A new substrate for us.

[joe]

I'm always on the lookout for new sign building materials. The old favorite “Extira” is getting harder to acquire. Our local dealers are out and who knows when they will have it again. I really like that material in every way except for the weight. I've lost interest in HDU for several reasons. First off it's finicky. It doesn't like bolts, screws, or attachment to anything except itself. And it's expensive. You gotta watch out for warping also. O did I mention expensive?


Another interesting possibility is PVC. I checked on the price of 1” and it's about half the cost of HDU. Although it's also heavy, once machined down that could be reduced. I see that Gorilla Glue now has an PVC adhesive that's user friendly. No more stinky chemical smell and cleans up with water. They claim it's tougher than the material itself. The preliminary tests look very interesting. One of the advantages with PVC is it like screws and mechanical fasteners. I've found it easy to paint with most latex and acrylic materials. And there isn't all that priming to cover up the little holes we have with HDU and it's tough. The down side is you can't sand it.


I'm presently finishing up a double sided 4X10 HDU sign. I'm happy with the finished piece but, I've grown tired of HDU. I'm moving away from it. Next week I have another large two sided sign which is a replacement for a hail damaged HDU. Hail and HDU don't mix. This year we've replaced four HDU signs with this same problem. The average cost is in the 4K and up. I've never replaced a Cedar or Extira sign from hail damage. This may be my golden opportunity to give PVC a try. I'm sure hail won't have any effect on it.


Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

[GeneMpls]

I believe I have heard that PVC is used in Europe in the place of particle board
for construction. Gene

[curtiss]

Joe,

Have you started to write your book yet ?? I would think 400-500 pages would about cover the story.

As always, thanks for the information.

[joe]

Gene,

There are several artists using PVC materials as substrates in this country also. It comes in several versions. For example Ken Z. sent me a link from a company who makes their boards from recycled carpet material. However they are located in the South East without any outlets here. Ken says it's twice as strong as most other PVC boards.

I've been cutting letters with 1/2" & 3/4" from PVC materials for years without any problems. The complaint of warping has not been seen here. Well, except on the colored PVC. It'll warp for sure.

All my ground signs have depth to them. From face to face they are usually in excess of 4". Most are 5" or 6" in thickness. That means the interior of the signs will need cleats to fill in the void. That's no problem at all. My only concern is the method I'll need to use when creating the detailed profile corners .

Joe Crumley

[bleeth]

Joe:

You can sand it. I have. You can also work it with chisels, gouges, etc. You can't sandblast texture. That is what I was told by others.

Who and where in the Southeast? I know someone who lives there.

[RossMosh]

If you want to look into a new material, Corian is a good material. It's expensive but it's an option in some applications.

I am curious about your statement about PVC being half the price of HDU. From my two suppliers the pricing is Duna 15lb - Komacel - Duna 20lb. I liked working with PVC but I think I'd like it a lot more if it were cheaper.

Also, does machining time figure into your choice of material? HDU is a lot easier on bits and the machine than PVC. PVC isn't the hardest material in the world to machine but it is gummy and offers a lot more resistance than HDU.

[danhamm]

Yes I just priced 1 inch grey PVC here in Canada cost 498.00 a sheet and 172.50 shipping its more expensive than HDU.

[twelchPTM]

The only thing I don't under stand about this thread it the use of the term PVC as if it is a defined item, PVC or polyvinylchloride can be bound in so many forms it is almost mindboggling. I even have a coat that says the shell is 100% PVC. anywho... the reason I am picking at this is because I wanted to point out that there are versions of PVC sheet good available with an expanded core (almost foam like) that cuts the weight of the panel down exponentially. I can't weigh in on how well it holds up once carved because I haven't used it for anything other then cutting out basic shapes and worst of all I don't know where to get it because what I have used was in the shop long before I was and the only label identified the material but not the mfg.

[wberminio]

Hi Joe
I'm not really a sign maker,but i have been using PVC for the few exterior signs
I have been getting,
Cuts great and finishes great!

[bleeth]

Tom: That's the stuff we're talking about. It is expanded core sheet PVC so the interior is not as dense as PVC Pipe but still pretty dense and works well as sign material. Made by a bunch of folks and available in various thicknesses at plastic jobber houses like Llaird, etc.
It's still a lot heavier per sheet than HDU.

[billp]

Komatex, Komacell, Azek, Celtec,and Sintra are the more popular brand names of the material in question...

[kurt_rose]

I'm cutting custom interior 3d rosettes as I type this. The painters on the job site love them. They say they take latex paint without primer and are finishing like glass.

[zeykr]

Dave,
The stuff I told Joe about is NyloSheet from nyloboard.com which is in GA.

It's made from recycled nylon carpet and is nylon not pvc. Cuts like HDU but MUCH tougher. You can request a sample through their website.

I've been able to get small samples, but wish I had a source for sheets, think it would be an excellent sign material.

In one of the attached pictures I am holding the eagle by a very small talon and can wiggle the piece holding it that way without breaking off the talon. Try that with HDU!

[joe]

Thanks everyone for the interest in this material. Wish I could respond to all postings.

Dan H.

The material you priced is solid, type 1, and like you say it's dog gone expensive. What we're using is a cheaper version, less dense, ant runs about $150 for a 1". But that's only part of the story. PVC seems to be much more stable, tough and finishes in half the time of HDU.

Tom W.

No apology needed. I appreciate your making clear the use of the term PVC. Like you say it's probably not the best term but like Bill P. states, there are lots of manufacturers with similar products. What I'm interested in is the common material that's not so expensive. Jeesuuuh, it cuts nice and to my surprise it glue's up well with the PVC Gorilla Glue. This adhesive doesn't smell and sets up in about an hour.

We all know how well the common variety PVC accepts just about any paint but not until today did I discover how well it accepts Bondo. I'll be posting posting a few pix of hail damage to HDU. These are expensive signs I had to replace this year. Only one of them was from our shop. I'm telling everyone, hail will do serious damage to HDU.

Thanks again for the suggestions. I need them!

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[andyb]

Nyloboard is located in Covington, GA. Contact info is below.

LUCÍA LANCHBERY
Sales & Customer Service Representative
14187 Industrial Park Blvd.
Covington, GA 30014
678-625-5179 (d)
678-625-5172 (f)
NyloBoardCSR (Skype)
llanchbery@nyloboard.com


I have 15 sheets in my shop. The stuff doesn't cut too bad. The stuff that I have is 1/2" and looks like it has a fiberglass layer on both sides but I'm not sure if it is fiberglass or the nylon fibers melted. You have run a flame over it to get any bad fuzzes before you sand it. I'm cutting decorative panels for my customer.

They have been nice people to work with. I picked the material up at the factory. Interesting place.

Andy B.

[andyb]

One other thing. Nyloboard isn't cheap.

Andy B.

[bleeth]

Thanks for the contact and handling info guys. I'll follow up and play with a bit of it. Not surprised they're nice folks. Been my experience with Georgians mostly.
Post a few shots of your panels Andy-Would like to see them as they go through the stages.
Cheap is a highly relative term!!

[joe]

I spoke with Nylo's LUCIA last week and like Andy says they are nice people. Unfortunately there are no dealers close by and shipping takes it out of the ball park. She did send the prices and the cost of a .75" sheet is $160. That's in the range of Sintra, Komotex, Trovocell and the rest.

Look guys, when the router stops, the real hands on work begins and that's what costs. I'm looking for the easiest and fastest method to make signs that will last. At this time my choices are Extira, PVC and Cedar. HDU takes a back seat due to the time it takes to finish and the degree to difficulty in fabricating not to mention how delicate it is.

Perhaps another product will come on the market like Nylo Board but for now this is what we have to work with. Really can't complain when I see how expensive materials are for Dan H.

Joe Crumley

[mikeacg]

I had really good luck with Komotex when I lived in North Carolina but it is hard to get up here in the UP of Michigan. I came across a sample of Trex trim (white pvc) at the local lumberyard which they gave me to play with. It works great and they stock it in dimension lumber sizes. I buy 1 x 12 in 18' lengths for $80.95. It comes with one flat side and one side with a woodgrain texture (this works great for simple v-carved house signs). I can order larger pieces if I want to wait but I don't do a lot of signs so this is the perfect solution for my needs.

Mike