stood up for their rights less copying would occur.

[bleeth]

Many signmakers use a formatted page, similar to an Architects layout, for design presentation that has the copyright information printed on it prominently.
While at a seminar earlier this year I asked one of the "pro's" if he would mind my taking a shot of it for reference to which he gladly agreed. It also has a space for the person receiving it to sign acceptance of the term.

For me, when doing an initial design for a client for whom I am not yet hired and feel that they are going to be shopping around, I do a fairly poor quality rough sketch on my legal pad and explain to them what I am doing while doing it, and don't let them have anything in their possession until I have received a deposit.

[joe]

Naw, You boy are loosing money and time.

Dave, If I get a sketch made by someone else, no matter how crude, it's an easy step to convert it to finished art. There's no way to conceal artwork so it can't be used.

One of the standard fool proof techniques is to price your artwork, lets say $250 and tell the client this price is included in the final sign price. Then write the disclaimer, "It's not intended to be seen by others for price quotes and if used in any way they will be charged". All drawings have the government registration mark "C" on each version of the drawing.

Going to court is a true waste of money and time. It causes hard feelings and spoils the pot.

By being clear about your policy is all you need to do.

But like I said previously I seldom do any artwork except a few thumbnails in front of the client. At that time we make lots of changes and price out the sign. I don't give anything away until the deposit of 50% is made.

A couple of weeks ago I was working with a Vet Clinic and we went through this process. He looked over my portfolio and the sketched I was making then asked if I would do the final sketched for his approval. I told him how glad I was to work with him but in order to proceed I'd need a $2000 deposit. He said," I'm not ready to commit at this time" and I left. Later on I found out he had contacted several sign companies with the same process.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[bleeth]

You and I are on the same page Joe-That's why I don't let them have the sketch. If they ask for it, I tell them I will give them a complete shop drawing for approval after the job has been contracted. There is no guarantee that they won't make their own 10 seconds after I'm out the door, but at least they have to work for it a bit!
Since this type of client for me is typically a private prospect having me come into their home or office for built in furniture pricing, it's virtually impossible to charge anything for quotes and you can't quote without a design, so prelim sketches are part of the pricing process. For commercial clients (Designers, General Contractors, etc.), they usually send me their artwork to proceed from.

[chiloquinruss]

In a past business my partner was ruthless when it came to customers trying to squeeze out another nickle. When given a quote for say $500 and the customer asked 'is that your best price?', he would lean over grab the quote, strike out the $500 and write boldly $550! :D And comment yep! Russ

[genek]

The Job I bid on was supposed to be a sealed bid with ones designs included. I had bid the sign about $500.00 over my total cost. ( I wanted the sign for the prestige of doing this one. and to establish my company in the sign business).

I got word that another company got the bid and that the county had given him my design. They published my design in the local paper after the bid was awarded. It did clearly state on my drawings that this was my design and could only be used by my company, it also showed the copyright emblem. I went to a attorney and was told to wait. Then about a month ago, it came out in the paper that the county had paid for the sign, the sign company had not delivered the sign as per the contract, and in fact the sign company could not do the sign as quoted. (they did not have a cnc) was one reason, the other.. was that they did not price out the job, and bid the job $200.00 under my bid. which if they had a cnc only left a $300.00 profit. but with them not having a cnc they were going to have to pay some big bucks. The owner of the sign company that got the bid has failed to deliver on several other signs in other counties that I had bid on. Most he had gotten 1/2 down, however on my county they have paid him in full.

I will let my attorney have his way with the county, and the sign company as he wants to. First someone let it be known what the bids were and they gave him my full design, the only change they did when the put the design in the paper was to remove my info box and statement.

I may never get a job from the county, but I bet that no one will take my design again and claim it to be theirs. I also bet this will be investigated by the state Attorney office for bid rigging.

[waynelocke]

Sign making, furniture making, et al are about problem solving within the client's budget. I do very few small couple of hundred dollar jobs and those are different but a lot of my work may have 20 or more hours of design time and I can't give that away. I always ask about the budget in the first meeting and then proceed to a design contract as quickly as possible. At the end of the design phase I deliver 3d models, dimensioned drawings, specifications and prices. I don't know how to bid something that's not designed. All I can do is agree to design and construct work to the budget.

I always put a © on my designs and contractually retain ownership but really there's not much to do about someone using them without permission. Copyright cases are not things lawyers do on consignment so the legal costs are pretty prohibitive even if you have a good case.

I designed a Communion Table for a church pastored by a college mentor of mine. My construction was more than they wanted to pay so they didn't do it. I later found out that a church member built my design. I felt a bit ripped off but my mentor never knew and would introduce me as the designer of their Communion Table.

[joe]

Wayne,

Please allow me to complement you on the beautiful quality work you make. Each piece is well thought out and finished with precise skills.

With your kind of work and the kind of clients you serve I can see the amount of time it would take to come up with a concept. For me the concept time is usually short. I'm like a fly fisherman who continually lifts his nymph from the water placing it in another spot. I love to work and need the income so the nymph has to be picked up and set down often.

I'd say about half of my sales come when the buyer see's possibilities and gets excited. I'll often have examples and start sketching as we talk. The thumbnails tilt the scales. These are similar to poetry in that it's not what's in them that counts its the imagination between the lines. Often I find it difficult to have a sign come up to the quality of a quick sketch. These things breath life. I own a Leonardo's sketch book. To me they are more alive than his sculpture.

Joe Crumley

[dakers]

Joe when I read your posts I realize you are gifted communicator and sales may be one of your gifts. Unfortunately it is not mine. However when I am working with a really good honest people I seem to do okay

[joe]

This is a little off topic since this isn't a quickie job but it's on topic from the deposit question.

A couple weeks ago, I received a call from a lady wanting a church sign. Most of the time I decline on this kind of work because churches make their decisions by committee. But this one got my attention once she told me­ they were very conservative and wanted an unconventional sign I was saddling up my horse. It was to be Greek Orthodox Christian and should reflect their traditional look. Now that really got my mind buzzing.

I remembered a little on the topic. This goes back to the fifth century better know as Byzantine and best known for their circular, gold, Icons of Jesus and Mary. They have a rich traditional look that sets them apart from any other church signs I've seen. This was during the Plato, Socrates and Aristotle period in Greece.

I don't know if this work will continue due to my price but once again, we're faced with getting money up front. Here's what I've done. With my #2 pencil I sketched out four rough drafts and the estimated costs. However I spent more time with research than I did with my drawings. Perhaps I'll post the concepts but it's too early to count my chickens.

It's doubtful the job would proceed without some kind of drawings. That's understandable since it's such an unusual kind of work than no one else is doing. But rough drawings is all I'll offer without a contract. The divining question is money. By estimating the costs, up front, is the fastest method I've come up with to see how serious they are.

Sure would be fun.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[Bob Eustace]

"A couple weeks ago, I received a call from a lady wanting a church sign. Most of the time I decline on this kind of work because churches make their decisions by committee. But this one got my attention once she told me* they were very conservative and wanted an unconventional sign I was saddling up my horse. It was to be Greek Orthodox Christian and should reflect their traditional look. Now that really got my mind buzzing."

Joe this is just so true in the real world. We recently did a sign for a committee of seven lovely ladies. We did a heap of samples BUT they decided to save costs by doing the assembly and painting themselves. They wouldnt let us outline anything but instead decided to hand rout rectangular pockets. They all loved the finished job as they all worked on it and it ended in a big story in the local rag. It is easily our worst effort this year however as the customer is 101% totally happy we are putting it down to experience and will try not to get into that situation again. Our name aint on the back! Just for the record it wasnt really installed upside down! The iPad has gone nuts again!

[joe]

Bob,

I totally agree. And I'm having a good chuckle.

It's not that all Christian churches test our temper's, but most will. That's partially due to their commetti but also there's always someone in the church, who knows a person who can save them lots of money.

It's a golden rule for most sign shops not give artwork to Home Owners Assn's or Churches. The trick is try not to make anyone unhappy. Upping a price will scare them off like RAID.


The best you can hope for is a person in charge, willing to push the job through, and take responsibility. That's rare in church work. I have two churches now, in negotiations, with a take charge fellow at the helm. We'll see what happens.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)