Thinking of jumping into CNC with a buddy...

[barndoor]

Hi All,
I run a one man custom cabinet/furniture/anything-you-can-make-from-wood shop, in other words a bit of everything. I am considering transitioning into CNC routing for various small parts and products with the idea that in 10 years I'm not going to want to be installing large kitchens and the like. I already make some small products that I sell on occasion and I think a CNC router could ramp up that production and make the business stand on it's own, at least I hope. I'm wondering if there is a buddy owner in the SF bay area that would be willing to have me check out their setup? Any sage advice on how this new business plan could be implemented?

[Bob Eustace]

Welcome Rick! A good way to kickstart your CNC venture super quickly would be to spend $250 with Eugene on this forum and get his hi volume patterns. Sounds like you are peas in a pod! On the Buddy it is a great beginners machine but limited on cabinet work.

[barndoor]

I'll look for Eugene, but I'm not exactly sure what hi volume patterns are. Is that newbie enough!?

I definitely do not want to do cabinet parts on the CNC. Cabinets are what I do now and I've got that dialed with a fully operational 1000 square foot shop. What i want to accomplish is working with smaller pieces. Even at my current age a 90 pound sheet of plywood is no fun to load on the panel saw, let alone the 20 required for a whole kitchen. I envision the CNC for making small solid wood parts, especially in the case of some light fixtures I make. The buddy would fit easily in the shop and get me started without a huge capital investment. If it takes off I can consider getting another machine but since this is an experiment I'd rather experiment with $10k instead of $20k. What I'm not sure about is the big picture process. Currently I think in 3d (and do CAD in 2D) and know exactly the procedures and tools I need to product a part. What I've never done, or even seen done, is taking that idea in your head, getting it in CAD, then transitioning to using the CNC rather than all the other processes I typically would have to go through to produce a quality finished product. I'm also not clear on how good a finished product a buddy can turn out. I know it won't be ready to finish, but what really are it's capabilities? THis is why I'd love to see one in action, watch it work, handle the product it routed and just get a better understanding of the process. The way I look at it I've got about 5 - 10 more years in me working the big jobs then I'd like to have something else to fall back on.

Thanks for the welcome!

[jerry_stanek]

You should start by going to the Vectric web site and downloading a trial version of Aspire and watch the tutorial videos. That will give you a good idea of what you can do

[myxpykalix]

First I would buy as big of a machine as i could afford. You limit yourself by going to a small machine and in time i think you might regret it.

However what you could do is augment your cabinet business by, for example, offering 3D carved cabinet doors that you can't do now.
I'm sure you have your shop set up so you can cut your cabinet parts, make your stiles and rails but probably can only offer raised panels for the door centers.
You could have your bot carving a 3D relief carving for the centers of the doors while you are making the cabinets.:eek:

[gc3]

millions of videos on youtube that will show you cnc routed parts for cabinets and carvings of doors

go 48 x 96 machine...I bought used pr a few years ago...been a serious $ maker

have another brand cnc that has produced product, if you are a production shop or looking to go that way...to outsource to others...

invest in a full size machine...

https://www.facebook.com/VectorStudio22

[cowboy1296]

I start cutting this today on my buddy with a 4 foot power stick. Its 24x34, once the contractor has it finished i will post real pictures.

[dana_swift]

Hello Rick- and welcome!

You are venturing into a very interesting world, and there is no perfect choice. Jack gave the best advise, which is buy the biggest machine you can afford (and have room for).

The machine comes with VCarvePro which is all the software you will need for a long time. When you are ready for more power, consider Aspire (in a year or so), or perhaps ArtCam. Both packages have their fans.

I have never regretted buying a shopbot for a single minute. Even when things were rocky at first, tech support was right there, as well as all the users of the forum. There is a tremendous amount to learn.

Go to this thread, download the document on bits. Read it, study it, it will become a primary reference manual for a while!

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showpost.php?p=128710&postcount=1

In the document about bits, you will get an introduction to spindles. Which brings up a question: Router or Spindle? Either one is a good choice. You can always upgrade to a spindle later. If you can afford one, a spindle is the better choice especially in a commercial shop such as yours.

I have been running a BT-32 for years, and never regretted the size, or "limitations", then I make mostly small parts. I have both 4' and 8' power sticks. The 8' power stick never gets used. The 4' powerstick rarely does. The 2' of motion is plenty for my needs. My situation includes access to a 4x8 gantry shopbot, that was not always the case and I never found I "had" to have one that big. It is nice even for my needs.

Your needs will be different tho. Gantry machines have many advantages over buddies, especially if there is even a "maybe" you will make cabinet parts. My bet is you will get the shopbot thinking you will only make a few parts on it based on your comment "I've got that dialed with a fully operational 1000 square foot shop." When you buy this powerful of a tool life will change. Trust me on this.

You will think "I will only make xyz on this". I thought that way. Then I found that my thinking changed. Its an expensive thing, like the folks buying the first car in their lives in the early 1900s. The game changed. It was so easy to go somewhere, it didnt require rounding up the horse, saddling, or hitching up. Just turn the crank and go. Building things on any CNC will change your operations just as much as cars did for daily living.

Get that demo. Find a way to get started you can afford. Then plan on upgrades when the machine is producing revenue. Vacuum will be something you will want, but it can wait. Get started.

Oh, that new friend that will do your demo. When things are acting strange on your new machine, that will be your best reference.

My suspicion is that in just a year or two, you are looking at the space in that shop and thinking.. how can I get another shopbot in here?

The "dial" is about to get a new setting-

D

[chiloquinruss]

I have a 48x96 and do mostly sheet work. However if I go back and look at my job log it appears that I do full size sheet work about 35% of the time. The rest (65%) are smaller jobs! Interesting. Never took the time to look before. I have a spindle which is nice for all kinds of reasons but especially for noise reasons, they are much quieter than a router. Do go to the thread on bits as was suggested. Very informative. What ever you end up with you'll love it and in a very short period of time you will asking yourself how did I ever get along with out it! :D Russ

[gene]

Of that 35 % . what percentage of income would have been lost if you had not purchased the larger machine ? I have a 48x96 and also do a fair amount of small items also . :rolleyes:

[barndoor]

GREAT advice guys! On the large vs. small machine debate, obviously I'd prefer the larger machine, or at least a full size with a fixed table. However looking back at my career I have been successful because I kept my overhead low (near zero really since my shop is on my property) and anytime I felt an upgrade in tools was needed I figured out how to purchase the machines outright without any financing. For a CNC anything larger than a buddy will get me outside that comfort zone, unless I found a used machine which doesn't seem likely. I also know enough to realize that there are lots of other things I will need to buy beyond the shopbot (a PC for example as I'm one of those MAC guys). I started my shop in a one car garage with a table saw and now have a big european panel saw that is a dream. If the CNC pays off I would have no problem upgrading in the future, or maybe running two!

The bits article was a good read and definitely took my knowledge of them to another level. Thank you! I already have a vacuum system for veneering and it will be adaptable to do vacuum clamping, should that be the chosen method.

One other thing that is bugging me is that I'm on the west coast and shopbot is FAR away. I really wish I could see these machines before I purchased. Not to mention the shipping charges are crazy. I had my 1500 pound panel saw delivered to me for $350...

[curtiss]

If you buy a buddy table, you would want to buy another table next to it to hold all your stuff...

With a large table you can Shopbot at one end and work on Christmas decorations or car repairs on the other end...

[jerry_stanek]

Also a buddy with a power stick will take up more room and be almost the same price

[Bob Eustace]

Rick - Shopbots freight and packaging is absolutely first class and I cant recall a single post here about damage. Most of us cut up the box on the CNC and use it for something else! The Buddy does sound the right machine for you. My days of lugging full sheets are well and truly over so I just dont do large jobs.

However if I had my time over I would get a 48 x 48 fixed bed as you cant do tenons and dovetails on the Buddy as there is solid metal under the deck. Swapping out power sticks isnt the piece of cake its advertised as because of the unweildy size and in our case the tolerances are tooooooo loose needing adjustment each time. Swapping tables is also hard work and if you use reference pins you loose those settings. Apart from that it is a rock solid bullet proof machine that will probably see me out!

[gene]

Bob thats very good , useful information.

[bleeth]

Rick-There are tons of bots in your neck of the woods. Ask for local demos and you should get answers. You won't have to go to NC to see one. Frankly, on my side of the country a lot of folks feel the same way about Cal tools like Laguna, but if it's the right tool for you than the shipping costs gets swallowed up by the profits in no time.

[chiloquinruss]

Rick,

http://becausewecan.org/ Oakland (really fun folks)
http://www.techshop.ws/ts_menlo_park.html Meno Park
http://www.techshop.ws/ts_sanjose.html San Jose
http://www.techshop.ws/tssf.html San Francisco

Call ShopBot they will give you a list. Russ

[barndoor]

awesome, thanks for the local links. And I think you're being kind by saying we have Laguna Tools out here. I looked at their machines briefly but really don't think they stack up to shopbot. That said if any of you on the right coast want a laguna tool I'll put it on my truck and meet you halfway if you bring a shopbot!

[myxpykalix]

Also look in the section

Let's Talk ShopBot > ShopBotter Message Boards/For Sale/Wanted - ShopBot-related items only

guys sell used machines and maybe you can find a used (bigger) machine close and apply the cost of shipping that you would save to getting a bigger unit.
Also when you buy a used unit they usually sell their copy of whatever design software they use and bits, fixtures, routers and other things you may have to budget for if you bought new. It's worth comparing new v. used

[Hoytbasses]

Here's the total rookie perspective: I teach woodworking and build guitars . We got a desktop at the school shop about 6 months ago:

My fears prior to getting the machine:

1. I'm 61, I have no CAD experience. Can my dusty brain handle the learning curve? Answer: yes! The vectric 2d software is very intuitive. My kids have taken it like ducks to water and already we're using the Bot in ways we never dreamed of! (still only one broken bit so far:)

2. I didn't want to commit a huge amount of money to our first foray into CNC on what might be a failed experiment and being a public school, we could only scrape up the money for a desktop anyhow and I thought that would be sufficient for our needs: Answer WRONG!!!!! I teach electric guitar building , acoustic guitar building and 3 generic woodworking classes. The Bot is doing something every single class. I already wish I had minimally a 4'x4' machine, a vacuum holddown system, and a little more Z travel. The good news for me is that my Principal (who is a woodworker) also sees the benefit in CNC and we're already talking about getting a bigger machine.

2. Would the students be amenable to a CNC machine? Answer: absolutamente! we're making jewelry boxes, chair parts, musical instruments, fancy schmancy signs, and on and on and on. What's especially nice is that the 'all thumbs' student who would routinely have difficulty in the wood shop very often is the biggest tech head. so with the bot, the playing field is leveled.

3. At 61, I'm on the back 9 of my career, I'm in your boat regarding what I want to do CNC wise to augment my personal guitar building business. The Buddy with a spindle is the size that will work for my small basement shop and I can see numerous (nearly infinite) ways to make $$$ in retirement.

(jeez teachers, can they ever talk!(write)?:o) so , as a total rookie, I say go for it, get a slightly bigger machine than you think you need, and have fun!

Karl Hoyt
http://www.nausetarts.org/Visual_Arts_Page/Guitar_Woodworking_Page.html

[kevin]

You mention you want to do kitchens you need a 4 by 8 we can do 35 to 40 sheets a day
Sometimes you have to get out of your comfort zone .The only thing about trying to staying in the garage after you grow out of the garage .You attract a client that's looking for bargains
Guy mention they lift the sheet there heavy. I put the sheets in front of the bot and slide it on and use a table to slide off

In kitchens the bot pays for itself its that simple .

[Tom Bachman]

Not sure that I'm qualified to jump in here and give any advice, but that's never stopped me before. :D

I, too, am a high school teacher, near the end of my (teaching) career, who just jumped into the CNC arena. I was thinking we needed, at least, a 4 x 4 router. We ran across our BT32 used (Never been used) at a great price and the school board was willing to invest that amount of money.

I have been very surprised at the work the Buddy can do. It's size is generally large enough to do what we need it to do. After using the router for about 45 minutes, I was thinking that I need one of these at home, as I do custom woodworking to augment my meager salary. I am within a few years of retirement (from teaching) and, like you, I don't want to be handling big heavy sheets of materials. I truly believe that the Buddy would be a peerfect fit into your plan. The only suggestion I would make is to go ahead and buy the BT48, as it gives you the little bit larger capacity and with the powerstick can expand the size. This is what I am looking at for myself.

The software is easy to learn, we were up and cutting within 4 hours of wheeling the machine into the shop. Go ahead and download the trial version and watch the videos.

[donnie]

I want to position the material on spoil board say at x 6 inches y 6 inches.
Would i then do a move command to x-6 y-6 inches.
How would you zero that new position with the z axis.
Would you do a z2 command. and would that be the new starting position for that piece of material
Thank you! Donnie
New to CNC

[cowboy1296]

Everyone has their preference on how they zero and every method is good, it just a matter of what you get use to.

The c-3 command is a constant, which on my table is down at the bottom left. I position my work piece anywhere I want on the table and clamp it down. Some people will work from the bottom left of their work piece, but I choose the center of my work piece. Once I know that exact center of the work piece, I mark it with a pencil and then I do a c-3 command which will zero your x and y. I then position my laser beam (that's another story or you could use a v-bit) back over the center mark on my work piece. I then make a note of the x and y values. I then do a z2 command which zeros out the x and y back over the center of your work piece. This way if you have a power failure or a lost comm, you can go back to your c3 zero position, and then using your notes on the x and y location of the center of the work piece move back to the precise center of your work piece and do another z2.. Now some people do a z-zero on the surface of the table, I choose to do it on the top/surface of the work piece. Use you zero plate and do a c-2 command. The bit will move to the surface of the plate and this should give you the precise location of the surface of your work piece. Now that said in job set up as shown In the picture the zero has be set for the top of the work piece.

I hope all of that made sense. I just finished my cardio and my heart is jumping out of my chest. Have you ever seen a fat old man do cardio at 8700 feet elevation. Trust me when I say it is not a pretty picture, plus I don't stop jiggling for 20 minutes.

[Joe Porter]

Donnie, as Rick has said, we all have our ways. When I decide I want to make a part and use the ShopBot, I have to understand the size of my machine and choose my material accordingly. As you can see in Rick's screen shot of Aspire/V-Carve Pro, the first thing I have to enter is the aforementioned material size and this must be accurate. I usually make my material a little bigger in each direction to give me room for clamps, etc. I also have to decide from what corner (of the material) or the center to make my XY start point. I also have to decide whether the Z will start from the table top or top of material. From there I make the drawing and then the toolpath and do not alter these basic settings in the design software. When I go to the machine, I take that piece of material and lay in on my table bed where it will fit within the limits of my table and in the orientation that I had in my design software. The material must be parallel to both the X and Y axis, but can be any where I want it to be. After I secure the material, I use the (K)(from the Settings drop down list) key and get the key pad command up and move my router bit to the corner of the material (or center) that I chose in the design software. Then I use the Zero drop down list and Z2(X and Y). Then I use the Cuts drop down list and do a C2 with my zero plate and zero my Z axis, just like I said in the design software. With my XY and Z zeroed according to my design software, I load my sbp part file (toolpath) and go thru the check list and hit the "Go" button. I hope this may be of some help to you...joe